Liverpool FC Forum

[JoeTerp]

I agree with BigMicks point in another thread in that you are better off "Whenger styling" it instead of half fringe part young reserve, that way there is no dissruption to the 1st team, and they can treat it like regular week with no game in mid-week, they can even carry on with normal training on match day.  Couldn't imagine any local player even in the U18 set up playing as poorly as Dossena did.

[calkop]

Babel, in particular, is regressing at an alarming pace and I don't see from him the attitude that suggests he'll turn it around.  We are seriously fooked if we have to rely on several of these lads for any stretch of the season.  The only bright spot, I thought, was when El Zhar played just behind Ngog and showed some tidy work on the ball in tight spaces.  I cannot get over how little bottle that group showed last night.  Rotate them into the mix?  No thanks.

I agree completely.  I said the same after the first Spurs game.  Babel looks as though he couldn't give a sh*t about anything.  Time to get what we can for him and bring in someone else who would like to make a difference.  At the moment there is no way Babel is going to force Kuyt or Riera out of the team.  He has gone steadily downhill since last year.  Someone needs to kick him in the a$$ and if he does not respond send him on down the road.  Maybe he needs a Redknapp telling him how good he is, but he is never going to get that from Rafa.

[LFC2007]

Maybe he needs a Redknapp telling him how good he is, but he is never going to get that from Rafa.

I feel a 'Stu the red' approach would be more effective.

[calkop]

I feel a 'Stu the red' approach would be more effective.

and what would that be?

[LFC2007]

I feel a 'Stu the red' approach would be more effective.

and what would that be?

'yer ya lazy , pull yer finger out yer '

[calkop]

I feel a 'Stu the red' approach would be more effective.

and what would that be?

'you're , you lazy , pull yer finger out yer '

In that case I would have to agree!  That would be my way as well.

[Bad Bob]

I feel a 'Stu the red' approach would be more effective.

and what would that be?

'yer ya lazy , pull yer finger out yer '

[bigmick]

Well I've just watched the Fulham game in its entirity, and unlike most I actually thought Lucas did OK in a neat and tidyish sort of way. I have though with regards the team selection, a couple of questions.

1. Do people think the fact that Alonso didn't start the game instead of Lucas made us more likely to win the game, less likely, or did it make absolutely no difference to our chances whatsoever?

2. Do people think the fact that Alonso didn't play the whole match but came on later on will render him sharper for the next few matches, sharper for the big matches at the end of the season, will lessen the chances of him getting injured in either the short or the long term, or will make no discernable difference whatsoever either short or long term to either his "sharpness" or his chances of getting injured?

3. Do people think the fact that Lucas played in this match, will render him fitter, "sharper", more ready to step in just in case he is actually needed at some point in the season? Do they think he needs to play occasionally for his confidence?



DISCLAIMER-Of course nobody knows for certain what the outcome would have been if anybody other than the actual team which took the field had played. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IF ALONSO HAD PLAYED WE WOULD DEFINATELY HAVE WON. In fact, I am not saying anything I am merely posing a couple of questions. Also, if you don't wish to discuss rotation then the answer is don't. There are numerous other interesting threads on the boards at the moment for you to get your teeth into. I haven't contributed to them myself for a bit so if you want to avoid me and/or this particular discussion, jog on over there would be my advice.

[Kharhaz]

1. Do people think the fact that Alonso didn't start the game instead of Lucas made us more likely to win the game, less likely, or did it make absolutely no difference to our chances whatsoever?

Torres did his best to make something happen up front but the fact is, and not for the first time this season, we have looked toothless in that department. So for me it wouldnt have made any difference. Alonso would have created the chances but nobody would be there to take them as Torres for me seemed to try to emulate the workrate of Gerrard while not have at least one person to work with with regards to positions of players in the box.

