The final straw...

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Fo Dne » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:09 pm

Right, I have to get all this off my chest.

I'm absoloutely fuming with Sunday's result. The main reason is that I expected it. Its just typical of Liverpool to find themselves in a good position before the start of play, and by the end to have completely :censored: it up through a complete lack of quality. Its something we're all becoming used to and to be honest, its starting to ware really thin with me.

Now, in the scheme of things, a draw away at Villa would be considered an acceptable result, especially without your two best players. More teams will go there and lose this season than will win. But what annoyed me the most was the mannor in which we got the result and performance yet again, along with the substituions and rediculous team selection which were again incredibley naive to say the least.

Playing no left side, playing an average striker on the wing AGAIN, playing Lucas...

Then bringing on Ngog, not recognising the teams failings, taking Keane and Kuyt off and replacing them with a defender and midfielder, its a joke. Its not a one off either, things like this happen regularly, far to regularly.

Rafa is in his fifth season now as LFC's manager and to be quite honest, the state of this team is awful. We have very average personel in a number of positions and despite him being here for so long, the problems within the team haven't been addressed and we still find ourselves lacking in to many departments.

The signings, for the large part aren't good enough. Now, I keep hearing money being mentioned. Its absoloutely no excuse. He's had millions and millions, plus he already had Hyypia, Carragher and Gerrard before he arrived who were all more than good enough to play in a championship winning team. I keep seeing players like Evra, Woodgate, Ashton, Boateng, moving around for the same prices we're signing absoloute rubbish.

Now its all well and good saying Chelsea can spend £40,000,000 a year on a player. Of course they can and that makes it difficult. But money doesn't always sign you quality and Rafa has had more than enough money to build a top class team. Obviously, financially we can't compete with United and Chelsea. But we can compete with Spurs, with Newcastle, Everton, Villa, West Ham, Portsmouth and Arsenal.

All of those teams have large numbers of players who'd get into our team and improve it and they've all signed players who'd have got into our team over the last few years that are alot better than what we have. Now with some of them, theres the risk of injury's and attitude. But I'm sorry, they are risks we HAVE to take to an extent due to our financial situation in comparrison to the top clubs. If you look at there teams, most of them are pretty similar to ours but without Gerrard and Torres. Now, I sit here looking at Spurs, They have a top class goalkeeper, one of the best around for me, (I'm not complaining about Pepe, I think he's been amazing for us and wouldn't swap him), they have two centre halfs who are far better than ours, they have a far better left back and a better right back. Now, defensively I'm not sure they have the perfect balance and obviously Woodgate and King are injury prone players, however, both are top players and far better than anything we have. I ask you, put Gerrard and Torres in there best 11 and would they have a better line up, I'm more than 100% sure they would.

I only used Spurs as an example though, thats what worries me, you could do the same with alot of sides in our league and you'd get the same result.

The other problem we have is the massive turnover of players aswell. We keep signing players in the same positions all the time. Go and sign a young but class player and play him in the right position. Its not rocket science. For example, £20,000,000 on Richards, ok, its alot of money, but its ya right back position or centre half (wherever ya want him to play) sorted for the next ten years. Then the year after you can add another peice of the jigsaw, and so on and so on.

A few years ago, when we finished on 82 points we had a class TEAM. Crouch was doing well, Kewell was performing, Alonso and Sissoko were doing the business, Gerrard was on fire, the defence was solid and Reina was :censored: quality. We then Added Fowler who seemed to add another dimension to our play and improve us even further. That side looked like it was going places, what it lacked was depth and options. We lacked a natural wide right player as an option (which is why i was made up with Pennant) and we lacked a backup striker as Morientes wasn't really upto it, we lacked the pace option upfront aswell.

Now that teams main weakness was the bench, the Harry Kewell situation and the left back and probably Crouch, but he was performing his role. Anyway, that summer Rafa decides to go out and sign the right winger, brilliant I'm thinking, real progress. Then the pacey striker comes in as an option, Bellamy. Ok, not who i wanted but not a bad player and will give us something different and I thought, right, this year, start with the same team and introduce the new faces slowly as subs and give them game time.

Instead what happens, Bellamy and Kuyt pretty much become first choice strikers which effectively made the signing of Pennant a waste of time. Then the three of them end up in our starting eleven completely :censored: up the balance of the team and making us look ordinary once again. We went backwards, any it wasn't a step backwards, it was a leap. We had a balanced side that was looking strong and potentially top class, then Fowler gets :censored: off, Crouch loses his place, Pennant's signed to provide crosses then finds out the players he would have been good for aren't in the side and everything falls to bits.

Over the next couple of years the problems weren't addressed and we now find ourself in a poor situation in my opinion.

For me, Hyypia is the best centre half I've seen at Liverpool since Mark Wright, who was easily equal to or better than. He's never been adequately replaced and is still our best centre back. We've never had a great left back, Riise was good on his day but no consistency and prone to the hoof but this Dossena bloke looks absoloutely no better. The lad can cross a ball, but he can't defend for toffee and he's just as prone to the hoof. His movements also awful. On the right, we went from the brilliant Markus Babbel, to the more than decent and very steady Steve Finnan to Arbeloa, who's nothing more than an average full back in the Luke Young mould, maybe not even that good.

