Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

Good post Lando. Couple of things worry me though, who's going to get the goals? Pennant and Momo couldnt score in a brothel, and Alonso and Kewell would only get a few more. Leaves a heavy burden on Gerrard and Kuyt.

Kuyt tends to run from deep rather than being a goal poacher so most of the time we wont have anyone in the penalty area.

Yet I like the setup, very strong defensively, well balanced with good width, and Im sure they would create a lot of chances. I just feel we would struggle for goals.

I do think its ideal for away games and also when we play the top teams, maybe we could drop Pennant for the easier home matches, move Gerrard out wide, and bring Fowler or Crouch in.

[Lando_Griffin]

Good post Lando. Couple of things worry me though, who's going to get the goals? Pennant and Momo couldnt score in a brothel, and Alonso and Kewell would only get a few more. Leaves a heavy burden on Gerrard and Kuyt.

Kuyt tends to run from deep rather than being a goal poacher so most of the time we wont have anyone in the penalty area.

Yet I like the setup, very strong defensively, well balanced with good width, and Im sure they would create a lot of chances. I just feel we would struggle for goals.

I do think its ideal for away games and also when we play the top teams, maybe we could drop Pennant for the easier home matches, move Gerrard out wide, and bring Fowler or Crouch in.

That's just it, though - Kuyt would have to stop dropping deep. He would be the focal point of our attack, and between them, he and Gerrard should get 40 goals per season AT LEAST in that system.

Kewell is good for 10, Pennant 3, Alonso 3, Sami 2-5, Riise 5.

That's 60-odd goals purely from our first-choice side.

Add Crouch's 10-15, Fowler's 5-10, Garcia's 10-ish, Bellamy's 10-odd, and Agger's 5-or-so, and we're laughing.

I agree we could change the system for the "easy" games.

But on the whole, I think that is the system we should be using.

If we can get a goalscoring right-winger (or get goals from Pennant), we will be absolutely creaming teams.

The only reduction in goalscoring players is simply the lack of another striker.

I think Kuyt would REVEL in that system, which would play to his strengths, and give him the kinds of chances he was thriving on in Holland.

It's worth a shot, anyway, as it's the team Rafa has been building towards IMO.

[66-1112520797]

Most people will know that I like Stevie in the middle of the park, and couldnt really give a to$$ about his personality. He has much more influence on a game in the middle and all that malarky, and TBH I couldnt see us mustering a goal against PSV or Man.C if he was playing in his best position.
If that were Momo and Xabi in the middle there would no way be the same goal threat, but as a unit with the three of them its probably best for the team allround. In my mind though it should be upto Momo to break / force his way back into the team, not just Stevie moving aside considering and lets be honest he's the only player that really can pull a rabbit out of a hat on a consistent basis.
I just hate all this flavour of the month/season thing where if the manager says his best position, or any players best position is here most of the fans believe that and follow the managers thoughts, where personally from time to time the manager can call it wrong.................. but not in everyones eyes.
People on here slate Stevie and his attitude and " her majesty " but if ever there were a bad word or negative word spoken about Rafa those same people get on their high horse and more or less name you a traitor............ funny eh ?

[mattylfc]

Have you read his book, AB? Ever since I did, he's dropped like a sack of sh*te in my estimation.

I've read his book Lando and i havnt changed my mind about him at all. 

A few people have said similar things, what was it that made him go down in your estimations?

[stmichael]

Just on Gerrard in the centre, I'll compare him with other top central midfielders in the world today.

As a central midfielder you have the likes of Xavi, Riquelme, Juninho, Essien, possibly Fabregas. As I said above, I think when Gerrard is in form he can be one of the best in the centre, and would probably keep at least three of those out of a world eleven. His big problem for me in the centre is discipline. If he could learn when to go forward and when to stay back he could be an awesome central midfielder, but at the moment he needs somebody to mop up behind him, which is why it's only when Hamann has played with him that we've seen his very best in the big games. If he worked hard on his game though,I still think Gerrard could still be the best box to box midfielder in the world.

I may have been unfair to him on the right of midfield now I come to look at it. Beckham and Figo are fading stars, Joaquin has never delivered, Ronaldo is still young, and Robben is inconsistent. There aren't many decent right midfielders around, and on reflection I think Gerrard could probably walk into any team in the world at right midfield at the moment. Again though, his problem in this position is discipline as he drifts infield too often and leaves his fullback exposed.

If I seem harsh on Gerrard it's because I still think he could be so much of a better player than he is. He has the raw energy, fierce shot, and range of passing to be the outstanding player of his generation. He's only let down by his reading of the game and his discipline. If you look at the all-time greats in his favourite position then he still has a lot to learn, which is why, even though it's a difficult thing to say, I think he's a top class player but still not as good as he should be.

