Liverpool FC Forum

[ConnO'var]

I know that this has been discussed to death as part of the discussion in other threads but I've been worrying and gnawing at this particular bone for a long time now and I'd just like to hear what the other members think of this.

I don't believe that Stevie and Xabi can play together in the middle of our midfield.

I maybe completely off-base here but it's my contention that when Rafa 1st came to Anfield, he believed that there was a very real chance that Stevie may leave. So, as one of his 1st acts, he went ahead and bought Xabi as a pivot and focal point of the team he'd planned to build... When Stevie did an about face at the eleventh hour, Rafa found himself in a bit of a quandry.... Just how do you incorporate 2 pivots into a team without stilting and upsetting the whole apple cart?

You can't possibly have 2 focal points from which to drive a team forward. Having a relatively cautious approach, I'm inclined to believe that Rafa prefers a defensive midfielder to pull the strings for his team.... so where does that leave Stevie?.....

I feel that Rafa has been struggling to find a way to incorporate/fit in Gerrard into the team without upsetting the rhythm and tempo that he prefers his teams to have, which is a more measured approach with solidity from the back.... But how do you do that without blunting Gerrard's drive and influence? Something which comes naturally to him..

Allowing Gerrard to run the show from the middle would blunt Xabi's effectiveness.... So Gerrard gets stuck out wide right. Luckily for us, he's very effective in that role though I'm one of those that personally feels he should play in the centre....

While he's effective out there, we have lost the hard-tackling, out and out box-to-box midfielder that we had previously.... a central midfielder beyond compare in the premiership and possibly the world...

In Xabi, I honestly feel that we have the most cultured, technical defensive midfielder in the premiership. He's a buy from right off the top shelf and was a steal at 10 million quid....

So why is it that we cannot seem to get the most dynamic midfielder to gel with the most technically gifted defensive midfielder in the heart of our midfield? Frankly, I'm stumped...

Is it ego? Each tries to outdo the other when they play together in the middle? Style mismatch? A need to bed-in Momo?

I just can't figure it out....
Why does it seem that Rafa does not rate this pairing and is unwilling to try and attempt to get these guys in tandem? Does he have a point?

Any other team in the premiership would be drooling all over themselves to get either or both of these guys in the heart of their teams.... So why is it that we, who are blessed with these 2, cannot seem to get the best out them together in their respective best positions?

I'd like to hear your opinions.....

[Bad Bob]

Look, I'm not having this notion that they can't play together in midfield.  Of course they can--they're top, top players who can adapt to many situations.  To play together just requires a different approach, a good deal of discipline from both and some time to gel well together on the pitch.

The way I see it, if Kaka and Pirlo can play in the same midfield, than so can Gerrard and Alonso.  Of course, Kaka and Pirlo also rely on Gattuso to bomb about and break up play, and that's where Momo comes in.  Our best midfield still includes all three but until Momo regains fitness, I expect that Gerrard and Alonso will do quite well together.

[The_Rock]

I think it is just a matter of time before gerrard and alonso gel into the best central midfield pairing in the world.

Everytime, those 2 look like they are gonna gel...something happens (injury, suspension, no RW)....and then we are back to square 1.

So my take is that, we just have to give them time to forge an understanding.

[stmichael]

The way I see it, if Kaka and Pirlo can play in the same midfield, than so can Gerrard and Alonso.  Of course, Kaka and Pirlo also rely on Gattuso to bomb about and break up play, and that's where Momo comes in.  Our best midfield still includes all three but until Momo regains fitness, I expect that Gerrard and Alonso will do quite well together.

You're right about Pirlo and Gattuso, but they have Kaka playing in front of them. Its not 4-4-2.

Kaka plays the same role as Stevie does for us when he starts on the right and he does for Brazil as well who also play with two sitting players in midfield. Essentially they have the two holding players and the likes of Seedorf and Kaka wander from starting positions each side. Or they play one up and Kaka gets to wander, they still have the two guys in the middle though.

FWIW, as I've said in other threads, for me, the natural CM partnership that we have is Sissoko and Gerrard, however there's no way that Alonso will be left out when he's fit. Alonso and Gerrard should be good enough to dominate against the majority of teams but against the very best we'll get overrun with those two in there.

