Liverpool FC Forum

[DanAn]

The thing that worries me the most, is that I suspect we are about to find out one way or another. I know it's the holiday programme, but I have sensed a return to mass rotation being round the corner for a couple of weeks now. My suspicion is we are about to go on a styling spree, the likes of which we haven't seen for quite a while.

What has lead you to sense this?

Babel said rotation was a thing of the past and he was a victim of this change. Rafa has only rotated twice this year. Once when we had a rediculous number of games around October and more recently against Newcastle off a two day break.

He's shown a preference for the league title playing weak teams in cup games and even champions league. I don't see any evidence of rotation.  In short he has done everything an anti rotation advocate can hope for.

Until he actually does show some signs of a rotation policy. You're just jumping at shadows.

[Sabre]

Some good posts around here

Some of the press, and indeed some of the fans (me as a classic example) are also a little bit nervous about the remainder of this season. We now know that be it through good luck, the arrival of Riera, the fact we are a better team without Torres in it perhaps?, the arrival of a 20 million quid striker who rarely scores a goal, less rotation, coincidence or a combination of some of those factors, we are top of the league and in with a chance of winning it. Now my hunch is actually that we are a better team with Torres in it, and that the arrival of Keane so far hasn't exactly catapulted us up the table. Equally, I don't think Riera's undoubted tidiness has in itself bridged the gap, and nor do I think we've been overtly lucky either. 

I won't discuss the disclaimer because I don't want to waste one single line discussing whether you want the team to win or to lose. That's bóllocks and you don't need to clarify it.

However, I will tell you why people say IMHO "What the´fúck is the problem?".

The thing is, Mick, that in some team selections I agreed some weeks they were strange, and I couldn't understand it. Once, or twice has happened to me this season.

In the last "Crimbo Rotation Special" I think it was just that, a rotations FORCED by the fact we played 2 games in 48 hours.

So in those games, you could indeed say he got out the jail, we were a tad lucky, etc.

But, the thing is aswell, that Torres makes us better, and Rafa had to give answers to his absence a lot of weeks this season.

My point is, that when you take some isolated games, you can find and say that some team selections are strange. But, if when Torres was injured you had 1 point of difference, and now you have 3, then it means that your teams selection got something right. Some of this strange selections, had to be right in the end. Because results, over the weeks, are the bread and butter, and the whole point of team selections is to get those points. For that I think Rafa deserves some credit

BTW Bigmick, You have new posters defending rotation strongly these days , you won't be bored! (the rotation and antirotation vessels always had varying numbers in their crews!)

[bigmick]

The thing that worries me the most, is that I suspect we are about to find out one way or another. I know it's the holiday programme, but I have sensed a return to mass rotation being round the corner for a couple of weeks now. My suspicion is we are about to go on a styling spree, the likes of which we haven't seen for quite a while.

What has lead you to sense this?

I can't quite put my finger on it to be perfectly honest, it's just a feeling. I don't get involved in stats and the like so I can't quote you a killer piece of information which categoriacally proves that we've rotated more recently than we did at the start of the season, I just have a hunch that we have.

That aside though, I've never really gone in for the "2.4 changes to the team per match" method of looking at rotation. It's more complex than that in my opinion, as quite obviously rotating Dossena out of the team isn't the same as rotating Gerrard out of it. They may both count as "one change", but fairly obviously there's a World of difference between the two options (or indeed possibilities).

I take it from the slightly exasperated tone of your reply that you don't agree, that you think we are going to stick to our policy of sensible and restricted rotation. It goes without saying that I have never hoped more on this forum that I am talking total b0ll0cks and that somebody is about to prove me wrong. I hope you are right, I really do.

The trouble is though, not only did we take the fairly outlandish and off the wall decision to drop Keane*, but the result of the match was so emphatic that it may well encourage a revisiting of some of the managers more eccentric tendancies in the future. I remember commenting in the aftermath of a comfortable win at Sunderland a couple of years back with what amounted to our reserve team, that I feared the worst on the back of it. Similar noises were made when we beat somebody 5-0 a year or two back (the one where Babel scored that goal) and in both cases, the worst fears of some of us were borne out. Ever more off the wall selections followed until finally the wheels came off in no uncertain terms, resulting in extended bliiiiiiiiiips on both occasions.