In midfield Gerrard is still there but has been abused by the manager completely. If you're going to play him centre mid, :censored: play him there and leave him alone and build the side around him. If not, play him on the right and leave him there, again building the side around him. Don't put him where you feel like, put him somewhere and get the best out of him and leave him there for good.

The midfield lacks balance completely. Mascherano and Gerrard aren't a good pairning at all. They are quite frankly an awful one in my opinion, they are flat and neither have the ability to dicate a game and take up the right positions in attacking areas to influence the game in that mannor and help us with our attacking play. Alonso and Gerrard for me is the best combination, as much as I like Mascherano, I think he's the wrong type of player for us, in Chelsea's system he'd be incredible but we don't and never have played that way.

We then have Lucas Levia who for me shouldn't be anywhere near a Liverpool team. He's awful to be quite honest and IMO another £6-7m wasted.

Upfront Keane and Kuyt are decent enough to play off Torres. Kuyt isn't anywhere near as bad as made out, but he's not a great player. He just solid, he's decent at knock downs and link play and he's a battler and a believer. However, he's not and never will be a wide player and its unfair asking him to play there as he looks hopelessly out of his depth.

The truth is we're absoloutely miles away.

Now more so than ever I feel. I genuinely believe Torres, Keane, Alonso, Gerrard, Carragher and Reina need a team build around them the thing is we don't have the years left anymore like we did, Keane, Gerrard and Carragher aren't young players any more. Mascherano for me doesn't really suit the style of play and I think the rest just aren't upto it.

I'm really depressed with the team at the minute and I can't see this season being a good one in any way shape or form.

I want Lucas, Babel, Voronin, Bennayoun, Dossena, Skrytel and Pennant all to be shown the door and new blood brough in. I don't want to see Arbeloa in the team every week and I am getting sick of the constant playing players out of position, bad sigings, bad excuses, bigging up of woeful performances andawful players.

Rafa thinks we're all stupid and to be honest I want him out. Now. I'm sick of it.

Thanks for the Champions league and other cups wins. I loved every second, but you'll never win us the league. Shut the door on your way out and leave now before you become a hate figure like Houllier.
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Postby bunglemark2 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:10 pm

Well done, mate....

Now the rest of us will do a whip round and buy you some new crayons, 'cos somebody obviously broke your other ones.....

Get over it. It's not the end of the world.
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Postby Fo Dne » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:11 pm

bunglemark2 wrote:Well done, mate....

Now the rest of us will do a whip round and buy you some new crayons, 'cos somebody obviously broke your other ones.....

Get over it. It's not the end of the world.

Yeah because you read that in 60 seconds didn't ya.
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Postby GYBS » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:17 pm

1. What position are we in the league at the moment ?
2.Dossena has played how many games for us ? on sunday put in more dangerous crosses than anyone has this season
3.Skittle ? what has he done wrong ?
4.GH - since when did he become a hate figure ?
5.where are we going to get this 20 mil for richards ? are you going to tell me that chelsea or man utd wont just come in with a higher bid ?
6.Who do you want to replace all these players you want to get rid . and where you going to get the money to buy these players.
7.also how can you suggest anything negative against masher when he is one of our best players and has been since the momenbt he arrived.
Last edited by GYBS on Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ConnO'var » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:18 pm

Great post.... Pretty much agree with most of it.

I do however, think that if properly utilized, Mascherano can make a huge difference and obviously as stated before, I disagree with the Pennant analysis. Lucas is a good player but will not develop well in Rafa's chosen system.... Just watch, he'll leave us and be an absolute belter of a player for someone else.... but by and large, pretty much spot on.

New ideas are needed and IMHO, Rafa is too stubborn to see it or accept that his system and philosophy is flawed in the context of the English game. And yes.... if he carries on like this, he'll fade into the background and be known as the Spanish Houllier in years down the road.
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Postby stmichael » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:18 pm

It's a good post Stu. I agree with a lot of what you say.

We won cups under Houllier and were as close to the league title then as we are now. What's different? Apart from the cup being the CL?

For two years he made me believe in what he was doing because I saw progress on the field. However last season we went backwards imo and I don't necessarily blame the ownership issue for that. He has the players available to him to beat the teams we were drawing with and losing to last season. This season so far we've been terrible and though I'm not panicking it's very disappointing and does not encourage confidence.
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Postby Sabre » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:21 pm

he midfield lacks balance completely. Mascherano and Gerrard aren't a good pairning at all. They are quite frankly an awful one in my opinion, they are flat and neither have the ability to dicate a game and take up the right positions in attacking areas to influence the game in that mannor and help us with our attacking play. Alonso and Gerrard for me is the best combination, as much as I like Mascherano, I think he's the wrong type of player for us, in Chelsea's system he'd be incredible but we don't and never have played that way.


Good post, I don't agree with the most passional part of it, and I'd like further explanation about this bit.