[account deleted by request]

I agree with ConnO'var. I dont think its just coincidence that Gerrard starts to score and play better just as Xabi is out injured. As for Momo and Gerrard I just dont think they have the discipline required to play together. Rafa obviously agrees as they have never started a single game together in the centre.

[Bad Bob]

The way I see it, if Kaka and Pirlo can play in the same midfield, than so can Gerrard and Alonso.  Of course, Kaka and Pirlo also rely on Gattuso to bomb about and break up play, and that's where Momo comes in.  Our best midfield still includes all three but until Momo regains fitness, I expect that Gerrard and Alonso will do quite well together.

You're right about Pirlo and Gattuso, but they have Kaka playing in front of them. Its not 4-4-2.

Kaka plays the same role as Stevie does for us when he starts on the right and he does for Brazil as well who also play with two sitting players in midfield. Essentially they have the two holding players and the likes of Seedorf and Kaka wander from starting positions each side. Or they play one up and Kaka gets to wander, they still have the two guys in the middle though.

FWIW, as I've said in other threads, for me, the natural CM partnership that we have is Sissoko and Gerrard, however there's no way that Alonso will be left out when he's fit. Alonso and Gerrard should be good enough to dominate against the majority of teams but against the very best we'll get overrun with those two in there.

Good point about the Milan midfield formation but that, to me, just reinforces the point about Stevie's value from the right.  If we give him a free role, which is what he excels at, it doesn't matter if he lines up on the right for kick-off (4-4-2) or in the middle (4-5-1), so long as he gets forward and links midfield with attack.  No matter what, Stevie will spend the majority of the game in-field in advanced positions.  As such, I think we are just a much more balanced and threatening team with Sissoko and Alonso keeping the central midfield shape while Gerrard drives forward.

Having said that, Stevie's clearly had a cob on this season playing on the right and that only hurts us.  Hopefully he'll now find a rich vein of form starting in the middle and will establish a workable partnership with Alonso in Momo's absence.  Should both Gerrard and Alonso be fit and available when Momo returns, though, I hope that Stevie has the mental wherewithall to carry that form back to the right and reproduce the kind of spirited performances we saw from him last season.

[ConnO'var]

Look, I'm not having this notion that they can't play together in midfield.  Of course they can--they're top, top players who can adapt to many situations.  To play together just requires a different approach, a good deal of discipline from both and some time to gel well together on the pitch.

The way I see it, if Kaka and Pirlo can play in the same midfield, than so can Gerrard and Alonso.  Of course, Kaka and Pirlo also rely on Gattuso to bomb about and break up play, and that's where Momo comes in.  Our best midfield still includes all three but until Momo regains fitness, I expect that Gerrard and Alonso will do quite well together.

Until Momo comes back, I certainly hope you're right Bad Bob and that the 2 of them can do well together... If I remember correctly, the 2 of them were playing together in the 2004/5 season but weren't doing too well.... especially in the Champions league.... Next season, we got Momo and Rafa moved Stevie out wide..... and I think that was the last we ever saw of the 2 of them together on an extended basis.... Rafa just doesn't seem to rate the 2 of them as a pairing....

Based on their past track record, Rafa does seem to have a point.

The real question I guess, is what instructions needs to be relayed to the 2 of them to make them effective and at the same time not blunt their natural games.....?

I think that if Xabi was a little more robust, athletic and had a bit more pace on him, the partnership would work as then Gerrard's indiscipline in leaving holes when he bombs forward would not leave us so exposed.

As good as these 2 are, they need different things in order for their natural games to flourish....

Xabi needs a disciplined, physical, athletic presence next to him. Especially so in the premiership. In Europe, this is not so much a problem, as he's allowed more time on the ball.

Gerrard needs a quick, strong defensive midielder to cover up the gaps he leaves behind.... Essentially do the donkey work.

We have a player now that suits both roles pretty well but not sublimely if on his own... Momo. But not being an out-an out defensive midfielder, he suits Xabi more than Gerrard....

As you say, a triumvirate of Pirlo, Kaka and Gattuso seems to work well..... Time for us to play a 5-3-2 perhaps?

We'll need a proper right wingback in the summer though.... Finnan can do the job ok I reckon.... but no cover and a thoroughbred wingback is required in the long run for this to work well....

Until then, do we go for a 4-5-1 and neutralize our potency in attack? I hope not as we're already a little goal shy right now....