I hope I'm wrong twice on this occasion, or wrong in which ever way it pans out. I hope I'm wrong firstly in my "sense" that we're about to go on a "styling" spree. I hope I'm totally wrong and we return to the settled selection mehtods which have seen us get to the top of the league and launch our first authentic title challenge under Rafa. Further, if I am right on that score and we do actually go on the aforementioned free for all, I hope I am totally wrong about the effect it will have on us. I hope it works this time, the delayed gazelle kicks in and we blow away all before us and cruise to the title success we all crave. Either way, I hope I'm wrong.

* on the Keane non-selection, much has been said. There has been some strident defence of the decision not to play him, but I think even rafa's biggest protectors would probably concede that in conventional football terms, the decision to leave him out was very unusual given the players history and form this season. I think I'm right in saying there isn't another manager in the Premiership that would have taken the same decision, in this sense it definately was outlandish and off the wall. The debate though as to whether it was either correct or justified has been done on another thread and I'm not seekign to revisit it here, although I'll happily talk about it over there if anyone's got the stomach for it.

[milou]

Some good posts around here

Some of the press, and indeed some of the fans (me as a classic example) are also a little bit nervous about the remainder of this season. We now know that be it through good luck, the arrival of Riera, the fact we are a better team without Torres in it perhaps?, the arrival of a 20 million quid striker who rarely scores a goal, less rotation, coincidence or a combination of some of those factors, we are top of the league and in with a chance of winning it. Now my hunch is actually that we are a better team with Torres in it, and that the arrival of Keane so far hasn't exactly catapulted us up the table. Equally, I don't think Riera's undoubted tidiness has in itself bridged the gap, and nor do I think we've been overtly lucky either. 

I won't discuss the disclaimer because I don't want to waste one single line discussing whether you want the team to win or to lose. That's bóllocks and you don't need to clarify it.

However, I will tell you why people say IMHO "What the´fúck is the problem?".

The thing is, Mick, that in some team selections I agreed some weeks they were strange, and I couldn't understand it. Once, or twice has happened to me this season.

In the last "Crimbo Rotation Special" I think it was just that, a rotations FORCED by the fact we played 2 games in 48 hours.

So in those games, you could indeed say he got out the jail, we were a tad lucky, etc.

But, the thing is aswell, that Torres makes us better, and Rafa had to give answers to his absence a lot of weeks this season.

My point is, that when you take some isolated games, you can find and say that some team selections are strange. But, if when Torres was injured you had 1 point of difference, and now you have 3, then it means that your teams selection got something right. Some of this strange selections, had to be right in the end. Because results, over the weeks, are the bread and butter, and the whole point of team selections is to get those points. For that I think Rafa deserves some credit

BTW Bigmick, You have new posters defending rotation strongly these days , you won't be bored! (the rotation and antirotation vessels always had varying numbers in their crews!)

I know this has been discussed over and over again.. but I just wanna reiterate that it is not easy to classify any poster into "pro" or "anti" rotationist, since noone (not even bigmick) wants the same 11 every match.. and I am equally sure noone (not even sabre) is completely happy/confident with the newcastle line-up BEFORE the match. At the end of the day, it is just how, when and at what degree we each think rotation should be done.. bcos rotation (forced or not) is a must in modern football.

Like most (if not all) fans, I fall in between.

I totally agree that Rafa is under the microscope more than other managers even EVERY team makes changes from game to game. But it is also true that he does it more "unconventionally" than others.. using unorthodox formation, putting players "out of position", rotating people "out of form", etc.

But I am 100% convinced he has LFC's best interest at heart.. bcos this is a man who walk, talk and sleep football... so any suggestions that he "rotates for fun" or he just "wants to show who is the boss" are simply idiculous IMHO.

We (me included) may not agree with all his decisions but I am certain that he will continue to use all necessary means available to all his senses to bring us success.. using all his experience, intelligence, knowledge and footballing philosophies.

