Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

The disclaimer thing, besides it's tongue in cheek tone, is useful in order to make clear that I have not secret agendas  hidden in the post. No, I don't deny the obvious, and it's obvious that Rafa has changed his style of rotation to a more traditional approach. THat can't be denied.

I also agree that, the raw number of changes are not useful information to measure the seeing of light. For instance today we have rotated quite a bit, but we could have rotated more thus modifying those stats. Yet, that wouldn't mean anything in term of showing the change of style.

But there's a stat, that IMHO would be much more relevant to gather in the compilation Bob makes: the amount of minutes played as a summation. That stat at the end of the season should show significative changes. No-one in the Rafa antirotation camp says to play the same team always, but they do tend to have a favourite starting eleven, the strongest one. So it's my opinion that players like Gerrard, Mascherano, needless to say Reina, and Carraguer, should have more minutes at the end than the not starting eleven ones.

That is, if at the end of the season, I see that with this new style of rotation, our best players play much more minutes and we get good results in the league, then I'll have to admit this method allows to play your best players more time obtaining better results. That is, you'll have a convert.

In the other hand, if players at the end of the season have played similar minutes to previous seasons, it would strengthen the point that if you play too much a player, you might lose him due to injuries or needing badly a rest (and thus rotation would make sense)

I for one, will look at that stat at the end of the season, and won't have problems to declare myself antirotationist should the stats confirm what I have explained above.

[stmichael]

Amazing what being top of the League and your Champions League group does for perception of our "flaws" isn't it?

You don't hear a peep out of the media about rotation or zonal marking this season do you, despite the fact that we are still using them both?

[LegBarnes]

Amazing what being top of the League and your Champions League group does for perception of our "flaws" isn't it?

You don't hear a peep out of the media about rotation or zonal marking this season do you, despite the fact that we are still using them both?

same with any thing if it works people can't say sh*t but if it don't it opens you up.

[bigmick]

Amazing what being top of the League and your Champions League group does for perception of our "flaws" isn't it?

You don't hear a peep out of the media about rotation or zonal marking this season do you, despite the fact that we are still using them both?

Fortunately St Mike I'm not as fickle as the media, I'm still banging on about it and probably will be as long as Rafa is the manager    Although of course you're correct that Rafa "still uses them both" (so does everyone BTW, NOBODY plays the same team in every single game) fortunately he roates much less which is all any of us ever asked for.

The zonal marking is a strange one as almost every team I watch on the telly these days defends zonally to one extent or another. I think teams are getting better at it too.

It's an unfortunate fact of life that very often the team with the best defence wins the league, and to my eyes (without the aid of stats) the best defence in the league right now is Man Utd.

[Sabre]

After the last game (previous to Arsenal) I think I read somewhere that Bigmick posted that we're through the seeing the light phase, that we're into another phase.

Question: is that part of my dreams on rotation, or did I truly read it somewhere?

Probably the best thing will be Bigmick answers this. I don't agree often (on Rafa and rotation), but he's proven to me the last time he noticed a change in policy he was right. So I'd like to know if he still thinks we're coming back to Rafa rotation or not. Or to be more precise, whether we're rotating less in the same way we were rotating less at the first weeks of the competition.

On paper, I think that Alonso-Lucas, plus recovering Insua, and putting Keane back upfront might mean "over-rotation" the way it's understood here. Am I right?

Disclaimer: No second thoughts in the post, nor secret agendas, not saying we've been rotating all along, just checking what's the state of rotation and if I was dreaming when I read that we're in another phase.

[bigmick]

Well I didn't agree with the team against Arsenal, but I missed the first 20 mins of the match (middle of the night here) and also the explanations as to why the team was as is. Was Masherano injured for instance, and if not why didn't he play? Both the selections at the back I think form part of our currently available best back four, but given that why aren't they playing together more regulary? Keane up top is obviously our best available striker so there's be few who'd argue with him playing, but again why he's been left out over the last few games God only knows.

I thought Agger got a bit lost for their goal. If it wasn't to be laid at his door it is certainly a problem when one of the oppositon can hit a thirty yard ball which is in the air for a long time and a bloke stood within three yards of the two centre backs can bring it down and score. It was a fantastic finish and a great goal, but given Van Persie controlled it and took it to his right you'd even ask if Insua had been tucked in where was he? Little things like that can cost you games, and I think if the Dane and the Argentine had played more regularly, both togehter and as individuals, you have a better chance of preventing such things.