You claim Mascherano and Gerrard aren't a good pairing, but I fail to see why. May you develop that idea please? I don't get the english expression "they're flat".
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Postby Gerrard30391 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:24 pm

GYBS wrote:1. What position are we in the league at the moment ?
2.Dossena has played how many games for us ? on sunday put in more dangerous crosses than anyone has this season
3.Skittle ? what has he done wrong ?
4.GH - since when did he become a hate figure ?

Firstly, i don't buy the point about our league position now. Thats all b0llocks. Were three games into the season and once Man Ure are fighting on all cylinders that's us down to third spot. Now Man City are rolling in it they're going to push us.

The only point with the original post is you've completely blanked Carragher. Who's worthy of a spot in any team in the league. He is better than Hyypia.

Apart from that lad, you've spoke what some of us are thinking.
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Postby flamingpoe » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:24 pm

fair enuf fo dne but my view on the matter is that skrtel, babel and lucas you can sod off sorry but you can, babel is a great player that has been played out of position in my eyes stick him upfront and he will be good, lucas is another player that isn't wonderful i'll admit but still a good player he was the captain of u21's brazil so he cant be that bad, and skrtel has only been playing for us 4 like 6months so give him a little time, because as a famous saying goes "patience is a virtue"
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Postby GYBS » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:26 pm

Gerrard30391 wrote:
GYBS wrote:1. What position are we in the league at the moment ?
2.Dossena has played how many games for us ? on sunday put in more dangerous crosses than anyone has this season
3.Skittle ? what has he done wrong ?
4.GH - since when did he become a hate figure ?

Firstly, i don't buy the point about our league position now. Thats all b0llocks. Were three games into the season and once Man Ure are fighting on all cylinders that's us down to third spot. Now Man City are rolling in it they're going to push us.

The only point with the original post is you've completely blanked Carragher. Who's worthy of a spot in any team in the league. He is better than Hyypia.

Apart from that lad, you've spoke what some of us are thinking.

So why can people rant on about how poor we are when we have only played 3 games this season yet people cant suggest look at the league table ??

and as for hyypia - unfortunatly the guy has lost any pace he has and can no longer be considered a starter .
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Postby Effes » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:27 pm

Rafa's performance yesterday was worse than the players.

And you're right - he does it regularly, Reading away last year for example.

The thing is, I don't think Rafa will change the way he does things, and subsequently I can't see
him winning the league but I CAN see him winning the Champs League.

For that reason, I wouldn't get rid of him or think of getting rid til the season is over.

Re. Transfers - Rafa has tried to spread the signings thinly, and it hasn't been a great success.
There have been a few on here who have echoed your thoughts on transfers.

It's same old same old I think, every season.
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Postby stmichael » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:28 pm

GYBS wrote:and as for hyypia - unfortunatly the guy has lost any pace he has and can no longer be considered a starter .

what do you mean he's lost pace? he never had any in the first place. he makes up for his lack of pace with his superb reading of the game. still a top top player imo.
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Postby LiverpoolMadman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:31 pm

Like i say our team ARE CAPABLE to win in EVERY MATCH and WIN EVERY TITLE but it's ALL RAFA that played the game. Just like in the game of chess , it's RAFA who made the moves , wrong moves .... checkmate !
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Postby Gerrard30391 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:33 pm

GYBS wrote:
Gerrard30391 wrote:
GYBS wrote:1. What position are we in the league at the moment ?
2.Dossena has played how many games for us ? on sunday put in more dangerous crosses than anyone has this season
3.Skittle ? what has he done wrong ?
4.GH - since when did he become a hate figure ?

Firstly, i don't buy the point about our league position now. Thats all b0llocks. Were three games into the season and once Man Ure are fighting on all cylinders that's us down to third spot. Now Man City are rolling in it they're going to push us.

The only point with the original post is you've completely blanked Carragher. Who's worthy of a spot in any team in the league. He is better than Hyypia.

Apart from that lad, you've spoke what some of us are thinking.

So why can people rant on about how poor we are when we have only played 3 games this season yet people cant suggest look at the league table ??

and as for hyypia - unfortunatly the guy has lost any pace he has and can no longer be considered a starter .

Because some of us can see past the obvious. Lets be honest, we've played Sunderland, who aren't going to threaten Europe this year. Middlesborough, where we got extremely fortunate with an OG where we deserved bugga all. And that's why we're concerned. We feel better opposition, will tear us to pieces like they will Hull. If they don't do that then it will be like yesterday. Throwing on left backs for strikers when the games there to be won. It just isn't going to win titles.

So simply stats mean nothing until we've played the top 5 or 6 teams. We've already dropped two points on the three games from last year. The same games last year added up to 9 points.
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Postby GYBS » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:33 pm

stmichael wrote:
GYBS wrote:and as for hyypia - unfortunatly the guy has lost any pace he has and can no longer be considered a starter .

what do you mean he's lost pace? he never had any in the first place. he makes up for his lack of pace with his superb reading of the game. still a top top player imo.

yet every game he plays now you see him getting turned by a forward leading to him bringing him down yellow card - hyypia had a little bit of pace along the lines of carra has but sami doesnt even have that now . he is there for back up now .
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