Unfortunately (to some), I am afraid if you happen to disagree with some of his footballing philosophies.. that stem from deeply rooted convictions.. then you maybe disappointed (hoping that he would change any time soon). Bcos it is the same philisophies that brought him success in the first place.

I believe rotation (the way he does it) falls in this category.. although it seems that he is slowly "moderating" himself.

You just cannot teach a Communist to be a Democrat... or ask a Catholic to be an Anglican. Definitely not overnight anyway.

[bigmick]

Good post that mate, and pretty much agree with all of it. The bit that gets me is not so much that people believe in the methodology more than me (Sabre always has and we've had some brilliant debates about football) it's when people dispute your right to have an opinion at all if it doesn't coincide with their own. When they opt for insult over reason simply because they can't be bothered to debate, thats when it gets silly.

[Sabre]

That's a good post Milou, and you're right, even me, wasn't too happy with the line-up. I preffer to see Alonso Riera and Keane in the team.

But without knowing what were his reasons, what the medical staff says, I'm not able to say it's selectorial sillyness. Because I don't know all the Info, I don't watch the lads at Melwood.

So, this is where my "blind faith" comes into scene and I assume Rafa got a good reason to pick that.

Good post anyway Milou. I didn't pretend to put a label on you, to be honest, I always talked about this rotation vessels, the other ships, and the other camps with a pinch of salt. You're right though, no labels to anyone would be the best.

[bigmick]

On the question of the "reasons" for any selection, I think you have to take it as a given that all the discussions only apply if the players you are talking about are actually fit to play. Having said that, if every time the manager made a decision nobody bothered to discuss it on the grounds that "for all we know such and such could be injured", the forum would be even more pointless than it already is. Equally, if the manager makes a pronouncement about a certain players abilities, if we take it as read that he is right or telling the truth 100% of the time, then you might as well shut the forum down. Some posters take it as a personal insult to both themselves and to the manager that anybody could dare to doubt a decision. This is when you get the absolutely ridiculous argument about whether or not the poster is involved in professional football or not. Our previous manager to Rafa was employed as schoolteacher for many years, while Mourinho plied his trade as an interpreter so quite where this idea comes from is anyones guess. Come to that I don't know this but I don't even know if Rafa has worked in football all his life.

I said quite a few times during the Keane debate that obviously if he was injured, there was no debate and there isn't. If he isn't though, for me there is a debate regardless of the fact I don't "spend time in Melwood". Equally, when Rafa leaves Torres on the bench in Home matches because the other team were going to defend deep and the striker wasn't so good at playing between the lines, I reserve the right to point out that he is either spinning the press a yarn, or talking utter nonsense. You don't need to work in professional football to know that, you just need to have the slightest of clues about what you are watching.

[Sabre]

The thing is, that it's not always easy to say a player is Injured / Not injured.

Sometimes players play with pain. Sometimes, no, often. And in some situations it's worth trying giving some rest rather than making the problem worse. In a normal situation you can say Keane is better option than Kuyt. But what if Keane is dragging some pain in one of his muscles or báck?

Technically he can play, but you can wonder whether it's a good idea to give him a bit of rest as the season is long and try Kuyt.

It's this *precise* state of the players what I don't know. If I knew it, I could tell you better about it's selectorial sillyness or not.

[DanAn]

The thing that worries me the most, is that I suspect we are about to find out one way or another. I know it's the holiday programme, but I have sensed a return to mass rotation being round the corner for a couple of weeks now. My suspicion is we are about to go on a styling spree, the likes of which we haven't seen for quite a while.

What has lead you to sense this?

I can't quite put my finger on it to be perfectly honest, it's just a feeling. I don't get involved in stats and the like so I can't quote you a killer piece of information which categoriacally proves that we've rotated more recently than we did at the start of the season, I just have a hunch that we have.

That aside though, I've never really gone in for the "2.4 changes to the team per match" method of looking at rotation. It's more complex than that in my opinion, as quite obviously rotating Dossena out of the team isn't the same as rotating Gerrard out of it. They may both count as "one change", but fairly obviously there's a World of difference between the two options (or indeed possibilities).

