Liverpool FC Forum

[Ciggy]

Time to get the ball rolling.

These articles are from the Irish Examiner:

A tale of two cities

By Richard Kurt and Steven Kelly
Richard Kurt: I’M NOT 100% sure this is true, but I do recall being told the new fad of genetically testing ancestral lineage was useless in the Holy Land because there is so little difference between the DNA of the Jews and Arabs there.


The phrase 'narcissism of small differences' might spring to mind at this point and I daresay it certainly applies in the north west of England when it comes to the matter of Red Mancs and Scousers.

Thirty years ago, we belonged to the same county, Lancashire.

Indeed, I remember as a teenager watching the county cricket team with Scousers alongside me at both Old Trafford and Southport.

The generation above tells me that in the '60s, there was hardly any antipathy between LFC and MUFC just a keen and largely honourable rivalry as we slugged it out head-to-head for the 1964 and 1965 titles.

Our respective Titans, Matt Busby and Bill Shankly, were like brothers; as late as the 1977 FA Cup final, United fans were chanting "Liverpool, Liverpool" in tribute to the Paisley team that was Rome-bound, on course to emulate what had been our singular 1968 triumph.

Culturally, we were once almost of a piece, jointly taking on those cocky imperial Londoners with our bands, actors, directors and assorted northern shock troops.

And there was a popular interplay between the cities which, after all, are only 30 odd miles apart much of which stemmed from the fact that mass Irish immigration underpinned the two fortresses, creating a shared family tradition if you like.

Something happened to us and now we snarl at each other, exaggerating our differences and ignoring our similarities: I think it was Thatcherism.

Both cities' proud working class bases were under the cosh but whilst Liverpool plunged into its whingeing militant-tinged psychosis, Manchester stood firm and, true to its 19th century tradition, hard-worked and free-traded its way out.

By the late '80s, the East Lancs. Road felt like what parts of Berlin must have done in the '70s: savagely divided down the middle, with two increasingly alien and hostile forces camped out at either end.

You'll note I've barely mentioned football so far.

That's because it has become about so much more.

The end of Lancashire in 1974 and the onset of Thatcher in 1979 produced a cultural and social divorce and now we sneer at Liverpool for its self-pity, its flower-wielding mawkishness, its blame and compensation culture, its drug-fuelled savagery, its relentlessly shameless self-promotion, its habit of fighting dirty.

Liverpool invented the twin-bladed, matchsticked Stanley knife, the golf ball packed with razor blades, the tactic of gangs picking off lone stragglers. To us, Liverpudlians are granny-stabbers, a single phrase that encapsulates what we see as their tribal immorality.

Of course, we are in the realm of caricature and generalisation here, just as the Scousers label us with all sorts of absurd tags of their own.

And at the self-styled more sophisticated end of fandom, clued-up casual types softly argue that Liverpool and United's top fans have far more in common with each other than they do with their own 'common masses'; the twin elites both worry and consult each other about the loss of their clubs' souls to globalisation, about the erosion of traditional ways, about the disgusting marketisation of the game.

At kick-off on Saturday, all that is forgotten of course. Tribal hatred takes over: Liverpool seek to end 85 years of Cup hurt.

We both know our history. Liverpool's sticks in our craw. The figures '18' and '5' need no translation, nor reminders. So yes, Saturday is about football, of course. But as Shanks would say, it's about much more than a mere game.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven Kelly:

EVEN CS Lewis would have read the tales of Mancunia and pronounced them far-fetched. No lion, just loads of lying.

The scientific instruments have not been invented that could measure the distance between United Myth and United Reality.

NASA are working on it. Theatre of Dreams just about covers it, but not for the reasons they think. Thank God for that 35 miles. Any closer and war would have broken out. It's a tale of jealousy, hypocrisy and spite that has stretched over decades.

Despite never dominating the English game, their air of insular contempt for every other team once knew no bounds, and they hated us most.

