Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

Steven's personality has no interest to me; it's what he does on the pitch that bothers me

I know where you're coming from but in a way I think his personality does effect the way he performs on the pitch at times.

Just to repeat myself. I think he's a world-class talent with a weak mentality - and that is what seperates the very best from all the rest. The top, top players never have a mental weakness that impeded their performances when fit to play. I made my assessment based upon his whole career, although I think the seasons that really count are this one and the three prior to it: they've been his injury-free years when he's really been the focal point of the Liverpool team. He's had one very good season, one sh#te one, one great season and is now in a mediocre one.

The dips always coincide with some perceived slight or problem with the way he's handled and that smacks of a very insecure man. For that reason, I can't consider him "great" yet. He seemingly can't turn the arrogant attitude into "F#ck you" performances on a consistent basis. I hope I'm proven wrong in the context of his career, but I don't think I will be.

[ConnO'var]

I never meant for this thread to turn into a "who do you think constitutes our best midfield and what's our best formation" discussion but am glad for the reasoned debate that it has generated....

At the end of the day, from most members' posts, I'm surmising that most on here agree to a greater or lesser extent that in order for Stevie and Xabi to be able to play in their respective favoured and aguably best positions, they need different things from their midfield partner. What each brings to the table do not appear to complement each other and the only way it'll be successful if Stevie was to become a more disciplined player as it's impossible for Xabi to gain the physical attributes (added pace, physical strength, athleticsm) that Stevie apparently requires from his partner...

I stil believe that Stevie is at his best in the middle and LFC performs much better due to a more agressive and threatening attacking balance when he's there... Out on the right, he leaves our right flank (and right fullback) hopelessly exposed when he's given a free reign....

So whether out right or in the centre with Xabi, the free role Stevie currently enjoys may need to be curbed just a little in a 4-4-2 formation....
Failing that, a change in formation may be required to get the best out of Stevie and fit him in the middle..... Having said that, right now, we may not have the necessary personnel to effectively employ the 4-5-1 or 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 formation that's necessary to get Momo, Xabi and Stevie in the middle of the park....

With Kewell's absence and the dissapointing performance to date of Gonzalez, Aurelio and Pennant, our flanks are just too weak at the mo to afford us the luxury of playing Stevie in the centre..... Right now, the team needs him on the right and hopefully we get Harry back soon....

May not be to the liking of all here (myself included) but IMHO, we don't have a choice right now....

[67-1161385641]

Apart from that you’re spot on with what you say Bob.

Not to be pedantic, mate, but this makes it sound like I compared Momo to Vieira in the post above, which I clearly didn't.  That was Rafa's claim but you're right in saying that's a bit OTT.  Having never seen Vieira in his younger days (nor Sissoko for that matter), I won't slate Rafa too much for making the "as teenagers" comparison but, currently, Sissoko clearly doesn't have as much in his locker as Vieira did at his age.

That's not to say that he doesn't play an important role for us and I certainly wouldn't want to leave him on the bench in games against the likes of Man U or Chelsea.  However, there is a case to be made--as Bamaga Man does--for dropping him for a number of home games, in order to get a more attack-minded team on the pitch.

I’m sorry, having re-read that it does seem as though I’ve completely misread what you’re saying. I was simply expanding on your point about Sissoko becoming a newer version of Hamann. Rafa described Sissoko as someone in the mould of Vieira and as you know a large part of Vieira’s game is being well disciplined, being strong in terms of defence and strong in terms of attack. I’ve always been confused by Rafa’s comparison and it was quite Houllier-esque from when he compared Cheyrou to Zidane.  I feel that Sissoko’s game will never mould into that of Vieira’s which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I like Sissoko because he has a rare talent of never getting tired and breaking up the oppositions engine room rather than starting our own engine room. I personally (I could be wrong) cannot see Sissoko ever being the defensive cog in our engine room, just like I cannot see him being an attacking out put of the engine room like Gerrard is. Sissoko is own his talent and should be treated as such that is the point I developed from your post, so sorry for the confusion.

