Liverpool FC Forum

[JC_81]

Couldn't help feeling a tinge of anger in reading Stu's post, and I'm sure many of you felt the same.  Why?  Because deep down we know there is truth in some of it.

This team hasn't improved enough in the time Benitez has had and with the money he's spent.  Fact.  He overachieved immensely in his first season by winning the CL and then we showed good improvement in the league the following season, but like Stu and St Mike have suggested, we haven't made significant improvement since.  He is too negative in his tactics, our players seem instructed to contain teams rather then go for the win, and there is very little fluidity in our attacking play, even when we are supposedly playing well.  He is over-analytical, and imo a more simplistic tactical approach would yield better results with this lot of players.

It makes me wonder how Benitez managed to win the CL with players like Baros, Traore, Biscan etc...  Was Benitez the main factor?  Or do we underestimate the influence of his other backroom staff who have all since moved on?  Paco Herrera, Pako Ayesteran and Jose Ochotorrena have since left.  Heighway and Miller have also left.  Why has there been such a high turnover of coaching staff under Benitez?

Is language the problem?  Is he not able to convey his at times complex tactics to our players in a way that they understand exactly what is expected.  Is that why so many of our players look uncertain what to do when they get the ball?

Do we still trust this manager's judgement?  For me there have been too many poor signings, too many players rotated out of form and too many left disgruntled by either his cold-natured man management or his under-use of them.  He is ruthless in his own way, no doubt about it, and at times our players look too scared to make a mistake, and will too often make a square pass.  His obsession with effort and workrate over skill is worrying and unfounded.

I feel we are approaching judgement day for Benitez.  I have said before that the ONLY thing that saved his job last season was the fans' disapproval of the owners.  They were made out to be the villains and Benitez the 'hard done by'.  No doubt the owners are the greater evil, they are out to screw the club for cash, whereas all Benitez has ever tried to do for us is his best and what he thinks is best for the club.  But make no mistake about it, if the owners had kept their mouths shut and sorted the new stadium with their own cash, Benitez would probably have been sacked by now.  Last season was just not good enough, scraping into 4th was unacceptable and it still isn't.

Having said all that, who would you replace him with?  Now is not the time to change the manager, he has to be given until the end of the season.  My gut feeling?  We won't win a significant trophy this season and it will be Benitez's last.  I hope I'm wrong.

[faldo]

kronkamp...what was that all about

[maguskwt]

I dont' agree with the masch and gerrard pairing comment... I think they ARE a very good pairing. In fact I don't like the alonso mascherano pairing in a 4-4-2 at all... if you're talking about alonso mascherano pairing with Gerrard as an AM then yeah it's good... but in a 4-4-2 masch/gerrard HAS to be our first choice paring... next option would be alonso/gerrard... alonso/masch without gerrard is just plain terrible... as witnessed in our match against villa...

We played our best football last year with Alonso + Masch in central midfield and Stevie supporting Torres.

Fact is, it doesn't matter how you pair them - any combination is not good enough to win the EPL , if we have no creativity on the flanks or don't take the midfield quartet approach that Chelsea have taken.

that's just what i said... in a midfield 3 it's alright to play 2 holding midfielders with gerrard as AM or supporting Torres or whatever... what i'm saying is in a 2 CM formation... it has to be masch/gerrard or alonso/gerard because alonso/mascherano just doesn't have to forward drive...

[LegBarnes]

Right, I have to get all this off my chest.

I'm absoloutely fuming with Sunday's result. The main reason is that I expected it. Its just typical of Liverpool to find themselves in a good position before the start of play, and by the end to have completely it up through a complete lack of quality. Its something we're all becoming used to and to be honest, its starting to ware really thin with me.

Now, in the scheme of things, a draw away at Villa would be considered an acceptable result, especially without your two best players. More teams will go there and lose this season than will win. But what annoyed me the most was the mannor in which we got the result and performance yet again, along with the substituions and rediculous team selection which were again incredibley naive to say the least.