So when Liverpool began to dominate, the Old Trafford thought processes (there's an oxymoron) struggled with the reality, then abandoned it in five seconds and concocted their own fantastical landscape. No wonder their managers keep getting knighted, since politicians have learnt so much about spin from the Stretford sages.

Why were Liverpool so successful when United, the self-proclaimed Greatest Club In The World, were so third-rate?

Well, we were dirty. That may be seen as a surprising claim to those who witnessed their players achieve iconic status purely for the speed they could spill the blood or shatter the bones of an opposing player (and the occasional fan).

We were lucky. Again, the almost annual theft of points or a cup place that Man U inflict on us might lead to conclude that the truth was being leaned on a tad.

We were boring. This is the best of the lot, since footage proves we were nothing of the kind, but great minds on a roll cannot be stopped by a mere trifle like evidence.

No other team is allowed to have an attacking thought.

When their turn for success was made possible by our abdication, there was no relief from the spite and hatred. It just got worse.

Ferguson claimed to have knocked us off our perch, when in fact all the other big clubs were in transition. United emerged from our shadow and fought to the death with Leeds, Villa and er Blackburn. Oh tremble ye mighty ...

Aided by an obsequious press, fearful of United fans' reluctance to suffer any deviation from their warped viewpoint, Ferguson exploited the cowardice to breaking point.

When he implied Newcastle had arranged a friendly to ensure an easier ride in the title race, Keegan went ballistic. The papers congratulated Ferguson on his psychology. The fawning never stops but he just gets angrier and bullies with impunity.

Why send a journalist to press conferences? Just send a typist, the end result is the same.

He established the blueprint for modern managerial success, as it is now embellished by Mourinho. What a debt of thanks we owe.

The mythology even extends to the cities. Living in a penniless criminal hellhole as I do, I can only gaze enviously at the palaces of Manchester, junkie free and not one car missing.

And then, as an even bigger bully swiped their sweets and Liverpool roused themselves for one last European Dream, they produced a mutant offspring called FC United.

Was it Glazer who spent over £100m on four players, who spent half that on a bunch of misfits who gave the team little but at least made the manager's son a rich man? No.

But with Chelsea's wallet crushing everything in its path and United in a puny third place, some fans formed their own club because "United have sold their soul"! Priceless.

Unlike Manchester United. In 10 years we may even have two rivalries on the go, and joy will be unconfined.

If this sounds like I'm revving myself up for the cup-tie you're right. In quieter moments the quality of their play and loyalty of their hardcore is to be admired. But in the FA Cup we've always been United's bitch, and maybe a loud, venomous howl of contempt can swing it our way. See you on the barricades.

[LiverpoolMadman]

I want Liverpool to beat them but that's depends who is playing.

[red_guy]

i dont care who's gonna be playing against mancs.  No more this player's good, that player not good. We support Liverpool and we support all liverpool players. We're going to beat them!!!

[Ciggy]

I want Liverpool to beat them but that's depends who is playing.

That doesnt make one bit of sense.?

[LiverpoolMadman]

That doesnt make one bit of sense.?

Yup , Its does . A player that cant score with given a full game and the other player who have already score more than 7 goal only given last 10 min of the game, worst still he played in RM ( THAT S NOT HIS BEST POSITION).

[bigmick]

Amazing. Excellent topic starter Lynds overtaken by a fella who says he wants Liverpool to win but it depends on who's playing.

Note to Liverpool Madman- I am just about convinced that you are a Liverpool supporter and not a wind-up merchant but jeez mate you would try the patience of a saint. Here's an idea, why don't you limit yourself to say five posts a day and compress all your thoughts into those entries. Make 'em long posts where you make your case and advance your theories. Give 'em some consideration before you get stuck in. I am absolutely certain that if you did that people on here would appreciate your imput a lot more than they currently do.

