Liverpool FC Forum

[bunglemark2]

Well done, mate....

Now the rest of us will do a whip round and buy you some new crayons, 'cos somebody obviously broke your other ones.....

Get over it. It's not the end of the world.

Yeah because you read that in 60 seconds didn't ya.

Actually, my friend, I read your post a couple of times but I think your misguided hatred of Rafa is precisely that - misguided.

Granted he has a particular approach to a game setup, and that has brought him success wherever he has managed a team. I think you lay the blame squarely at the feet of the manager when in fact you should be looking out on the pitch.

You hold Gerrard up on a pedestal as (one of) the players who whould have free rein to do what he likes, that he is bigger than the team (and the result), yet no mention made of the multitude of games where he is anonymous. In fact, Gerrard aside, so many players go AWOL out on that pitch it's not funny. So many give less than 100% it's a joke.

I watched an interview last week with Ronnie Whelan where the man was almost apologising for the lack of heart and commitment shown by current and recent LFC players.

For what it's worth, I don't think we're unique in this. I think we have an expectation that every season we will be in a position to dominate like in years gone by, but we're not, and for a multitude of reasons: others can buy better players 'cos they have for example a drunken Russian writing cheques; other managers are quicker off the mark with bringing the academy players through; there's not enough coming in the tills every week at Liverpool Inc. to fund the players.

It's not as clear cut as you say....

[aCe']

Right, I have to get all this off my chest.

I'm absoloutely fuming with Sunday's result. The main reason is that I expected it. Its just typical of Liverpool to find themselves in a good position before the start of play, and by the end to have completely it up through a complete lack of quality. Its something we're all becoming used to and to be honest, its starting to ware really thin with me.

Now, in the scheme of things, a draw away at Villa would be considered an acceptable result, especially without your two best players. More teams will go there and lose this season than will win. But what annoyed me the most was the mannor in which we got the result and performance yet again, along with the substituions and rediculous team selection which were again incredibley naive to say the least.

Playing no left side, playing an average striker on the wing AGAIN, playing Lucas...

Then bringing on Ngog, not recognising the teams failings, taking Keane and Kuyt off and replacing them with a defender and midfielder, its a joke. Its not a one off either, things like this happen regularly, far to regularly.

Rafa is in his fifth season now as LFC's manager and to be quite honest, the state of this team is awful. We have very average personel in a number of positions and despite him being here for so long, the problems within the team haven't been addressed and we still find ourselves lacking in to many departments.

The signings, for the large part aren't good enough. Now, I keep hearing money being mentioned. Its absoloutely no excuse. He's had millions and millions, plus he already had Hyypia, Carragher and Gerrard before he arrived who were all more than good enough to play in a championship winning team. I keep seeing players like Evra, Woodgate, Ashton, Boateng, moving around for the same prices we're signing absoloute rubbish.

Now its all well and good saying Chelsea can spend £40,000,000 a year on a player. Of course they can and that makes it difficult. But money doesn't always sign you quality and Rafa has had more than enough money to build a top class team. Obviously, financially we can't compete with United and Chelsea. But we can compete with Spurs, with Newcastle, Everton, Villa, West Ham, Portsmouth and Arsenal.

All of those teams have large numbers of players who'd get into our team and improve it and they've all signed players who'd have got into our team over the last few years that are alot better than what we have. Now with some of them, theres the risk of injury's and attitude. But I'm sorry, they are risks we HAVE to take to an extent due to our financial situation in comparrison to the top clubs. If you look at there teams, most of them are pretty similar to ours but without Gerrard and Torres. Now, I sit here looking at Spurs, They have a top class goalkeeper, one of the best around for me, (I'm not complaining about Pepe, I think he's been amazing for us and wouldn't swap him), they have two centre halfs who are far better than ours, they have a far better left back and a better right back. Now, defensively I'm not sure they have the perfect balance and obviously Woodgate and King are injury prone players, however, both are top players and far better than anything we have. I ask you, put Gerrard and Torres in there best 11 and would they have a better line up, I'm more than 100% sure they would.