[Bad Bob]

Reina

          Finnan            JC             Sami              Riise

                    Alonso                           Momo
                                    Gerrard
Pennant                                                              Kewell
                           
                                      Kuyt

I like the look of that side, Lando.  I'd be inclined to move Agger in ahead of Sami for most games at this point, but otherwise, I'd give that team a whirl if all were fit.

There are question marks, however, and they mostly revolve around the flanks.  No one doubts whether the triumverate of Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko are up to it in the middle of the park--they would be nigh on unstoppable there if deployed in the way you are suggesting.  But, for the system to really work in attack--and by that I mean, allow players to get forward and support Kuyt--Pennant and Kewell will really need to shine.  But, there are question marks over both: is Pennant up to it and will Kewell be truly fit enough? 

These are big questions because I don't think this is a system that lends itself too well to a lot of rotation.  The 11 that play in this formation would really need to understand their own responsibilities--when to go forward and when to stay deep for the wide men, when to overlap for the fullbacks, etc.--and would have to have a very strong sense of what their teammates are doing.  Otherwise, it'll just get bogged down into being a pedestrian 4-5-1, with Kuyt isolated.

But the huge advantage of this system is that it allows Gerrard the free role he excels at, from a central position, while still selecting Alonso and Sissoko--two of our best players--to mind the engine room.  Many will baulk at the move away from the tried and tested 4-4-2 but, once clicking, this system would allow us to play our most expansive football without sacrificing the defensive solidity that has become our bread and butter over the past two years.

[Bad Bob]

Most people will know that I like Stevie in the middle of the park, and couldnt really give a to$$ about his personality. He has much more influence on a game in the middle and all that malarky, and TBH I couldnt see us mustering a goal against PSV or Man.C if he was playing in his best position.
If that were Momo and Xabi in the middle there would no way be the same goal threat, but as a unit with the three of them its probably best for the team allround. In my mind though it should be upto Momo to break / force his way back into the team, not just Stevie moving aside considering and lets be honest he's the only player that really can pull a rabbit out of a hat on a consistent basis.
I just hate all this flavour of the month/season thing where if the manager says his best position, or any players best position is here most of the fans believe that and follow the managers thoughts, where personally from time to time the manager can call it wrong.................. but not in everyones eyes.
People on here slate Stevie and his attitude and " her majesty " but if ever there were a bad word or negative word spoken about Rafa those same people get on their high horse and more or less name you a traitor............ funny eh ?

Good point, in fairness, mate.  To me, they're both right, in important ways.

When Rafa stays that Stevie is a tremendous asset on the right, he's speaking about games where we are controlling the midfield and feeding him the ball without difficulty.  Those are the games where he's everywhere on the pitch, driving the team forward, breaking into the box and scoring goals.  Of course, when he's in that mood, right back could be his starting position and he'd still play out of his skin!  If Rafa could bottle this formula and uncork it every game he definitely would, because it allows him solidity in CM while releasing Gerrard to play the free role that he excels at.

But, there are games where we struggle to control the midfield and find it hard to feed Stevie the ball.  In those games he can look pretty isolated out on the right (or left).  These are the games where you would prefer him in the centre of the park, where you know he's going to get the touches he needs to influence the game.  This is why I understand Stevie's point when he says he'd prefer to play in the middle: in his preferred position, he can be guaranteed an influence on the game.

Trouble is, it's sometimes hard to know what kind of game it will be when we line up at kick-off.  Moreover, with Pennant blowing hot and cold so far, it's hard to justify sitting Momo or Alonso down so that Gerrard can start in the middle and Pennant on the right.

This is why I think a 4-5-1/4-3-3 is an option worth reconsidering.  With Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko all selected in central roles, we can guarantee Stevie the influence on the game he craves (in an advanced, attacking role), while keeping the solidity of the Sissoko/Alonso pairing on the pitch.  If Pennant struggles in this formation, Gerrard can help him by creating space or providing another outlet (as well as tracking back defensively if Pennant gets stranded upfield).  If we're controlling central midfield but our wide-players are letting us down, we can always revert to a 4-4-2 and push Stevie into a wider role, with a 2nd striker coming in.

[stmichael]

i like the idea of 4-3-3 but i still don't think we have the ideal player to play on the right hand side of the front 3. garcia could do this role (he played there for spain in the world cup) but he still lacks pace. however he offers far more of a goal threat that pennant and in a 4-3-3, all your front three need to be able to score goals. kewell is ideal on the left in this formation but he's currently injured.

it's worked really well before. in rafa's first season, our best league performance was the 2-1 home win over arsenal when we effectively played 4-5-1/4-3-3 and completely dominated them.