2. Do people think the fact that Alonso didn't play the whole match but came on later on will render him sharper for the next few matches, sharper for the big matches at the end of the season, will lessen the chances of him getting injured in either the short or the long term, or will make no discernable difference whatsoever either short or long term to either his "sharpness" or his chances of getting injured?

No difference for me. As for me when he did come on proves my point on your first question.

3. Do people think the fact that Lucas played in this match, will render him fitter, "sharper", more ready to step in just in case he is actually needed at some point in the season? Do they think he needs to play occasionally for his confidence?

For me, no. The lad just isnt premiership material. I like to give players a chance and I think Lucas has had more than a few chances. Aside from being the difference in that Everton match, he has offered nothing since. He has been in positions to get his head to the ball when it comes to attacking, and those he has missed. If this is the best trait we can take from Lucas, we should look for someone else to fill his place.

[Bam]

unlike most I actually thought Lucas did OK in a neat and tidyish sort of way

Sorry mate had to stop reading there. "Neat and tidyish" isnt enough to cut it at this level.

[maguskwt]

Lucas was a big reason we played how we played against fulham. But he wasn't the only reason. Keane didn't contribute much as well. Personally I would have picked Alonso and Mascherano as the central pairing and I think that we would definitely been able to impose ourselves more in the middle of the park. Having said that I can't say for sure whether we would've won or not even if Alonso played from the start. Don't think anyone can say for sure. My main disappointments for this game was Lucas and Keane. I'm not even that critical about Babel... even though he didn't make an impact when he came on, I felt that he tried to do what he could.

To go straight to the issue of rotation, rafa must have reasons for not starting with alonso. Maybe he had a good look at him and declared that maybe he wasn't 100%. It was a decent opportunity for Lucas to show what he can contribute to the team as well. Unfortunately, he didn't do a good job at doing just that. Also if Keane played better we wouldn't be just focussing on the Lucas/Alonso issue. So to all the anti-rotationists, let me ask you this question back. Is today's team selection considered 'rafa styling'? or is it a sensible rotation? After all the first 11 who played today only lacked alonso to be considered arguably the best line up we have. If you do think that it is sensible team selection, why are we talking about sharpness and freshness for Lucas and Alonso?

[Bam]

Is today's team selection considered 'rafa styling'? or is it a sensible rotation?

For me it would have to be sensible rotation.

Now Lucas did have a poor game, but Mascha, Keane, Kuyt and even Riera werent exactly miles ahead of him in their own individual performances.

I'll try and explain why I think we came unstuck. Firstly it originally goes back to Gerrard having the injury that made him pull out of the England squad. FWIW its my opinion that we should be able to beat a team like Fulham even without our captain, but thats a different debate. With Gerrard being out of this fixture St.Mike myself and a few others automatically though Rafa would go with a 4-4-2. The reason being loosing Gerrard to injury would mean a pairing of Torres and Keane upfront. Or Lucas, Mashca and Alonso in the midfield with Torres alone upfront. Considering we were playing at home against Fulham who themselves play a 4-4-2 it was fairly obvious Rafa would opt for Torres and Keane upfront.

Thats all well and good in theory, but I had reservations about the 4-4-2 formation, a formation that I like. But one that doesnt get the best out of the likes of Kuyt, Lucas and possibly Torres and Riera. I was worried that we could see a disjointed performance because of this yesterday and we did. We're in a catch 22 situation with our team at the moment and its Keane thats ultimately put us in this situation. Firstly the Irishman needs to play alongside someone, he cant operate as the lone striker in a 4-2-3-1 formation. To get the best out him he needs to play in behind Torres or even up alongside him. Keanes performances recently and his performance yesterday didnt convince me that he's playing well enough in the side to make us change our formation to accomadate him, from a 4-4-2 to a 4-2-3-1. Thats the first problem with switching back to the 4-4-2 formation. Rafa Tried Keane upfornt and played him with Torres to see if they can hit it off upfront, they still havent, but with Gerrard injured it was an easier call for Rafa to play four accross the middle.