You’re both right, sometimes Sissoko presence can be more of a hindrance than a help especially in build up/link up play but he is a valuable asset. I think he wouldn’t be such a problem in terms of build up play if his distribution was better. I feel his ability to break up play is always going to be useful in any match, he hassles and asks questions of the oppositions creative players early, however when he gets the ball he needs to be able to pick out players and pass the ball with success, his passing is getting better but it’s not at the standard required, but that will no doubt be worked on.

Whilst I agree with rotation of the midfield, I still feel we are one centre mid missing from this equation. The Alonso and Sissoko pairing is our most stable, how many gaps do they leave when they play? Now compare that to how many gaps Alonso and Gerrard left (Champions League final)? We needed a defensive minded player with good discipline in order to be able to lesser Sissoko’s importance to the team. The Sissoko and Alonso partnership might not be as creative as having an Alonso and Gerrard partnership, but it’s reliable, it’s worked and I don’t feel there is a need to change it until we find someone who bought the same qualities to the team as Hamann.

It makes sense to me anyway.

[67-1161385641]

Steven's personality has no interest to me; it's what he does on the pitch that bothers me

I know where you're coming from but in a way I think his personality does effect the way he performs on the pitch at times.

Just to repeat myself. I think he's a world-class talent with a weak mentality - and that is what seperates the very best from all the rest. The top, top players never have a mental weakness that impeded their performances when fit to play. I made my assessment based upon his whole career, although I think the seasons that really count are this one and the three prior to it: they've been his injury-free years when he's really been the focal point of the Liverpool team. He's had one very good season, one sh#te one, one great season and is now in a mediocre one.

The dips always coincide with some perceived slight or problem with the way he's handled and that smacks of a very insecure man. For that reason, I can't consider him "great" yet. He seemingly can't turn the arrogant attitude into "F#ck you" performances on a consistent basis. I hope I'm proven wrong in the context of his career, but I don't think I will be.

Most definitely, it’s no secret that Gerrard carries his off the pitch problems onto the pitch, it just re-enforces those people who say “he’s only human” because I feel at times (and I’m very guilty of this) people see Gerrard as a machine who carries the weight of expectation on his shoulders and he should be focused at all times and he should be constantly marshalling the team and fighting, but the fact he is extremely naive and weak minded just shows us that he is human after all.  What I meant was the fact that people are taking about Gerrard’s personality over his preferences and beliefs. What Gerrard thinks about other people doesn’t bother me, how Gerrard acts doesn’t bother me. Some people who have read his autobiography have said he is a selfish person, he’s arrogant, and he’s cocky. I don’t care about these things all I care about is what he does on the pitch and if he’s scoring goals, skippering the team the way he should, if he’s doing everything right and playing in a positive manner, I couldn’t careless what he’s like off the pitch. I don’t know him and I want to keep it that way. The only books I’ve read have been the Roy Evans biography “Ghost on the wall”, Fowler’s autobiography because I wanted to find out what really happened between him and Houllier. I’m always waiting to read the book about Bill Shankly which is written by his grand daughter. I have no interest in reading most autobiographies because I don’t care about personal lives of players.

I think Gerrard is a great player, I wouldn’t say he was the best midfielder to ever don the red shirt, that accolade lies with John Barnes IMO, but that’s neither here or there. You are right the best players in the world are those who are mentally strong, who can blot out mistakes and off the pitch problems. George Best is a prime example of this.

He’s very insecure, but I’d also say he craves attention, he wanted a new contract and when it wasn’t given to him straight away because Parry wanted a holiday (which he’s bloody well entitled to) Gerrard felt unwanted.

So I’d say it’s a mix of him being insecure and a mix of him wanted to the centre and focal point of the Liverpool team, if he’s not then he sulks. I personally feel he won’t ever over come his insecurity, it will plaque him in life, but he can’t be considered a poor player for this, his ability more than makes up for his insecurity and attention seeking ways.