As for the Liverpool Manchester rivalry, like the Liverpool Everton antagonism I think it is absolutely impossible for any of us not from Liverpool to really understand and feel it. My intense dislike of the club (not the city I've got a couple of mates from Salford, one a Man U fan and one a City) stems from the bile which Ferguson has come out with over the years. The arrogance, pomposity, double standards and blatant bad-sportsmanship he has displayed to all and sundry ensure I would wish ill on any club he managed. Mourinho would do well to look in the mirror to ensure he doesn't use up all the initial goodwill many fans felt towards him with his similar dislikeable behaviour.

[laza]

Personally thought that first article was inciteful, biased, fabricated and cheap attempt to score some cheaps shots by hiding behind im just the messenger who pointed out stereotypes

The second article was brilliant insightful and a must read and everything after that, im still trying to figure out   

[Mikz]

I can only imagine the intense rivalry that scousers feel,Im from Belfast and its tense enough here between the 2. My old man never claimed to support any team, he was just an admireer of a good side, and he always told me about the great busby side, as well as shanks teams. But even he said Ferguson was out of order  on many occasions. This man alone as doubled my hatred of them . Every player that sems to go to old trafford, becomes a thug with an attitude.
Norman Whiteside exposed ferguson for what he was .

Mick mentioned Mourinho, well i think hes already started down that path. His stupid touchline antics and failure to condemn his own players ,AND bad sportmanship towards "rival" teams is blatantly obvious. He trys to gain the support of the smaller sides and pisses over the rest.

saying all that..it adds spice. Beating him and his team will be all the sweeter

[Ciggy]

I actually dislike Everton more than Man U as they are our rivals in the city for bragging rights.
Fergusson on SSN yesterday again saying the reason he left Aberdeen to take over at Man U was because of Liverpool?
Surely the sole purpose would be for Manchester United and not because of another club winning everything.

He was saying Liverpool V Manu games are the most he looks the most forward to ? 
Surely he should have given his team the same team talk when they where on their European Adventure?

Wayne Rooney said also when asked on a scale of 1 to 10 how much it will mean to beat us on saturday he replied with 15 

Its actually Fergusson that is to blame for this bitter jealous rivalry and not the players and both sets of fans.

His famous saying my ambition was to knock liverpool off their fucking perch and you can print that, its still to be laughed at, cause guess what Alex we are back on that fucking perch.

[murphy0151]

i dont care who's gonna be playing against mancs.  No more this player's good, that player not good. We support Liverpool and we support all liverpool players. We're going to beat them!!!

Well said matey

[115-1073096938]

I actually dislike Everton more than Man U as they are our rivals in the city for bragging rights.
Fergusson on SSN yesterday again saying the reason he left Aberdeen to take over at Man U was because of Liverpool?
Surely the sole purpose would be for Manchester United and not because of another club winning everything.

He was saying Liverpool V Manu games are the most he looks the most forward to ? 
Surely he should have given his team the same team talk when they where on their European Adventure?

Wayne Rooney said also when asked on a scale of 1 to 10 how much it will mean to beat us on saturday he replied with 15 

Its actually Fergusson that is to blame for this bitter jealous rivalry and not the players and both sets of fans.

His famous saying my ambition was to knock liverpool off their fucking perch and you can print that, its still to be laughed at, cause guess what Alex we are back on that fucking perch.

Merseyside first Lyndsey. Always will be always has been.

As long as i'm alive i'll always put Liverpool above everyone, then Everton and Tranmere above everyone else.

However, its still nice seeing Everton get turned over every once in a while.

Unlike the blues i'm not bitter towards them, they can hate us all they want, they only hate us down to jealousy.

[dawson99]

they arent worth hating anymore, got more important things to worry about, like what to have for lunch

[Ciggy]

like what to have for lunch

Ive just had a bowl of Special K.

[stoney]

I want Liverpool to beat them but that's depends who is playing.

That doesnt make one bit of sense.?

None of his posts make sense.

[murphy0151]

I want Liverpool to beat them but that's depends who is playing.

That doesnt make one bit of sense.?

None of his posts make sense.

NOw, now children.