The second problem with the 4-4-2 is the midfield and its a big problem especially if Gerrard isnt in the middle to push the team forward. The other problem is that Kuyt looks half the player he is when deployed on the right hand side of a four man midfield. Unlike the recent performance where we've seen him play a part in a three man attacking midfield where he really gets involved more, even scores a few goals and generally looks a much better threat playing in the advanced role. He isnt akin to play the more orthadox role of a RM, where for all his downfalls Pennant is better suited to play in this position but Pennant isnt good enough neither to hold down a starting spot in the team.

Then Central midfield, whether it be either two of Alonso, Mascha or Levia I dont think it would cut the mustard often enough in terms attacking play, movement and goal threat. I personally dont think playing Alonso yesterday would of made that much difference, although had Gerrard been fit and played alongside Mascha the arguement would definately hold more water as he can be that pivotal link and threat from midfield. Although I wasnt happy to see Lucas picked ahead of him I still would of had my reservations about our midfield and the central pairing especially being able to produce the one thing we lacked yesterday ...... A goal from midfield ! No doubt had Alonso started we wouldnt of been bossed as we were by Bullard and Murphy. But that doesnt necceserily mean we would of found a goal from somewhere, we've bossed many a game in midfield over the years without creating or taking our chances.

Ontop of that Rafa obviously felt that Lucas could firsltly come in and do the job (even though I know he couldnt) and secondly that he was probably alot fitter/sharper than Alonso who played midweek.
If Lucas would of played in a pairing with Mascha sitting infront of the back four with three midfielders ahead of him say Riera-Keane-Kuyt I dont think he would of been exposed to the frustration that aired around Anfield yesterday. He could of sat broke up play, and get away with a "neat and tidyish" display but in the middle of a four man midfield much more is needed from your man and he didnt provide it.

[account deleted by request]

For me it would have to be sensible rotation.

Now Lucas did have a poor game, but Mascha, Keane, Kuyt and even Riera werent exactly miles ahead of him in their own individual performances.

I'll try and explain why I think we came unstuck. Firstly it originally goes back to Gerrard having the injury that made him pull out of the England squad. FWIW its my opinion that we should be able to beat a team like Fulham even without our captain, but thats a different debate. With Gerrard being out of this fixture St.Mike myself and a few others automatically though Rafa would go with a 4-4-2. The reason being loosing Gerrard to injury would mean a pairing of Torres and Keane upfront. Or Lucas, Mashca and Alonso in the midfield with Torres alone upfront. Considering we were playing at home against Fulham who themselves play a 4-4-2 it was fairly obvious Rafa would opt for Torres and Keane upfront.

Thats all well and good in theory, but I had reservations about the 4-4-2 formation, a formation that I like. But one that doesnt get the best out of the likes of Kuyt, Lucas, Riera and frmation that could see a disjointed performance which is what we saw yesterday. We're in a catch 22 situation with our team at the moment and its Keane thats ultimately who's put us in this situation. Firstly the Irishman needs to play alongside someone, he cant operate as the lone striker in a 4-2-3-1 formation. To get the best out him he needs to play in beind Torres or even up alongside him. Keanes performances and his performance yesterday didnt convince me that he's playing well enough in the side to make us change our formation from a 4-4-2 to a 4-2-3-1. Thats the first problem with switching back to the 4-4-2 formation, try Keane and play him with Torres to see if they can hit it off upfront, they still havent but with Gerrard injured it was an easier call to play four accross the middle.

The second problem with the 4-4-2 is the midfield and its a big problem especially if Gerrard isnt in the middle to push the team forward. The other problem is that Kuyt looks half the player he is when deployed on the right hand side of a four man midfield. Unlike the recent performance where we've seen him play a part in a three man attacking midfield where he really gets involved more, even scores a few goals and generally looks a much better threat playing in the advanced role. He isnt akin to play the more orthadox role of a RM, where for all his downfalls Pennant is better suited to play in this position but Pennant isnt good enough neither to hold down a starting spot in the team.