                                    dudek

                finnan       carra    hyypia     riise

                            hamann    alonso

     sinama/pongolle        gerrard           kewell

                                   mellor




they just couldn't pick up gerrard at all in this formation because he had no defensive responsibility whatsoever with two sitting midfielders behind him.

this formation would be devastating at home, but i still don't think that our wide players are of the required standard to make it work.

[ConnO'var]

To summarize the above: Gerrard is effective in Central Midfield when he has equal influential support of those around him. (not in evidence previously) hence Rafa deciding to investigate alternatives. Gerrard is/was equally instrumental from -'the right'- as a viable option, when the rest of the unit is balanced (which clearly it isnt) so of course you will inevitably hear the 'war drums' calling for parity to be restored. Now that he has successfully transferred back to the middle.....suggests other areas for concern that remain to be solved. Because all of a sudden, things are beginning to appear rosy again. and whys that? -  because the real problem doesnt lie with Steve Gerrard or 'where' he's played at all......  work it out.

Mate... been trying to work it out but can't seem to quite grasp what it is that you're thinking.... What's coming next maybe completely off-base but gonna give it a shot anyway.

Is the mental fortitude of the remainder of our midfield and attackers in question? Are we just way too dependant on Gerrard or is his persona just too imposing that the rest of the players are reluctant to try and exert their own influence on the game? or do we simply lack the the attacking flair and finishing capability that we go go off the rails when Gerrard is in a position where he can exert less of an influence.. ie on the right?

I certainly hope that its none of the above as that would mean that there is a serious problem with our players.....

Can you elaborate mate? Coz it's doing me head in, not being able to figure this out....

In my defense or more accurately, my only excuse is that it's almost 8 pm and I've not had me dinner yet... 

[ConnO'var]

                                    Reina

          Finnan            JC             Sami              Riise

                    Alonso                           Momo
                                    Gerrard
Pennant                                                              Kewell
                           
                                      Kuyt.

This formation looks good though personally I'd change the 2 wide men.


Pennant to Garcia. Personal preference as I don't rate Pennant at all.

Kewell to Riise and Aurelio to LB to give us a bit more steel in the tougher games but allows the flexibility to move to a 4-3-1-2 midway through matches against the "weaker" teams....

And also Agger for Sammi as I think he's ready now...

[red37]

To summarize the above: Gerrard is effective in Central Midfield when he has equal influential support of those around him. (not in evidence previously) hence Rafa deciding to investigate alternatives. Gerrard is/was equally instrumental from -'the right'- as a viable option, when the rest of the unit is balanced (which clearly it isnt) so of course you will inevitably hear the 'war drums' calling for parity to be restored. Now that he has successfully transferred back to the middle.....suggests other areas for concern that remain to be solved. Because all of a sudden, things are beginning to appear rosy again. and whys that? -  because the real problem doesnt lie with Steve Gerrard or 'where' he's played at all......  work it out.

Mate... been trying to work it out but can't seem to quite grasp what it is that you're thinking.... What's coming next maybe completely off-base but gonna give it a shot anyway.

Is the mental fortitude of the remainder of our midfield and attackers in question? Are we just way too dependant on Gerrard or is his persona just too imposing that the rest of the players are reluctant to try and exert their own influence on the game? or do we simply lack the the attacking flair and finishing capability that we go go off the rails when Gerrard is in a position where he can exert less of an influence.. ie on the right?

I certainly hope that its none of the above as that would mean that there is a serious problem with our players.....

Can you elaborate mate? Coz it's doing me head in, not being able to figure this out....

In my defense or more accurately, my only excuse is that it's almost 8 pm and I've not had me dinner yet... 