I only used Spurs as an example though, thats what worries me, you could do the same with alot of sides in our league and you'd get the same result.

The other problem we have is the massive turnover of players aswell. We keep signing players in the same positions all the time. Go and sign a young but class player and play him in the right position. Its not rocket science. For example, £20,000,000 on Richards, ok, its alot of money, but its ya right back position or centre half (wherever ya want him to play) sorted for the next ten years. Then the year after you can add another peice of the jigsaw, and so on and so on.

A few years ago, when we finished on 82 points we had a class TEAM. Crouch was doing well, Kewell was performing, Alonso and Sissoko were doing the business, Gerrard was on fire, the defence was solid and Reina was quality. We then Added Fowler who seemed to add another dimension to our play and improve us even further. That side looked like it was going places, what it lacked was depth and options. We lacked a natural wide right player as an option (which is why i was made up with Pennant) and we lacked a backup striker as Morientes wasn't really upto it, we lacked the pace option upfront aswell.

Now that teams main weakness was the bench, the Harry Kewell situation and the left back and probably Crouch, but he was performing his role. Anyway, that summer Rafa decides to go out and sign the right winger, brilliant I'm thinking, real progress. Then the pacey striker comes in as an option, Bellamy. Ok, not who i wanted but not a bad player and will give us something different and I thought, right, this year, start with the same team and introduce the new faces slowly as subs and give them game time.

Instead what happens, Bellamy and Kuyt pretty much become first choice strikers which effectively made the signing of Pennant a waste of time. Then the three of them end up in our starting eleven completely up the balance of the team and making us look ordinary once again. We went backwards, any it wasn't a step backwards, it was a leap. We had a balanced side that was looking strong and potentially top class, then Fowler gets off, Crouch loses his place, Pennant's signed to provide crosses then finds out the players he would have been good for aren't in the side and everything falls to bits.

Over the next couple of years the problems weren't addressed and we now find ourself in a poor situation in my opinion.

For me, Hyypia is the best centre half I've seen at Liverpool since Mark Wright, who was easily equal to or better than. He's never been adequately replaced and is still our best centre back. We've never had a great left back, Riise was good on his day but no consistency and prone to the hoof but this Dossena bloke looks absoloutely no better. The lad can cross a ball, but he can't defend for toffee and he's just as prone to the hoof. His movements also awful. On the right, we went from the brilliant Markus Babbel, to the more than decent and very steady Steve Finnan to Arbeloa, who's nothing more than an average full back in the Luke Young mould, maybe not even that good.

In midfield Gerrard is still there but has been abused by the manager completely. If you're going to play him centre mid, play him there and leave him alone and build the side around him. If not, play him on the right and leave him there, again building the side around him. Don't put him where you feel like, put him somewhere and get the best out of him and leave him there for good.

The midfield lacks balance completely. Mascherano and Gerrard aren't a good pairning at all. They are quite frankly an awful one in my opinion, they are flat and neither have the ability to dicate a game and take up the right positions in attacking areas to influence the game in that mannor and help us with our attacking play. Alonso and Gerrard for me is the best combination, as much as I like Mascherano, I think he's the wrong type of player for us, in Chelsea's system he'd be incredible but we don't and never have played that way.

We then have Lucas Levia who for me shouldn't be anywhere near a Liverpool team. He's awful to be quite honest and IMO another £6-7m wasted.

Upfront Keane and Kuyt are decent enough to play off Torres. Kuyt isn't anywhere near as bad as made out, but he's not a great player. He just solid, he's decent at knock downs and link play and he's a battler and a believer. However, he's not and never will be a wide player and its unfair asking him to play there as he looks hopelessly out of his depth.

The truth is we're absoloutely miles away.