[stmichael]

I certainly think Gerrard has changed. But then, back in the old days, we used to employ a midfield whcih was almost entirely devoid of 'tricky' wide players meaning that manning the centre of the citadel was less onerous a task than if you have Gonzalez and/or Pennant on the pitch. And, of course, he was nursed by Didi or Gary Mac or sometimes both. In both the recent finals we won, Gerrard came to the fore when Hamann was on the pitch. In Istanbul, with Gerrard and Alonso central, Kaka was running riot in the first half.

Gerrard is now a fantastic attacking midfielder but he simply doesn't have the discipline to play centre mid in any game where the other side have anything like a stiff midfield. It's my hobby horse that if we could accommodate Momo, Xabi AND Gerrard in a centre-midfield trio we would have something that no team could match in that department. But it wouldn't appear that that's something that's going to happen any time soon, so I don't know what the answer is.

[Bad Bob]

Rafa obviously agrees as they have never started a single game together in the centre.

Bit of an exaggeration there, mate...

1) This season so far, they've played together 5 times (at home to PSV, Blackburn, Galatasaray and West Ham, and away to Boro).  And, yes, Momo was available for the Gala game, at least.

2) Last season they played together more frequently then people realize too.  I only have stats for the second half of the season but they're interesting: all home games (Wigan, Newcastle, West Brom, Bolton and Aston Villa).  Momo was available for a number of those games as well, as was Hamann.

So, Gerrard and Alonso have played together in the past two seasons but it's mostly been confined to home games.  I think Rafa feels that we have enough about us to dominate games at home and can rest Momo in such circumstances, even against physical teams like Bolton and Blackburn.  On the road, however, he seems to shy away from the Gerrard-Alonso CM partnership unless injuries force his hand.

[account deleted by request]

Rafa obviously agrees as they have never started a single game together in the centre.

Bit of an exaggeration there, mate...

1) This season so far, they've played together 5 times (at home to PSV, Blackburn, Galatasaray and West Ham, and away to Boro).  And, yes, Momo was available for the Gala game, at least.

2) Last season they played together more frequently then people realize too.  I only have stats for the second half of the season but they're interesting: all home games (Wigan, Newcastle, West Brom, Bolton and Aston Villa).  Momo was available for a number of those games as well, as was Hamann.

So, Gerrard and Alonso have played together in the past two seasons but it's mostly been confined to home games.  I think Rafa feels that we have enough about us to dominate games at home and can rest Momo in such circumstances, even against physical teams like Bolton and Blackburn.  On the road, however, he seems to shy away from the Gerrard-Alonso CM partnership unless injuries force his hand.

Sorry Badbob but I was talking about Momo and Gerrard not playing in the centre together NOT Xabi and Gerrard!

As for Momo and Gerrard I just dont think they have the discipline required to play together. Rafa obviously agrees as they have never started a single game together in the centre.

[Bad Bob]

Rafa obviously agrees as they have never started a single game together in the centre.

Bit of an exaggeration there, mate...

1) This season so far, they've played together 5 times (at home to PSV, Blackburn, Galatasaray and West Ham, and away to Boro).  And, yes, Momo was available for the Gala game, at least.

2) Last season they played together more frequently then people realize too.  I only have stats for the second half of the season but they're interesting: all home games (Wigan, Newcastle, West Brom, Bolton and Aston Villa).  Momo was available for a number of those games as well, as was Hamann.

So, Gerrard and Alonso have played together in the past two seasons but it's mostly been confined to home games.  I think Rafa feels that we have enough about us to dominate games at home and can rest Momo in such circumstances, even against physical teams like Bolton and Blackburn.  On the road, however, he seems to shy away from the Gerrard-Alonso CM partnership unless injuries force his hand.

Sorry Badbob but I was talking about Momo and Gerrard not playing in the centre together NOT Xabi and Gerrard!

Ahhh, many apologies Saint...the power of reading appears to have eluded me this morning.  Quite right about the Momo/Gerrard partnership.

Well, that's twenty minutes of research down the tubes!  Actually, it was interesting to see when Gerrard and Alonso have played together in the recent past.  Incidentally, we did quite well in most of those games I've named from last season so it's not like they are abyssmal together.  I suspect we'll have more than enough to overcome most of the teams we'll face in Momo's absence with those two in the centre of the park.