[Bad Bob]

Apart from that you’re spot on with what you say Bob.

Not to be pedantic, mate, but this makes it sound like I compared Momo to Vieira in the post above, which I clearly didn't.  That was Rafa's claim but you're right in saying that's a bit OTT.  Having never seen Vieira in his younger days (nor Sissoko for that matter), I won't slate Rafa too much for making the "as teenagers" comparison but, currently, Sissoko clearly doesn't have as much in his locker as Vieira did at his age.

That's not to say that he doesn't play an important role for us and I certainly wouldn't want to leave him on the bench in games against the likes of Man U or Chelsea.  However, there is a case to be made--as Bamaga Man does--for dropping him for a number of home games, in order to get a more attack-minded team on the pitch.

I’m sorry, having re-read that it does seem as though I’ve completely misread what you’re saying. I was simply expanding on your point about Sissoko becoming a newer version of Hamann. Rafa described Sissoko as someone in the mould of Vieira and as you know a large part of Vieira’s game is being well disciplined, being strong in terms of defence and strong in terms of attack. I’ve always been confused by Rafa’s comparison and it was quite Houllier-esque from when he compared Cheyrou to Zidane.  I feel that Sissoko’s game will never mould into that of Vieira’s which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I like Sissoko because he has a rare talent of never getting tired and breaking up the oppositions engine room rather than starting our own engine room. I personally (I could be wrong) cannot see Sissoko ever being the defensive cog in our engine room, just like I cannot see him being an attacking out put of the engine room like Gerrard is. Sissoko is own his talent and should be treated as such that is the point I developed from your post, so sorry for the confusion.

You’re both right, sometimes Sissoko presence can be more of a hindrance than a help especially in build up/link up play but he is a valuable asset. I think he wouldn’t be such a problem in terms of build up play if his distribution was better. I feel his ability to break up play is always going to be useful in any match, he hassles and asks questions of the oppositions creative players early, however when he gets the ball he needs to be able to pick out players and pass the ball with success, his passing is getting better but it’s not at the standard required, but that will no doubt be worked on.

Whilst I agree with rotation of the midfield, I still feel we are one centre mid missing from this equation. The Alonso and Sissoko pairing is our most stable, how many gaps do they leave when they play? Now compare that to how many gaps Alonso and Gerrard left (Champions League final)? We needed a defensive minded player with good discipline in order to be able to lesser Sissoko’s importance to the team. The Sissoko and Alonso partnership might not be as creative as having an Alonso and Gerrard partnership, but it’s reliable, it’s worked and I don’t feel there is a need to change it until we find someone who bought the same qualities to the team as Hamann.

It makes sense to me anyway.

No worries, mate! 

I agree that Sissoko's passing needs to markedly improve for him to  truly step up for us.  Being a destroyer is very useful but the lad could offer a lot more the team going forward, given where he wins the ball a lot of the time.

Getting back to Alonso and Gerrard again, I'll reiterate that I don't seem them as the mismatch that many do.  Xabi's natural game is to distribute from deep and he's added a steely edge with his tackling that has basically made him a very cultured defensive midfielder.  He can certainly hold the fort while Gerrard bombs forward.  On the flipside, I don't think Gerrard is as undisciplined as some suggest.  Indeed, he demonstrated that last weekend, when he often hung back while Zenden pushed up.  On the few occasions a game where Xabi gets forward, I've every confidence that Gerrard will recognize the situation and drop back to cover.  They are both intelligent players and I expect that, given the chance to gel, they can dovetail very effectively.