Now more so than ever I feel. I genuinely believe Torres, Keane, Alonso, Gerrard, Carragher and Reina need a team build around them the thing is we don't have the years left anymore like we did, Keane, Gerrard and Carragher aren't young players any more. Mascherano for me doesn't really suit the style of play and I think the rest just aren't upto it.

I'm really depressed with the team at the minute and I can't see this season being a good one in any way shape or form.

I want Lucas, Babel, Voronin, Bennayoun, Dossena, Skrytel and Pennant all to be shown the door and new blood brough in. I don't want to see Arbeloa in the team every week and I am getting sick of the constant playing players out of position, bad sigings, bad excuses, bigging up of woeful performances andawful players.

Rafa thinks we're all stupid and to be honest I want him out. Now. I'm sick of it.

Thanks for the Champions league and other cups wins. I loved every second, but you'll never win us the league. Shut the door on your way out and leave now before you become a hate figure like Houllier.

Good Post..

Was talking abouot Mascherano not being the right player for us yesterday to a couple friends and they thought i was talking out my behind nice to see you mention it here. Xabi and Gerrard in the middle of the park for me any day of the week. And imo, Skrtel and Babel could turn out to be great players in time if given the right opportunity.. They both have what it takes (either physically or in terms of basic skills) to improve and become top players.

Cant believe we actually paid 8mill for Dossena when you see players like corluka moving for around the same money you just wonder if Rafa actually knows whats going on around him.

Rafa has till the end of the season to prove me wrong.. if it was upto me he wouldnt have been here start of this season but now im guessing little by little patience is starting to run out.

[GYBS]

1. What position are we in the league at the moment ?
2.Dossena has played how many games for us ? on sunday put in more dangerous crosses than anyone has this season
3.Skittle ? what has he done wrong ?
4.GH - since when did he become a hate figure ?

Firstly, i don't buy the point about our league position now. Thats all b0llocks. Were three games into the season and once Man Ure are fighting on all cylinders that's us down to third spot. Now Man City are rolling in it they're going to push us.

The only point with the original post is you've completely blanked Carragher. Who's worthy of a spot in any team in the league. He is better than Hyypia.

Apart from that lad, you've spoke what some of us are thinking.

So why can people rant on about how poor we are when we have only played 3 games this season yet people cant suggest look at the league table ??

and as for hyypia - unfortunatly the guy has lost any pace he has and can no longer be considered a starter .

Because some of us can see past the obvious. Lets be honest, we've played Sunderland, who aren't going to threaten Europe this year. Middlesborough, where we got extremely fortunate with an OG where we deserved bugga all. And that's why we're concerned. We feel better opposition, will tear us to pieces like they will Hull. If they don't do that then it will be like yesterday. Throwing on left backs for strikers when the games there to be won. It just isn't going to win titles.

So simply stats mean nothing until we've played the top 5 or 6 teams. We've already dropped two points on the three games from last year. The same games last year added up to 9 points.

And the game was also there to be lost . thank feck we didnt lose as it would of been mass suicide on here . we are 2nd in league playing - same points as chelsea who are supposedly playing wonderful beautiful football . imagine what will happen when we start playing well as we know we are going too .

[Gerrard30391]

And the game was also there to be lost . thank feck we didnt lose as it would of been mass suicide on here . we are 2nd in league playing  - same points as chelsea who are supposedly playing wonderful beautiful football . imagine what will happen when we start playing well as we know we are going too .

That'l be the day i die!

You only have to look at Hull atm and you could say the same. But we all know, like they do, they'll be fighting relegation next year. Just as we all know we'll be fighting for fourth spot, oh again

[GYBS]

And the game was also there to be lost . thank feck we didnt lose as it would of been mass suicide on here . we are 2nd in league playing  - same points as chelsea who are supposedly playing wonderful beautiful football . imagine what will happen when we start playing well as we know we are going too .

That'l be the day i die!

You only have to look at Hull atm and you could say the same. But we all know, like they do, they'll be fighting relegation next year. Just as we all know we'll be fighting for fourth spot, oh again

were people like this at the same time last year before the goals started flying in from torres and we found a formation that worked ?