As for the "new policy" Sabes, I'm not sure either that I said it or believe it. Clearly we are seeing more changes than we saw at the start of the season, but whether it's a new policy or an adjustment of the dimmer switch I'm not sure. I am sure I don't like it and don't agree with it, but we'll see. There were four changes for the Arsenal game, and obviously if that became the norm then it would be a return to styling, and equally I's surprise nobody on here by saying that our title challenge would be over IMHO. as it is, our dodgy spell has coincided with more styling, and as I keep saying it might all be just coincidence, but then again it might not.

Broadly speaking, I think our best team (which Rafa will play, excluding Gerrard on the right) is the one which played against Arsenal (obviously with Torres to play when fit) along with Masherano for Lucas. Funnily enough I think Masherano allows us to be much more attacking, and I think he would have made a huge difference against Arsenals 10 men. IMHO we should be pretty much sticking to this team, with the occasional rest but not four changes per game.

[Sabre]

I do think that I read it somewhere, but since it wasn't in this thread, and I don't remember the context, it's unimportant. I just wanted to check what people thought about these changes.

For the record, I didn't like to see Lucas playing in that game. That said, I don't think he did a bad game, nor he's so cráp as people say. Why I don't agree? because I think Mascherano has not been spectacular, but he hasn't been bad or average whatsoever.

That is, I don't think that considering the form of both Lucas and Mascherano, the one who should play is Lucas. But that's just me.

Interestingly enough, even if Lucas played, we didn't see an inmediate come back of Alonso to defensive duties. In fact, we saw often how Lucas was behind Alonso even starting the play! which surprised me a little bit.

[JoeTerp]

I think this might be a chicken and the egg type of thing with the results and the inceased rotation. Might require more careful examination but I think we started to go  stale (as well as suffering some forced changes due to injury) before this slight increase in rotation, and then possibly we tried to shake some stuff up (mainly to try and deal with not having Torres) and then a bunch of the stuff we ahve tried hasn't worked, so we have tried other stuff.

[Bad Bob]

One of the Setanta announcers said that both Masch and Dossena were under the weather and had been left on Merseyside.  I would believe that as I can't expect Rafa preferring Lucas to Masch away at the Emirates if the Argentine's fit.

[Sabre]

I just arrived home after spending the day away and I can't wait to watch the match that I recorded on video.

But, before watching the match I wanted the usual visitors of this thread commenting the "Christmas Rotation special"

Without reading the match thread yet, and If I know anything of the position of my regular rotation posters, I guess that was a shocking team selection right? Keane out after two goals, Alonso out...

I guess that after a 1-5 you couldn't say we got out of the jail. But anyway, thoughts?

My opinion is that this is indeed a "Crimbo rotation special", that is, the special circunstances of 2 games in 48 hours have made Rafa changing the team more than we like, but I don't think that antirotationist should be nervous about it, I think he'll come back to the rotation scheme of this season.

That said, I would disagree that this "Crimbo rotation special" will break anything, nor will have consequences. THis is the bit where I'm uncertain what other members will think.

Now, I'll watch the game, then read the comments of you lot, and then post. Happy days!

[maguskwt]

Just to further Sabre's post...

A team selection like the one against Newcastle can be very easy to look at from a negative light. Some of the points of criticisms are:

- Dropping Keane when he's just started to score in the process failing to build on his confidence and form

- In addition to the above, dropping Alonso and Riera, all of who has performed brilliantly against Bolton.

- Playing Kuyt, who some view as absolutley joke of a striker, as a lone striker

- Playing Lucas, who some view as absolutely joke of a midfieldeer, as... well a central midfielder...

Now it is much harder to see the positives out of this. But if you calmed down a little bit and tried, you could most definitely see them and the rationale behind rafa's team seleciton. Did rafa indeed gamble and got out of jail even considering the performance? Is Newcastle really such a joke of a team that us peforming brilliantly has to be taken away from the team and rafa?

2 points I would like to put forward in a positive light for this team selection:

Number 1. A title challenging team cannot just rely on the first team 11. The whole squad needs to perform at a high level in order to be consistently pushing for the title. Therefore the fringe players need to know that they belong to the team. They need to feel that they have contributed to the season. What if Riera kept playing most of the games and then get injured? We will be left with a demoralised Babel who cannot be relied upon when it really counts because he's lost all interest in the team. Same goes for players like Lucas, Mascherano, Benayoun who hasn't been playing for the most part of the season so far. This game IMO just made them feel that they still belong to the team. And they did put in good performances. Even Babel will be abit more delighted after scoring that goal. All in hindsight yes I know, but could it be that rafa looks at the bigger picture more than most of us? Could it be that he knows Keane has one of those characters that even though he's been dropped/rested/injured (we don't know clearly yet) he would continue to put in spirited performances as he always has. Could it be that rafa does not trust players like Babel, Lucas, Benayoun to be as spirited as Keane? Could it be that in this instance, Rafa decided to put the collective first instead of just one player? Could it be that rafa did gamble, but a very calculated one, and not what most think as reckless one, rotating for the sake of rotation.