[67-1161385641]

Alonso and Gerrard cannot play together, you only have to look at the Champions League final to see this, it wasn't until Hamman came on and added discipline to the midfield that the huge holes Gerrard and Alonso left clear for Kaka and Pirlo to exploit closed. However saying that perhaps if they were given a run together in midfield they could forge a great partnership, but then can you see Rafa leaving out Sissoko? There is a case for the 4-5-1 formation with Gerrard playing in the hole, but I can't see that working and I cannot see many people being a fan of this formation. FWIW I don't see Gerrard and Alonso ever becoming a solid midfield pairing, it would be like playing Lampard and Gerrard for England, one of the players ability and freedom will be restricted by the other and with two players of Alonso and Gerrard's calibre you would want both of their abilities shining through.

[red37]

One thing that struck me about the whole Gerrard saga leading up to this so-called 'Renaissance' is;  When he has played centrally, there seems on the face of it to have been  a disturbing 'acceptance' from some of his team mates to let him try and do it all.  Now whether thats borne out of their instructed interpretation of the captains role..and the understanding that 'he sets the example' for them to follow.  Thereby no one taking up the initiative in times of necessity, through sheer laziness in the view that Gerrard "will bust his guts out on our behalf lads, theres no need to sweat any blood for the cause"...or, if there is indeed a problem through insolence/disrespect on their part because Gerrard dominates and overshadows their input through his own desire to win, inhibiting their game to an extent where, he alone becomes the sole beacon of hope for all concerned. Not a team mentality suitable for long term success. (and if that is the case- he should leave now). at the least, it could explain the bickering on the pitch. However, some proof of the pudding is to be found in the last two games Gerrard has featured in the middle in..This time there seemed a cohesion and understanding beginning to develop which has been missing as of late. The significance of Sissoko/Alonso's abscence has to be considered as 'one' factor, albeit an ambiguous one. But worthy of inspection, nonetheless, as 'something' has changed within the present dynamic..?

In playing him on the right of midfield, much more is asked of the rest of the team in terms of industry/drive/creativity - areas that Gerrard himself excels in. Rafa Benitez has adopted this flexible policy (imo) for two reasons:  A) to engender a sense of 'responsibility' within the rest of the ranks. (No way can he afford to lose a player of Gerrards input anywhere on a football pitch, but neither can the side carry passengers) -extra emphasis is then placed on forging team strength all-over the park, as opposed to the threat being confined within limited areas. Benitez and Liverpool FC, along with everybody who supports it, want a successful team, one that are winners from the top all the way down to the bottom of its roots..from all over the pitch. (Within the whole of its squad) Too much over reliance is placed on too few heads. (this is the clearest evidence of how Gerrards 'position' on the right is preferred by those who can see the benefit of it) Show me a winning team philosophy that solely relies on individual components. The sum of the whole, may well be in all of its parts - not anything to the contrary, as has been all too frequently evident. The only flaw in this Masterplan lies in the possibility its inception is too premature to be followed by the personel currently asked to carry it out. Leading to point B)  There simply isnt reliable cover out there at all. A short statement, but sadly an all too true one.

To summarize the above: Gerrard is effective in Central Midfield when he has equal influential support of those around him. (not in evidence previously) hence Rafa deciding to investigate alternatives. Gerrard is/was equally instrumental from -'the right'- as a viable option, when the rest of the unit is balanced (which clearly it isnt) so of course you will inevitably hear the 'war drums' calling for parity to be restored. Now that he has successfully transferred back to the middle.....suggests other areas for concern that remain to be solved. Because all of a sudden, things are beginning to appear rosy again. and whys that? -  because the real problem doesnt lie with Steve Gerrard or 'where' he's played at all......  work it out.

[A.B.]

See, the problem isn't that Gerrard doesn't have the ability to play on the right. He's a very stubborn stubborn little fecker.

He was happy to play on the right last season because it was a temporary solution, and he enjoyed himself there.

Now this year he was a miserable git [but he always is isn't he] because he was playing on the right again. Not because he coudln't do the job but because HE DIDN'T WANT TO.

Now he's saying ''look I told you play me in the middle and I'll play better''. When it has nothing to do with the position but down to him as a person.