[Simari]

he midfield lacks balance completely. Mascherano and Gerrard aren't a good pairning at all. They are quite frankly an awful one in my opinion, they are flat and neither have the ability to dicate a game and take up the right positions in attacking areas to influence the game in that mannor and help us with our attacking play. Alonso and Gerrard for me is the best combination, as much as I like Mascherano, I think he's the wrong type of player for us, in Chelsea's system he'd be incredible but we don't and never have played that way.

Good post, I don't agree with the most passional part of it, and I'd like further explanation about this bit.

You claim Mascherano and Gerrard aren't a good pairing, but I fail to see why. May you develop that idea please? I don't get the english expression "they're flat".

My opinions only, so feel free to respond, but without hostility if possible

When Stu mentions Chelsea and Masch, I think I see a point there.

Chelsea have Essien, Lampard, Ballack, Mikel and Deco in midfield. They usually play with a quartet of midfielders. Essien makes those bull-dozing runs from Midfield knowing that either Lampard or Ballack will be available for cover. He is an excellent defensice midfielder as well. Lampard is a bit like Gerrard (with respect to creativity) - both have some but not bucketloads. Both chip in with their fair share of goals during the season.

That leaves us with Ballack and Deco, who provide Chelsea with that spark in midfield, while doing their fair share of defending also. More importantly, they contribute with goals.

Chelsea have options, different ways to attack teams from midfield with that quartet.

Now look at us.

Gerrard, Alonso, Masch and Lucas?

Yesterday's game restored my faith in a Masch and Alonso pairing as the best available to us given our current set of midfielders. If Masch continues to make runs like he did yesterday, into the offense, we will not look so boring. Alonso had a good game, holding us together at the back. Offensively though, he's still not there for me. When Masch does make those runs though, it leaves Alonso with covering the hole he leaves and we know Alonso isn't exactly gifted with pace. Compare that to Chelsea and you will notice that they always have 2 of the 4 midfielders available to cover holes in midfield.

Masch and Gerrard are similar, in terms of footballing ability, with 2 key differences - Masch's now does the defensive cover work that Gerrard used to do in his early days. while Gerrard score important goals for us. Gerrard also possesses that very coveted, game-winning knack. However in terms of sparking an attack, there really is no one to take on the roles that Ballack and Deco offer to Chelsea.

A Gerrard and Masch pairing in midfield is a lot like a Lampard / Essien pairing at Chelsea. However, when Chelsea did have Lampard / Essien in midfield in Jose's early days, they had proper wingers who were creative - and Makele who did the dirty defensive work in front of the back four. Imagine where Chelsea would be with a pairing of Lampard and Essien without creative wingers and a defensive midfielder. Well, you wouldn't need to because it would be very much be as effective and creative as a Gerrard / Masch pairing, ie: flat with no creativity.

[Fo Dne]

1. What position are we in the league at the moment ?
2.Dossena has played how many games for us ? on sunday put in more dangerous crosses than anyone has this season
3.Skittle ? what has he done wrong ?
4.GH - since when did he become a hate figure ?
5.where are we going to get this 20 mil for richards ? are you going to tell me that chelsea or man utd wont just come in with a higher bid ?
6.Who do you want to replace all these players you want to get rid . and where you going to get the money to buy these players.
7.also how can you suggest anything negative against masher when he is one of our best players and has been since the momenbt he arrived.

1. The best time to critisise and analyse is when you're in a good position so you aren't misguided. It doesn't make any difference in the long run anyway, we aren't good enough and thats it. The be all and end all.

2. He put some great crosses in, never moved, hoofed the ball, twice got done because he was to busy trying to play the man instead of the ball. Imagine him against a tricky winger instead of a power centre mid out of position. Deary me.... Not worth thinkin about.