Number 2. Our perfomance despite the rotation looked very encouraging. Our passes were quick, smooth and sharp. Lucas, Mascherano, Gerrard, Kuyt, Benayoun all linked up very well. Hyppia put in a performance that looked like he had never been out of the team. Delayed gazelle theory? fresh from the extended rest? Desire to prove themselves? You never know. Did Hyppia forget to score with his head because he was out for so long? didnt' think so. Whatever the case it seemed to me like we pressured them non-stop, out-playing them, out-running them, winning most of the 50-50 balls. Whether it would have worked against better teams is another matter. The point again gives weight that rafa did indeed think through his strategy.

So was rafa right or wrong in putting the collective first as oppose to consideration for an individual player who is keane, if indeed he was rested or dropped and not inured? Did rafa recklessly rotated just for the sake of rotation and we got out of jail or did he do a calculated and sensible gamble which to him, he was quite sure of a victory? You will have you own opinion. I have mine. Another thought that came to me was whether rafa, sticking to a more or less settled side for half a season, now thinks that it is now time to do abit more styling? Or was it just because of this Holiday period? In any case, we are top of the league in New Year. Support the team, support the manager.    Keep the critiques coming but hopefully we can keep them sensible

Cheers and Happy New Year

[ManinRed]

I dont know if Rafa right or wrong
but i know for sure that Liverpool
is going to take the championship
My saying is based on the statistics of the
last 2 championships won when an Israeli
played for Livepool
In 1979/80 it was Avi Cohen
In 1989/90 it was Roni Rosental
lets hope 2008/09 it will be with Benayun

[milou]

I compared liverpool's & manu's line-ups for the past 2 matches:
Liverpool made 3 changes: babel in for reira, lucas in for alonso, masherano in for keane
Manu made 4 changes: rafael in for g.neville, carrick in for scholes, park in for giggs, berbatov in for tevez

& tevez, their "saviour" the match before wasn't even on the bench last night!

i know many will ague that manu has a deeper squads or better players blah blah blah.. but:

Should we really have to believe that players like fletcher, evans, rafael, park, carrick, o shea and the like are world-beaters? I mean even giggs, neville, scholes have obviously past their prime, no? Are their players really so much better than ours, esp our "reserves" (i use "reserves" bcos i know it is increasingly difficult to clearly classify them)?

Why is it that fergie can "get away" with making changes like that (mind you, they even have 1.5days more rest than us) but every time rafa made changes, the press and fans will criticize him (sometimes me included)?

Any thoughts anyone?

[bigmick]

I compared liverpool's & manu's line-ups for the past 2 matches:
Liverpool made 3 changes: babel in for reira, lucas in for alonso, masherano in for keane
Manu made 4 changes: rafael in for g.neville, carrick in for scholes, park in for giggs, berbatov in for tevez

& tevez, their "saviour" the match before wasn't even on the bench last night!

i know many will ague that manu has a deeper squads or better players blah blah blah.. but:

Should we really have to believe that players like fletcher, evans, rafael, park, carrick, o shea and the like are world-beaters? I mean even giggs, neville, scholes have obviously past their prime, no? Are their players really so much better than ours, esp our "reserves" (i use "reserves" bcos i know it is increasingly difficult to clearly classify them)?

Why is it that fergie can "get away" with making changes like that (mind you, they even have 1.5days more rest than us) but every time rafa made changes, the press and fans will criticize him (sometimes me included)?

Any thoughts anyone?

It's an interesting one Milou, this one of comparing managers and how much they change the team. There's probably something in the thought that Rafa gets picked up for his rotation more than other managers, but equally there's probably something in the notion that reputations don't make themselves.

When Vinnie Jones and Roy Keane plied their trade in the Premiership, or Patrick Viera, or even Joey Barton today, you'd hear managers talking of them being "marked men". The point being that they got booked and sent off for things which other players would get away with. There was no doubt some truth in what the managers were saying, as there's no doubt some truth in the feeling that the midia is more switched onto Rafa. Like them though, his reputation didn't make itself and I guess he's going to have to be big enough to live with the over-reactions of the press.