One final word on the Champions League Final as well.  A number of people point to that game as evidence that Gerrard and Alonso don't have what it takes defensively to form a central midfield partnership.  Leaving aside the quality of the opposition for a minute--although I think most can agree that a lot of midfields will struggle to contain the likes of Kaka, Pirlo, Gattuso and Seedorf--it bears remembering that Maldini put them in front within the first 2 minutes of play, meaning that we were chasing the game and leaving spaces to exploit on the counterattack.  Indeed, their second goal was a lightning counterattack after Garcia lost possession (or was fouled in the area, depending on your view).  A lot of the lads were caught upfield and Kaka burned us with an amazing ball to Crespo.  Point is, our defensive frailties in the first half had a lot to do with chasing the game, especially given that Gerrard was the one player we were naturally looking to get forward and help get us back into the game.

[67-1161385641]

You raise some very, very good points, Bob! Xabi’s defensive game has indeed changed since he first arrived at Anfield and since the Champions League final. His defensive attributes have indeed gotten stronger, his tackling has improved drastically and as you say he’s become a cultured defensive midfielder. So perhaps him and Gerrard could work together, it would take a while for the partnership to forge. I don’t doubt Alonso’s capability, I’m confident he could well hold the fort while Gerrard bombs forward, but on the same note he also likes to get forward when possible and this leaves gaps in midfield and unless you have someone disciplined and defensive (like Hamann) playing behind him, I’m not overly confident about them two playing together. Alonso is not as disciplined as an anchorman and thus cannot ever be called one and that is something he needs to develop if him and Gerrard will ever forge a successful partnership together. Gerrard can show discipline, I’m not trying to say he doesn’t have an ounce of discipline in his game, because that is a laughable comment for anyone to make, but he likes to be involved in a lot of our play and more often than not he will move around and drift to where the ball is rather than wait to receive the ball, of course there is nothing wrong with this providing Gerrard has someone very disciplined behind him and this is an anchorman like Hamann. I don’t doubt the intelligence of either player but I can’t see Alonso and Gerrard exchanging with one another, I seem to remember Gerrard and Lampard supposedly being asked to do this under Sven and both players just wanted to surge forward constantly.  However it might well be worth a try and your post has made me warm to the possibility, but going but the current games they’ve played in (which isn’t much I’ll admit) they were quite poor together.

I agree with your points about the quality of opposition, many teams wouldn’t be able to handle Kaka, Pirlo and Gattuso. However it is not a coincidence that when Hamann came on who is very disciplined, knows what’s around him, can read the game, has the ability to shut down space that the game changed in our favour. Hamann closed the gaps that were left by Alonso and Gerrard, this then cut off the space Pirlo, Kaka and Gattuso were gifted. You are of course correct we were chasing the game, but the fundamental point of a great team is one that when chasing a game does not lose the shape of the team and is patient in their play. That is why when Hamann came on, we got the shape back and we were much patient in our play and what happened? We clawed our way back.  You’re right it wasn’t just solely down to the midfield, the first goal was down to a lack of concentration by the defence, but the reason why went down two nil and three nil is because we panicked and pushed up too much in particular Gerrard and Alonso. By doing this we allowed Kaka, Pirlo and Gattuso room to play deadly balls to Shevchenko and Crespo.

[Bad Bob]

You raise some very, very good points, Bob! Xabi’s defensive game has indeed changed since he first arrived at Anfield and since the Champions League final. His defensive attributes have indeed gotten stronger, his tackling has improved drastically and as you say he’s become a cultured defensive midfielder. So perhaps him and Gerrard could work together, it would take a while for the partnership for forge. I don’t doubt Alonso’s capability, I’m confident he could well hold the fort while Gerrard bombs forward, but on the same note he also likes to get forward when possible and this leaves gaps in midfield and unless you have someone disciplined and defensive (like Hamann) playing behind him, I’m not overly confident about them two playing together. Alonso is not as disciplined as an anchorman and thus cannot ever be called one and that is something he needs to develop if him and Gerrard will ever forge a successful partnership together. Gerrard can show discipline, I’m not trying to say he doesn’t have an ounce of discipline in his game, because that is a laughable comment for anyone to make, but he likes to be involved in a lot of our play and more often than not he will move around and drift to where the ball is rather than wait to receive the ball, of course there is nothing wrong with this providing Gerrard has someone very disciplined behind him and this is an anchorman like Hamann. I don’t doubt the intelligence of either player but I can’t see Alonso and Gerrard exchanging with one another, I seem to remember Gerrard and Lampard supposedly being asked to do this under Sven and both players just wanted to surge forward constantly.  However it might well be worth a try and your post has made me warm to the possibility, but going but the current games they’ve played in (which isn’t much I’ll admit) they were quite poor together.