3. Skyrtel has a mistake in him every game and is an accident waiting to happen. Not good enough.

4.  Read Fowlers book and look at the posts about Houllier's time at the club.

5. Dont' waste it on Kuyt and Babel in the first place then we'd have £20,000,000 wouldn't we.

6. Again, don't waste money in the first place on players who aren't what we need or aren't good enough.

7. How can I suggest anything negative against him? Oh yeah, how dare I do that. How dare england fans suggest Lampard and Gerrard isn't a good combination.

Two words for ya...

WAKE UP!

[GYBS]

1. What position are we in the league at the moment ?
2.Dossena has played how many games for us ? on sunday put in more dangerous crosses than anyone has this season
3.Skittle ? what has he done wrong ?
4.GH - since when did he become a hate figure ?
5.where are we going to get this 20 mil for richards ? are you going to tell me that chelsea or man utd wont just come in with a higher bid ?
6.Who do you want to replace all these players you want to get rid . and where you going to get the money to buy these players.
7.also how can you suggest anything negative against masher when he is one of our best players and has been since the momenbt he arrived.

1. The best time to critisise and analyse is when you're in a good position so you aren't misguided. It doesn't make any difference in the long run anyway, we aren't good enough and thats it. The be all and end all.

2. He put some great crosses in, never moved, hoofed the ball, twice got done because he was to busy trying to play the man instead of the ball. Imagine him against a tricky winger instead of a power centre mid out of position. Deary me.... Not worth thinkin about.

3. Skyrtel has a mistake in him every game and is an accident waiting to happen. Not good enough.

4.  Read Fowlers book and look at the posts about Houllier's time at the club.

5. Dont' waste it on Kuyt and Babel in the first place then we'd have £20,000,000 wouldn't we.

6. Again, don't waste money in the first place on players who aren't what we need or aren't good enough.

7. How can I suggest anything negative against him? Oh yeah, how dare I do that. How dare england fans suggest Lampard and Gerrard isn't a good combination.

Two words for ya...

WAKE UP!

1. What else does your crystal ball say will happen in may ?

2.Nice to see you giving players time to adjust to a new league and team . At least give him a run of games

3.Name me one player who doesnt make a mistake in every game

4.So what Robbie says is the law and truth ? people didnt like thommo- is he a hated figure ? Niether are in the fans eyes

5.Yes its that easy isnt it - Football Manager style . To think we could of had a right back for 20 mil or we could of reached the CL final and semi final last year with their goals.

6. Are the greatest football manager in the world and can judge people before they arrive ? Will ask again who will replace all these players you want out .

7.Tell me exactly what masher has done wrong ?

[stmichael]

Agree on the Gerrard-Mascherano thing. For me it doesn't work and never will. It would take a huge step up from Mascherano in terms of his use of the ball, especially with Gerrard bombing all over the place.

As far as I'm concerned there wasnt a problem with playing 2 holding midfielders i.e. Alonso-Mascherano. I mean it worked and we had some great results and strung plenty of wins together with that system. Don't know why we changed it, even with the arrival of Keane.

[Simari]

1. What position are we in the league at the moment ?
2.Dossena has played how many games for us ? on sunday put in more dangerous crosses than anyone has this season
3.Skittle ? what has he done wrong ?
4.GH - since when did he become a hate figure ?
5.where are we going to get this 20 mil for richards ? are you going to tell me that chelsea or man utd wont just come in with a higher bid ?
6.Who do you want to replace all these players you want to get rid . and where you going to get the money to buy these players.
7.also how can you suggest anything negative against masher when he is one of our best players and has been since the momenbt he arrived.

1. The best time to critisise and analyse is when you're in a good position so you aren't misguided. It doesn't make any difference in the long run anyway, we aren't good enough and thats it. The be all and end all.

2. He put some great crosses in, never moved, hoofed the ball, twice got done because he was to busy trying to play the man instead of the ball. Imagine him against a tricky winger instead of a power centre mid out of position. Deary me.... Not worth thinkin about.