Some of us are fervent anti rotationers, and no doubt there are occasions when we overreact too. Contrary though to what some people on here claim, it's not because we want the team to lose, or want us to fail. The opposite is the case, I want the team to win the league and I absolutely passionately believe that the best way of achieving that is by keeping the rotation to a minimum. I also believe that playing your best fit striker during spells in which he is scoring goals is giving him the chance to play to his optimum, and then by definition the team the best chance to win the league.

We have tried the mass rotation four times now from the start of each previous Rafa season. People can draw their own conclusions as to how successful that was, but periods within that where we rotated the team, the positions players played in and the formations far more than had previously been seen in English football is what made made Rafa's reputation as a mass rotater. The reputation will no doubt be with him now as long as he is the manager, but I'm absolutely certain he is big enough and daft enough to take it on the chin.

Some of the press, and indeed some of the fans (me as a classic example) are also a little bit nervous about the remainder of this season. We now know that be it through good luck, the arrival of Riera, the fact we are a better team without Torres in it perhaps?, the arrival of a 20 million quid striker who rarely scores a goal, less rotation, coincidence or a combination of some of those factors, we are top of the league and in with a chance of winning it. Now my hunch is actually that we are a better team with Torres in it, and that the arrival of Keane so far hasn't exactly catapulted us up the table. Equally, I don't think Riera's undoubted tidiness has in itself bridged the gap, and nor do I think we've been overtly lucky either. 

It kind of goes without saying that I think the significant reduction in rotation has had a major effect in us getting ourselves to the top of the league. Not saying "it's all down to rotation" anymore than I'm saying we should play the same team in every single game, I'm simply saying that in my humble opinion, it has been a significant factor.

Now it may be (and nobody knows for certain one way or another because we haven't actually tried it yet) that if you keep a settled team to half way and get to the top of the table, the best way to stay there is to mass rotate for the rest of the season. It may be the case that as we already undoubtedly have momentum, players can slot in and out willy nilly and we'll just keep on winning. On the other hand of course, it may not.

The thing that worries me the most, is that I suspect we are about to find out one way or another. I know it's the holiday programme, but I have sensed a return to mass rotation being round the corner for a couple of weeks now. My suspicion is we are about to go on a styling spree, the likes of which we haven't seen for quite a while.

Hopefully it works, and then we can win the title and the people who are pro-rotation can have their day in the sun. I'll not mention the previous four seasons or the first half of this one, I'll happily take it on the chin while they tell me they were right all along. The trouble is though, I honestly don't think they were right all along. When they told me four seasons ago that "come the end of the season etc etc" we finished fifth in the league that year (although we did admittedly win a cup as well  ). Each season they told me that it was possible, nay probable that we'd be jumping out of our skins come the end and not to worry about the farce of Fratton Park ("but we're still unbeaten") or the shambles at Sheffield United. They told me "you're not out of the title race after eight games FFS!!!! ", but alas, we were. FFS.

And now, now when I worry we might be about to undo our good work I'm broadly told to shut the f.uck up and enjoy the fact that we're top of the league. "Don't worry FFS" , but I do worry. Decisions like leaving Keane out on the back of him scoring two goals make me worry. I only hope I'm a s right about worrying as I was about Robert Earnshaw. We'll see.

[milou]

I compared liverpool's & manu's line-ups for the past 2 matches:
Liverpool made 3 changes: babel in for reira, lucas in for alonso, masherano in for keane
Manu made 4 changes: rafael in for g.neville, carrick in for scholes, park in for giggs, berbatov in for tevez

& tevez, their "saviour" the match before wasn't even on the bench last night!

i know many will ague that manu has a deeper squads or better players blah blah blah.. but:

Should we really have to believe that players like fletcher, evans, rafael, park, carrick, o shea and the like are world-beaters? I mean even giggs, neville, scholes have obviously past their prime, no? Are their players really so much better than ours, esp our "reserves" (i use "reserves" bcos i know it is increasingly difficult to clearly classify them)?

Why is it that fergie can "get away" with making changes like that (mind you, they even have 1.5days more rest than us) but every time rafa made changes, the press and fans will criticize him (sometimes me included)?

Any thoughts anyone?

It's an interesting one Milou, this one of comparing managers and how much they change the team. There's probably something in the thought that Rafa gets picked up for his rotation more than other managers, but equally there's probably something in the notion that reputations don't make themselves.