Connovar, i was trying to suggest that since Gerrards return to the centre, all of a sudden he hits a bit of 'form' with Alonso/Sissoko out. therefore the lack of a 'fulcrum' of distribution along with a 'break-up' player of Momo's stature..the onus then switches to better distribution from the defence including the full-backs in order to supply Gerrard with his ammunition meaning he is able to drive at teams through the centre. I think it was more in deferrence to the way in which the team suddenly appears cohesive and willing to 'push' up from the back, knowing Gerrard's efficiency when he gets on to the ball.  Rather than an over reliance on bypassing midfield up to Kuyt/Crouch in the 'hope' they can hold it up, until gerrard arrives in the box. With him played centrally, it is easier for him to make beter use of the ball, from defence to attack. But, if you do play him out wide (which equally he is influential from) then the emphasis lies heavy on the shoulders of players, who have previously relished having stevie do half of their donkey work. For me, one key lies in the supporting full-backs/or lack of, making Gerrard 'look' wasted out right...theyre simply too inhibited to overlap him...because he isnt there - he inevitably drifts in, by nature of his intent. So the defence sits deep, using the diagonal balls/over hitting direct passes to the stiker(s) Nervous/anxious play that inevitably leads to squandering possession somewhere down the line. By all means use him Wide or Central, in any case have better discipline in those around him on the park... Panic/fear of failure has set in recently which eventually leads to the mess the team has found themselves in. if the levels of duress you are suffering from hinder any facet of your game - it will flounder. doesnt matter where you are deployed.  So the cheering and waving of  'i told you so' flags have come out, and everyone demanding 'Gerrard cannot play out wide'...etc...are down to nothing less than a necessity to alter the script through the decimation of our midfield. (therefore the wake-up call) the side clearly warranted...And the renewed sense of liberty and freedom Gerrard is able to operate with can have no other bearing other than the consideration of his partners abscence and the fact that the defence have a point of attack with which to aim to feed. Throw Sissoko/Alonso back into the equation and the waters become muddied again...Its nothing more sinister than lack of balance really mate. Last season Gerrard stamped his authority over the midfield unit solely because he was similarly 'free' to roam, safe in the knowledge the 'axis' behind him was secured. This year that factor has been removed from the ethic of the team, down to two or three players having far too similar an influence. Confusion reigns.

[account deleted by request]

To summarize the above: Gerrard is effective in Central Midfield when he has equal influential support of those around him. (not in evidence previously) hence Rafa deciding to investigate alternatives. Gerrard is/was equally instrumental from -'the right'- as a viable option, when the rest of the unit is balanced (which clearly it isnt) so of course you will inevitably hear the 'war drums' calling for parity to be restored. Now that he has successfully transferred back to the middle.....suggests other areas for concern that remain to be solved. Because all of a sudden, things are beginning to appear rosy again. and whys that? -  because the real problem doesnt lie with Steve Gerrard or 'where' he's played at all......  work it out.

Mate... been trying to work it out but can't seem to quite grasp what it is that you're thinking.... What's coming next maybe completely off-base but gonna give it a shot anyway.

Is the mental fortitude of the remainder of our midfield and attackers in question? Are we just way too dependant on Gerrard or is his persona just too imposing that the rest of the players are reluctant to try and exert their own influence on the game? or do we simply lack the the attacking flair and finishing capability that we go go off the rails when Gerrard is in a position where he can exert less of an influence.. ie on the right?

I certainly hope that its none of the above as that would mean that there is a serious problem with our players.....

Can you elaborate mate? Coz it's doing me head in, not being able to figure this out....

In my defense or more accurately, my only excuse is that it's almost 8 pm and I've not had me dinner yet... 

Connovar, i was trying to suggest that since Gerrards return to the centre, all of a sudden he hits a bit of 'form' with Alonso/Sissoko out. therefore the lack of a 'fulcrum' of distribution along with a 'break-up' player of Momo's stature..the onus then switches to better distribution from the defence including the full-backs in order to supply Gerrard with his ammunition meaning he is able to drive at teams through the centre. I think it was more in deferrence to the way in which the team suddenly appears cohesive and willing to 'push' up from the back, knowing Gerrard's efficiency when he gets on to the ball.  Rather than an over reliance on bypassing midfield up to Kuyt/Crouch in the 'hope' they can hold it up, until gerrard arrives in the box. With him played centrally, it is easier for him to make beter use of the ball, from defence to attack. But, if you do play him out wide (which equally he is influential from) then the emphasis lies heavy on the shoulders of players, who have previously relished having stevie do half of their donkey work. For me, one key lies in the supporting full-backs/or lack of, making Gerrard 'look' wasted out right...theyre simply too inhibited to overlap him...because he isnt there - he inevitably drifts in, by nature of his intent. So the defence sits deep, using the diagonal balls/over hitting direct passes to the stiker(s) Nervous/anxious play that inevitably leads to squandering possession somewhere down the line. By all means use him Wide or Central, in any case have better discipline in those around him on the park... Panic/fear of failure has set in recently which eventually leads to the mess the team has found themselves in. if the levels of duress you are suffering from hinder any facet of your game - it will flounder. doesnt matter where you are deployed.  So the cheering and waving of  'i told you so' flags have come out, and everyone demanding 'Gerrard cannot play out wide'...etc...are down to nothing less than a necessity to alter the script through the decimation of our midfield. (therefore the wake-up call) the side clearly warranted...And the renewed sense of liberty and freedom Gerrard is able to operate with can have no other bearing other than the consideration of his partners abscence and the fact that the defence have a point of attack with which to aim to feed. Throw Sissoko/Alonso back into the equation and the waters become muddied again...Its nothing more sinister than lack of balance really mate. Last season Gerrard stamped his authority over the midfield unit solely because he was similarly 'free' to roam, safe in the knowledge the 'axis' behind him was secured. This year that factor has been removed from the ethic of the team, down to two or three players having far too similar an influence. Confusion reigns.