I take it from the slightly exasperated tone of your reply that you don't agree, that you think we are going to stick to our policy of sensible and restricted rotation. It goes without saying that I have never hoped more on this forum that I am talking total b0ll0cks and that somebody is about to prove me wrong. I hope you are right, I really do.

The trouble is though, not only did we take the fairly outlandish and off the wall decision to drop Keane*, but the result of the match was so emphatic that it may well encourage a revisiting of some of the managers more eccentric tendancies in the future. I remember commenting in the aftermath of a comfortable win at Sunderland a couple of years back with what amounted to our reserve team, that I feared the worst on the back of it. Similar noises were made when we beat somebody 5-0 a year or two back (the one where Babel scored that goal) and in both cases, the worst fears of some of us were borne out. Ever more off the wall selections followed until finally the wheels came off in no uncertain terms, resulting in extended bliiiiiiiiiips on both occasions.

I hope I'm wrong twice on this occasion, or wrong in which ever way it pans out. I hope I'm wrong firstly in my "sense" that we're about to go on a "styling" spree. I hope I'm totally wrong and we return to the settled selection mehtods which have seen us get to the top of the league and launch our first authentic title challenge under Rafa. Further, if I am right on that score and we do actually go on the aforementioned free for all, I hope I am totally wrong about the effect it will have on us. I hope it works this time, the delayed gazelle kicks in and we blow away all before us and cruise to the title success we all crave. Either way, I hope I'm wrong.

* on the Keane non-selection, much has been said. There has been some strident defence of the decision not to play him, but I think even rafa's biggest protectors would probably concede that in conventional football terms, the decision to leave him out was very unusual given the players history and form this season. I think I'm right in saying there isn't another manager in the Premiership that would have taken the same decision, in this sense it definately was outlandish and off the wall. The debate though as to whether it was either correct or justified has been done on another thread and I'm not seekign to revisit it here, although I'll happily talk about it over there if anyone's got the stomach for it.

I'm always interested in what you have to say so i'm not so much exasperated as perplexed.  I also prefer a bit of common sense to mindless stats but I just don't see the rotation evidence. PSV was effectively a dead rubber so that can be excluded. Dossena had to come out after the shyte he dished up against Hull and Riera struggles to play 70 minutes so it seems perfectly logical that he was rested against Newcastle. Starting Lucas was perhaps a surprise but it isn't surprising that a few extra changes were made with such a short break.

Keane is the only change that has me scratching my head. I don't know why he dropped him it's not what I would have done but one swallow does not make a summer. You've got to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

[bigmick]

Well we both know Sabes that modern day footballers will be absolutely 100% fit rarely in a season. Really though, whether Keane is carrying a twinge or dead leg isn't really the point. My point all along has been that if Keane was left out of the team for reasons other than injury (which includes all the niggles providing they aren't of the chipped toe nail variety), then IMHO it was selectorial silliness. That we still managed to win the game comfortably is irrelevent to the point about Keane in my view, not playing him passed up an opportunity (an excellent one as it turned out) for him to build on his flourishing confidence.

Anyway we've done the Keane thing and this is the rotation thread. If he was rested/rotated for reasons other than injury, I disagree with the decision. Simple as that really.

[DanAn]

Well we both know Sabes that modern day footballers will be absolutely 100% fit rarely in a season. Really though, whether Keane is carrying a twinge or dead leg isn't really the point. My point all along has been that if Keane was left out of the team for reasons other than injury (which includes all the niggles providing they aren't of the chipped toe nail variety), then IMHO it was selectorial silliness. That we still managed to win the game comfortably is irrelevent to the point about Keane in my view, not playing him passed up an opportunity (an excellent one as it turned out) for him to build on his flourishing confidence.

Anyway we've done the Keane thing and this is the rotation thread. If he was rested/rotated for reasons other than injury, I disagree with the decision. Simple as that really.

I think most of us are with you on that one Bigmick. It will be interesting to see what hapens against Stoke. Keane could very well miss out given the preference for 4-2-3-1 and the fact Torres should return.

Which brings us back to one which still has me surprised which is  WTF did we buy Keane in the first place. Quality player but he just doesn't fit. Any wonder he's looked frustrated out there of recent. He's a player that deserves more than just a bit part.