When Vinnie Jones and Roy Keane plied their trade in the Premiership, or Patrick Viera, or even Joey Barton today, you'd hear managers talking of them being "marked men". The point being that they got booked and sent off for things which other players would get away with. There was no doubt some truth in what the managers were saying, as there's no doubt some truth in the feeling that the midia is more switched onto Rafa. Like them though, his reputation didn't make itself and I guess he's going to have to be big enough to live with the over-reactions of the press.

Some of us are fervent anti rotationers, and no doubt there are occasions when we overreact too. Contrary though to what some people on here claim, it's not because we want the team to lose, or want us to fail. The opposite is the case, I want the team to win the league and I absolutely passionately believe that the best way of achieving that is by keeping the rotation to a minimum. I also believe that playing your best fit striker during spells in which he is scoring goals is giving him the chance to play to his optimum, and then by definition the team the best chance to win the league.

We have tried the mass rotation four times now from the start of each previous Rafa season. People can draw their own conclusions as to how successful that was, but periods within that where we rotated the team, the positions players played in and the formations far more than had previously been seen in English football is what made made Rafa's reputation as a mass rotater. The reputation will no doubt be with him now as long as he is the manager, but I'm absolutely certain he is big enough and daft enough to take it on the chin.

Some of the press, and indeed some of the fans (me as a classic example) are also a little bit nervous about the remainder of this season. We now know that be it through good luck, the arrival of Riera, the fact we are a better team without Torres in it perhaps?, the arrival of a 20 million quid striker who rarely scores a goal, less rotation, coincidence or a combination of some of those factors, we are top of the league and in with a chance of winning it. Now my hunch is actually that we are a better team with Torres in it, and that the arrival of Keane so far hasn't exactly catapulted us up the table. Equally, I don't think Riera's undoubted tidiness has in itself bridged the gap, and nor do I think we've been overtly lucky either. 

It kind of goes without saying that I think the significant reduction in rotation has had a major effect in us getting ourselves to the top of the league. Not saying "it's all down to rotation" anymore than I'm saying we should play the same team in every single game, I'm simply saying that in my humble opinion, it has been a significant factor.

Now it may be (and nobody knows for certain one way or another because we haven't actually tried it yet) that if you keep a settled team to half way and get to the top of the table, the best way to stay there is to mass rotate for the rest of the season. It may be the case that as we already undoubtedly have momentum, players can slot in and out willy nilly and we'll just keep on winning. On the other hand of course, it may not.

The thing that worries me the most, is that I suspect we are about to find out one way or another. I know it's the holiday programme, but I have sensed a return to mass rotation being round the corner for a couple of weeks now. My suspicion is we are about to go on a styling spree, the likes of which we haven't seen for quite a while.

Hopefully it works, and then we can win the title and the people who are pro-rotation can have their day in the sun. I'll not mention the previous four seasons or the first half of this one, I'll happily take it on the chin while they tell me they were right all along. The trouble is though, I honestly don't think they were right all along. When they told me four seasons ago that "come the end of the season etc etc" we finished fifth in the league that year (although we did admittedly win a cup as well  ). Each season they told me that it was possible, nay probable that we'd be jumping out of our skins come the end and not to worry about the farce of Fratton Park ("but we're still unbeaten") or the shambles at Sheffield United. They told me "you're not out of the title race after eight games FFS!!!! ", but alas, we were. FFS.

And now, now when I worry we might be about to undo our good work I'm broadly told to shut the f.uck up and enjoy the fact that we're top of the league. "Don't worry FFS" , but I do worry. Decisions like leaving Keane out on the back of him scoring two goals make me worry. I only hope I'm a s right about worrying as I was about Robert Earnshaw. We'll see.

I think it is a fair concern.. a concern that I equally shared by the way. When I saw the team-sheet before the Newcastle match, I was really surprised (a little "upset" even) since 3 of our best players (arguably) from the previous match were omitted. But the fact is we won comfortably.. So rafa was RIGHT, this time at least.

But I know your (or other anti-rotationist) stand, it is the bigger picture & his subsequent actions after this match that you guys are referring to.

Like you, I am also speculating that some kind of mass rotations maybe coming up. But to my surprise, by looking at the upcoming fixtures, the risk seems lower this time (unlike previous years) bcos the matches are kinda spaced out.. we will have only about one match per week for the next 8 weeks (on 3/1, 10/1, 19/1, 27/1, 1/2, 7/2, 21/2, 25/2).

For anti-rotationist, it maybe that "stroke of luck" that you guys are hoping for.. since i cannot remember when was the last time BPL/FA fixtures are so "free". And it may just prevent some really wild rotations since Rafa can't really use fatigue as an excuse! But with Rafa, you never know!