3. Skyrtel has a mistake in him every game and is an accident waiting to happen. Not good enough.

4.  Read Fowlers book and look at the posts about Houllier's time at the club.

5. Dont' waste it on Kuyt and Babel in the first place then we'd have £20,000,000 wouldn't we.

6. Again, don't waste money in the first place on players who aren't what we need or aren't good enough.

7. How can I suggest anything negative against him? Oh yeah, how dare I do that. How dare england fans suggest Lampard and Gerrard isn't a good combination.

Two words for ya...

WAKE UP!

1. What else does your crystal ball say will happen in may ?

2.Nice to see you giving players time to adjust to a new league and team . At least give him a run of games

3.Name me one player who doesnt make a mistake in every game

4.So what Robbie says is the law and truth ? people didnt like thommo- is he a hated figure ? Niether are in the fans eyes

5.Yes its that easy isnt it - Football Manager style . To think we could of had a right back for 20 mil or we could of reached the CL final and semi final last year with their goals.

6. Are the greatest football manager in the world and can judge people before they arrive ? Will ask again who will replace all these players you want out .

7.Tell me exactly what masher has done wrong ?

Masch hasn't done anything wrong. It's just that we're missing a third creative midfielder, if we are to make the best of his abilities while paired with Gerrard.

Hence the likening to a Lampard / Gerrard pairing. They don't offer anything creative and England looks so flat with them as a pairing.

[woof woof !]

Agree with some but not all of Stu's (Fo Dne) post. Whilst we can all agree or disagree in interminable permutations with Stu's assessment of our playing staff, the meat of his post is aimed at the performance of Rafa Benitez.

I'm certainly fed up with some of Rafa's selections both in terms of signings,teamsheets and tactics. His substitutions yesterday bordered on the bizarre, but having said that , we're off to a decent start in the prem and are once again in the group stages of the CL, who's to say that when the team begins to click we won't end up with one hell of a season ? .

Without dismissing Stu's concerns (I share many of them) I'm far from wanting Rafa out at this stage of the season, some may already be sharpening their knives, personally I'd give the fella the rest of this season to deliver us the kind of team , trophies and football that we all want. Until next May, despite my misgiving the man has my support.

[Fo Dne]

[Simari]

Agree on the Gerrard-Mascherano thing. For me it doesn't work and never will. It would take a huge step up from Mascherano in terms of his use of the ball, especially with Gerrard bombing all over the place.

As far as I'm concerned there wasnt a problem with playing 2 holding midfielders i.e. Alonso-Mascherano. I mean it worked and we had some great results and strung plenty of wins together with that system. Don't know why we changed it, even with the arrival of Keane.

Changed it to accomodate Keane in that support striker role upfront and consequently, Gerrard in midfield. Even now, we could move Gerrard out right and achieve better results. But Rafa won't have it and neither will Stevie.

[maypaxvobiscum]

And the game was also there to be lost . thank feck we didnt lose as it would of been mass suicide on here . we are 2nd in league playing  - same points as chelsea who are supposedly playing wonderful beautiful football . imagine what will happen when we start playing well as we know we are going too .

That'l be the day i die!

You only have to look at Hull atm and you could say the same. But we all know, like they do, they'll be fighting relegation next year. Just as we all know we'll be fighting for fourth spot, oh again

were people like this at the same time last year before the goals started flying in from torres and we found a formation that worked ?

the league was already lost by then what else was there to cheer about?

[Gerrard30391]

Keep living in ya dream world, can't even be arsed arguing with ya no more, really can't. You keep thinking we'll win the league and we're a great side... thats your perogative, i'm not stupid enough or clueless enough anymore to buy into it lad. Obviously you are...

I don't need a crystal ball to see a pile of  on a pitch either.

Whats  me off the most is I'm  right about the  we have, I'm never suprised and I can see it early, so why the  can't the manager who's getting paid £4,000,000 a year?

Its a disgrace, a complete disgrace.

He'll be wearing a blue shirt soon