Then Central midfield, whether it be either two of Alonso, Mascha or Levia I dont think it would cut the mustard often enough in terms attacking play, movement and goal threat. I personally dont think playing Alonso yesterday would of made that much difference, although had Gerrard been fit and played alongside Mascha the arguement would definately hold more water as he can be that pivotal link and threat from midfield. Although I wasnt happy to see Lucas picked ahead of him I still would of had my reservations about our midfield and the central pairing especially being able to produce the one thing we lacked yesterday ...... A goal from midfield ! No doubt had Alonso started we wouldnt of been bossed as we were by Bullard and Murphy. But that doesnt necceserily mean we would of found a goal from somewhere, we've bossed many a game in midfield over the years without creating or taking our chances.

Ontop of that Rafa obviously felt that Lucas could firsltly come in and do the job (even though I know he couldnt) and secondly that he was probably alot fitter/sharper than Alonso who played midweek.
If Lucas would of played in a pairing with Mascha sitting infront of the back four with three midfielders ahead of him say Riera-Keane-Kuyt I dont think he would of been exposed to the frustration that aired around Anfield yesterday. He could of sat broke up play, and get away with a "neat and tidyish" display but in the middle of a four man midfield much more is needed from your man and he didnt provide it.

Cracking post Bam, like you I prefer 4-4-2, but at present with the players we have I would have gone 4-2-3-1, and maybe if Gerrard had been fit we would have?

With Gerrard unavailable, I think Rafa had no real choice but to go 4-4-2 as our midfield is hardly full of goalscorers, with or without Alonso. So the only BIG decision was play Alonso or Lucas. Rafa went with Lucas and I was happy enough with that before the game.

I thought Lucas had a reasonable game, certainly not great , but not p!ss poor either. He put his foot in, but was a little bit sloppy at time with his passing. I still think there is a good player trying to get out, and he just needs confidence and games.

Keane on the other hand seems to be determined to prove my doubts about him right. He underhits MOST of his passes, making it difficult for the player who receives the ball to do anything with it. He runs into and fills the spaces which Torres uses , forcing Torres to play wider, where he is less threatening.

I thought it was an interesting Cameo from Alonso. The first few minutes after coming on he hit a few good passes and began to link play well. Then Andy Johnson started marking Alonso and Alonso disappeared for a while. Then either because we were getting desperate or maybe because Rafa told him, Alonso moved further forward where Johnson couldnt mark him the same and from that move, Alonso came back into the game. I know Mick has been saying it for a long while ,but today it WORKED, and is something I think Alonso should do more often.

I agree with you Bam about Kuyt, he looks a totally different player when played as a forward  in a 3 rather than as a right mid in a 4.

TBH I think when we need to play  4-4-2 again, I would prefer Kuyt partnering Torres than Keane, because at least Kuyt creates space for Torres, Keane just fills it.

Someone said it wasn't a bad result because our rivals both drew as well. Rubbish, it was a terrible result. We just can't afford to keep dropping silly points against poor sides.

[Rush Job]

Good post s@int, agree with every word.

[LFC2007]

1. Do people think the fact that Alonso didn't start the game instead of Lucas made us more likely to win the game, less likely, or did it make absolutely no difference to our chances whatsoever?

I would have thought, having seen Lucas play, Alonso's influence - particularly in the form he's in - could only have given us a better chance of winning that game. At the very least with him in the side, I suspect we would have had more of the ball and greater control of the game, and that can only increase your chances of winning. After that, who knows - he may even have made some key passes like he's been doing recently. I was disappointed not to see him start, although I do recognise he played 90' in a pointless friendly mid-week. You would also have to say, if Lucas was going to get some kind of Premier League action this year, this would be one of the games he'd be most likely to get a start, it's just a shame he didn't seem arsed for most of it.