Just a hint ConnO'var, never ask Red37 to elaborate 

[Bad Bob]

To summarize the above: Gerrard is effective in Central Midfield when he has equal influential support of those around him. (not in evidence previously) hence Rafa deciding to investigate alternatives. Gerrard is/was equally instrumental from -'the right'- as a viable option, when the rest of the unit is balanced (which clearly it isnt) so of course you will inevitably hear the 'war drums' calling for parity to be restored. Now that he has successfully transferred back to the middle.....suggests other areas for concern that remain to be solved. Because all of a sudden, things are beginning to appear rosy again. and whys that? -  because the real problem doesnt lie with Steve Gerrard or 'where' he's played at all......  work it out.

Mate... been trying to work it out but can't seem to quite grasp what it is that you're thinking.... What's coming next maybe completely off-base but gonna give it a shot anyway.

Is the mental fortitude of the remainder of our midfield and attackers in question? Are we just way too dependant on Gerrard or is his persona just too imposing that the rest of the players are reluctant to try and exert their own influence on the game? or do we simply lack the the attacking flair and finishing capability that we go go off the rails when Gerrard is in a position where he can exert less of an influence.. ie on the right?

I certainly hope that its none of the above as that would mean that there is a serious problem with our players.....

Can you elaborate mate? Coz it's doing me head in, not being able to figure this out....

In my defense or more accurately, my only excuse is that it's almost 8 pm and I've not had me dinner yet... 

Connovar, i was trying to suggest that since Gerrards return to the centre, all of a sudden he hits a bit of 'form' with Alonso/Sissoko out. therefore the lack of a 'fulcrum' of distribution along with a 'break-up' player of Momo's stature..the onus then switches to better distribution from the defence including the full-backs in order to supply Gerrard with his ammunition meaning he is able to drive at teams through the centre. I think it was more in deferrence to the way in which the team suddenly appears cohesive and willing to 'push' up from the back, knowing Gerrard's efficiency when he gets on to the ball.  Rather than an over reliance on bypassing midfield up to Kuyt/Crouch in the 'hope' they can hold it up, until gerrard arrives in the box. With him played centrally, it is easier for him to make beter use of the ball, from defence to attack. But, if you do play him out wide (which equally he is influential from) then the emphasis lies heavy on the shoulders of players, who have previously relished having stevie do half of their donkey work. For me, one key lies in the supporting full-backs/or lack of, making Gerrard 'look' wasted out right...theyre simply too inhibited to overlap him...because he isnt there - he inevitably drifts in, by nature of his intent. So the defence sits deep, using the diagonal balls/over hitting direct passes to the stiker(s) Nervous/anxious play that inevitably leads to squandering possession somewhere down the line. By all means use him Wide or Central, in any case have better discipline in those around him on the park... Panic/fear of failure has set in recently which eventually leads to the mess the team has found themselves in. if the levels of duress you are suffering from hinder any facet of your game - it will flounder. doesnt matter where you are deployed.  So the cheering and waving of  'i told you so' flags have come out, and everyone demanding 'Gerrard cannot play out wide'...etc...are down to nothing less than a necessity to alter the script through the decimation of our midfield. (therefore the wake-up call) the side clearly warranted...And the renewed sense of liberty and freedom Gerrard is able to operate with can have no other bearing other than the consideration of his partners abscence and the fact that the defence have a point of attack with which to aim to feed. Throw Sissoko/Alonso back into the equation and the waters become muddied again...Its nothing more sinister than lack of balance really mate. Last season Gerrard stamped his authority over the midfield unit solely because he was similarly 'free' to roam, safe in the knowledge the 'axis' behind him was secured. This year that factor has been removed from the ethic of the team, down to two or three players having far too similar an influence. Confusion reigns.

Just a hint ConnO'var, never ask Red37 to elaborate 

Saint, are you talking to yourselves again, mate! 

[red37]

 

no comment   

[account deleted by request]

I will ask Dward if he will do ConnO'var a new sig to save confusion.