Which is why I'm not one of his biggest fans and never will be. I've never warmed to him as some of you others have. Ever since he contemplated leaving the club I've started to care less how he feels.

Don't get me wrong I respect what he's done for us and what he will continue to do, I just don't like him. He seem to be far too naive and indecisive as a human being.

[Lando_Griffin]

See, the problem isn't that Gerrard doesn't have the ability to play on the right. He's a very stubborn stubborn little fecker.

He was happy to play on the right last season because it was a temporary solution, and he enjoyed himself there.

Now this year he was a miserable git [but he always is isn't he] because he was playing on the right again. Not because he coudln't do the job but because HE DIDN'T WANT TO.

Now he's saying ''look I told you play me in the middle and I'll play better''. When it has nothing to do with the position but down to him as a person.

Which is why I'm not one of his biggest fans and never will be. I've never warmed to him as some of you others have. Ever since he contemplated leaving the club I've started to care less how he feels.

Don't get me wrong I respect what he's done for us and what he will continue to do, I just don't like him. He seem to be far too naive and indecisive as a human being.

Exactly how I feel about him.

Have you read his book, AB? Ever since I did, he's dropped like a sack of sh*te in my estimation.

The only reason why they may not fulfill their individual promise when paired together is because they are far more suited to a 4-5-1 formation than a 4-4-2.

IF Pennant begins to show why Rafa spent so much on him, I think we will return to the boss' favourite formation. Particularly if Kewell comes back and carries his form from last season into this.

A lineup like this would get the very best out of our newly-wingered team, whilst keeping mardy-boy happy (I still personally belive that cutting in from the right is his best position. Cutting in from the left could have been even better if he'd have given it a proper try, rather than sulking like a 10 year old boy who's just had his ball burst.):

                                     Reina

          Finnan            JC             Sami              Riise

                    Alonso                           Momo
                                    Gerrard
Pennant                                                              Kewell
                           
                                      Kuyt.


I think that that is the closest we've got to Rafa's ideal team. (Momo and Alonso occupying the "2" in a 4-2-3-1 formation.)(Agger could feature at leftback, as he has better control and defensive abilities than Riise, and Aurelio is still settling.)

That would allow "Boy wonder" to feel important, and it would also allow Xabi to dictate things, as he would move more central, with Momo pushing up field hunting for the ball.

The actual system we'd use would look more like this:

                                   Reina

       Finnan      <-----JC            Sami------>     Riise
           |                   |               |                    |
           |                   V     ^       V                    |
           V                         |                              V
                         <-----Alonso----->
Pennant                         / | \         ^                        Kewell
     |\               ^         V  |   V       |                         / |
     |  \             |              |      <-- Momo-->             /  |
     |    \   <-Gerrard->       V             |                     /    |
     V     V         |\                            V                    V    V
                      |  \
                      |    \
                      V     V  <-Kuyt----->
                                     /|\
                                   V V V




Obviously, the longer the arrow, the further the player would go in that direction.

I feel that Rafa wants Alonso as the fulcrum, and is to a large extent just humouring Gerrard due to his standing with most fans. (I know he is a brilliant player before anyone starts.)

Alonso playing the "Quaterback" role made "famous" in football when Beckham tried it and failed miserably for England due to his lack of quality in that position. (Does he even know what a tackle is?)

From there, he could dictate the tempo and spread passes around the field like no-one on Earth.

Gerrard is basically free to do whatever he wants (which means he will spend all the game in the oppositions half, occasionally running back to slide in from behind and win the ball back.)

Momo basically plays as Alonso's foil, running players into him and nicking it at every opportunity.

The main attacking threat comes from the 4 men at the front - Pennant, Gerrard, Kewell and Kuyt.

There is pace there, my friends. Pace, technique and guile.

Alonso can take his pick of the runners, with Momo sheperding scutters away from the him whilst he makes the intelligent pass.

Finnan and Riise bomb on in support, with JC and Sami occupying wider positions to cover their marauding friends. Alonso drops back into the gap, and we have one heck of a wrecking machine.

Ofcourse - it all depends on what her Majesty Miss Steven Gerrard has to say about it, doesn't it?

We would rip everyone to shreds with that system.

Rafa knows it, Alonso knows it, and the rest of the squad knows it.

Pity they all have to pander to Miss Disfunction, eh?