[milou]

That's a good post Milou, and you're right, even me, wasn't too happy with the line-up. I preffer to see Alonso Riera and Keane in the team.

But without knowing what were his reasons, what the medical staff says, I'm not able to say it's selectorial sillyness. Because I don't know all the Info, I don't watch the lads at Melwood.

So, this is where my "blind faith" comes into scene and I assume Rafa got a good reason to pick that.

Good post anyway Milou. I didn't pretend to put a label on you, to be honest, I always talked about this rotation vessels, the other ships, and the other camps with a pinch of salt. You're right though, no labels to anyone would be the best.

Don't worry Sabre.. I wasn't referring to you "labeling" me. I made that comment because I don't even know whether I am pro or anti-rotation myself! 

I just know as long as Rafa is managing LFC.. there WILL be surprises from time to time.. and I WILL disagree with his decisions from time to time.. on "rotation" (discussed), transfers (selling crouch, wanting to sell alonso), treatment of certain players (pennant, babel, kuyt), etc.

I also know Rafa's time is running out fast and our patience are running thin. But I will give him my "blind faith" for as long as he is our manager... We have no choice anyway, no?! You can refuse to give him the faith today and tomorrow he is still our manager, no?!

So everytime I am in doubt, I will just tell myself this: "Bloody hell! Rafa, you better know what you are doing!" To not weaver from his own convictions (even under pressure) is the very first virtue of any great man in history.

Some fans prefer to discuss each of his decision in detail.. and I think that's perfectly fine too.. as long as it doesn't end up with unnecessary name-calling or abuse. Bcos beneath everything, we all LOVE LFC. FACT. And we (pro-R, anti-R, optimist, pessimist) will all be celebrating if we succeed in May. FACT.

There is an old saying in Chinese: "There is only a fine line between being a Genius or a Lunatic." Only time will tell which side who is the real Rafa?

So am I in the "happy clappy" or "doom & gloom" camp? I say in between again! 

[bigmick]

Keane is the only change that has me scratching my head. I don't know why he dropped him it's not what I would have done but one swallow does not make a summer. You've got to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Dan, like I say i really hope you are right. It wouldn't be by any means the first time I'm proven to be talking utter b0ll0cks, so here's hoping.

I would say this though, two things. Firstly I have become it's fair to say quite "interested" in our selection patters and methodology over the years. I have p!ssed more than a few people off as they claim I have become obsessed with the "R" word. Of all the things people have said, this is the hardest one to refute, simply because it's probably true. During the last few seasons though, I've reached the point where I can almost feel which way it's all going.

I've seen Torres dropped because he can't play betwen the lines, and then play against all the teams who defend deep thereafter. I've seen him come back from international duty and be benched, only to miraculously appear a couple of days later in an away Carling Cup tie. I've seen the farce of Fratton Park, the shambles of Sheffield United and I've got to the point where I don't need a weatherman anymore to tell me which way the winds blowing.

Unfortunately I've got a bit of history as well in temrs of predicting the managers thoughts. To hoots of derision last season I proclaimed he had seen the light. This season was ten games old and still some people were disputing it. I was right then, but I hope I'm wrong now.

I think the light was well and truly seen, but we are about to embark on the dimmer switch period, particularly once Arbeloa and Torres become available and the Real Madrid games loom into view. I think we'll be seeing the team changed much more than we have this season so far, four and five alterations per match is my guess, maybe more. We'll see.

On a slight sidenote, if we at some point see Gerrard on the right, with Alonso and Masherano centrally, Riera down the left with Keane and Torres up top I won't criticise that one.

[GYBS]

mick you seem a bit hurt etc about what happened yesterday and the day before i think , just ignore them and carry on posting , i and others enjoy what you post - may not agree with it , but you always put a lot of effort and thought into it so ignore the people that insulted you and carry on posting the good insightful posts you do .

[bigmick]

Nah not too hurt to be honest GYBS. I have been getting more flak on here during the last four weeks than I've had in the last four years, but there are plenty of new posters around and they get a bit excited I think. as long as people stick to the football and talk about that, I've never got a bother. I blame it all on Peewee, now he's fecked off there's nobody for everyone to get stuck into anymore.