I agree with your points about the quality of opposition, many teams wouldn’t be able to handle Kaka, Pirlo and Gattuso. However it is not a coincidence that when Hamann came on who is very disciplined, knows what’s around him, can read the game, has the ability to shut down space that the game changed in our favour. Hamann closed the gaps that were left by Alonso and Gerrard, this then cut off the space Pirlo, Kaka and Gattuso were gifted. You are of course correct we were chasing the game, but the fundamental point of a great team is one that when chasing a game does not lose the shape of the team and is patient in their play. That is why when Hamann came on, we got the shape back and we were much patient in our play and what happened? We clawed our way back.  You’re right it wasn’t just solely down to the midfield, the first goal was down to a lack of concentration by the defence, but the reason why went down two nil and three nil is because we panicked and pushed up too much in particular Gerrard and Alonso. By doing this we allowed Kaka, Pirlo and Gattuso room to play deadly balls to Shevchenko and Crespo.

Good points, mate, but I suppose I'm in a bit of a nit-picky mood today, so...

While I absolutely agree that Didi was a great player for us and while I also agree that Alonso does not play the same game as the German, I still think that Alonso is naturally inclined to sit deep and not go forward.  He's not at all like Lampard, who is like a poor man's Stevie--that's why the two can't work for England...Lampard has no defensive instinct whatsoever.  Alonso, on the other hand, has come on by leaps and bounds in that department to the extent that he now seems even a little hesitant to get forward.  I'm still convinced that he and Gerrard can be amazing together but the proof, they say, is in the pudding so we'll have to see how they do once Xabi's back.

Right, back to Istanbul once more.  I think it's important to remember that while Didi came on and helped us shut up shop in central midfield, we also switched to 3 at the back.  Now, this might suggest that Didi's heroics were even greater because he had one less defender behind him but, to me, it basically meant that he AND Alonso plugged up the midfield gaps while Gerrard bombed forward (compared to the first half, when Alonso was left to mind the store on his own while Gerrard went forward in search of needed goals).  Let's not discount the fact that Milan were resting on their laurels, too.  Not saying this to diminish the Kaiser's role--he was a collosus in that game--but to suggest that this is perhaps not the best game to use as a yardstick for assessing the suitability of the Gerrard-Alonso CM partnership.

[penzance-on-the-kop]

Gerrard in the centre, is his best position, he'll score goals every couple of weeks now and feeding the strikers with the killer ball. dream come true, finally

[kop11]

dont agree there pennance!  gerrard should be able to produce class from any position if he is world class! its the ballence of the team that comes first! a player is not biiger than the club! of course gerrard is amazing in center mid feild but take a look at last season! 23 from right midfield!

[crossy11]

We have 3 quality centre midfield players, but you cannot play all 3 at once, unless the formation is moved with 5 in the midfield. Who would you have in the centre midfield if there wasn't any injuries?

[Bad Bob]

Fook me, are you 3 lads attached at the hip?

[kop11]

its crossy11! goes where ever he smells class!!

[penzance-on-the-kop]

haha it looks like it Bad bob!

[crossy11]

Yeh yeh lol don't listen to them Bad bob, i know both of them. Stitching me up! haha

[Bad Bob]

Yeh yeh lol don't listen to them Bad bob, i know both of them. Stitching me up! haha

How'd I figure you lads knew each other!