Playing no left side, playing an average striker on the wing AGAIN, playing Lucas...

Then bringing on Ngog, not recognising the teams failings, taking Keane and Kuyt off and replacing them with a defender and midfielder, its a joke. Its not a one off either, things like this happen regularly, far to regularly.

Rafa is in his fifth season now as LFC's manager and to be quite honest, the state of this team is awful. We have very average personel in a number of positions and despite him being here for so long, the problems within the team haven't been addressed and we still find ourselves lacking in to many departments.

The signings, for the large part aren't good enough. Now, I keep hearing money being mentioned. Its absoloutely no excuse. He's had millions and millions, plus he already had Hyypia, Carragher and Gerrard before he arrived who were all more than good enough to play in a championship winning team. I keep seeing players like Evra, Woodgate, Ashton, Boateng, moving around for the same prices we're signing absoloute rubbish.

Now its all well and good saying Chelsea can spend £40,000,000 a year on a player. Of course they can and that makes it difficult. But money doesn't always sign you quality and Rafa has had more than enough money to build a top class team. Obviously, financially we can't compete with United and Chelsea. But we can compete with Spurs, with Newcastle, Everton, Villa, West Ham, Portsmouth and Arsenal.

All of those teams have large numbers of players who'd get into our team and improve it and they've all signed players who'd have got into our team over the last few years that are alot better than what we have. Now with some of them, theres the risk of injury's and attitude. But I'm sorry, they are risks we HAVE to take to an extent due to our financial situation in comparrison to the top clubs. If you look at there teams, most of them are pretty similar to ours but without Gerrard and Torres. Now, I sit here looking at Spurs, They have a top class goalkeeper, one of the best around for me, (I'm not complaining about Pepe, I think he's been amazing for us and wouldn't swap him), they have two centre halfs who are far better than ours, they have a far better left back and a better right back. Now, defensively I'm not sure they have the perfect balance and obviously Woodgate and King are injury prone players, however, both are top players and far better than anything we have. I ask you, put Gerrard and Torres in there best 11 and would they have a better line up, I'm more than 100% sure they would.

I only used Spurs as an example though, thats what worries me, you could do the same with alot of sides in our league and you'd get the same result.

The other problem we have is the massive turnover of players aswell. We keep signing players in the same positions all the time. Go and sign a young but class player and play him in the right position. Its not rocket science. For example, £20,000,000 on Richards, ok, its alot of money, but its ya right back position or centre half (wherever ya want him to play) sorted for the next ten years. Then the year after you can add another peice of the jigsaw, and so on and so on.

A few years ago, when we finished on 82 points we had a class TEAM. Crouch was doing well, Kewell was performing, Alonso and Sissoko were doing the business, Gerrard was on fire, the defence was solid and Reina was quality. We then Added Fowler who seemed to add another dimension to our play and improve us even further. That side looked like it was going places, what it lacked was depth and options. We lacked a natural wide right player as an option (which is why i was made up with Pennant) and we lacked a backup striker as Morientes wasn't really upto it, we lacked the pace option upfront aswell.

Now that teams main weakness was the bench, the Harry Kewell situation and the left back and probably Crouch, but he was performing his role. Anyway, that summer Rafa decides to go out and sign the right winger, brilliant I'm thinking, real progress. Then the pacey striker comes in as an option, Bellamy. Ok, not who i wanted but not a bad player and will give us something different and I thought, right, this year, start with the same team and introduce the new faces slowly as subs and give them game time.

Instead what happens, Bellamy and Kuyt pretty much become first choice strikers which effectively made the signing of Pennant a waste of time. Then the three of them end up in our starting eleven completely up the balance of the team and making us look ordinary once again. We went backwards, any it wasn't a step backwards, it was a leap. We had a balanced side that was looking strong and potentially top class, then Fowler gets off, Crouch loses his place, Pennant's signed to provide crosses then finds out the players he would have been good for aren't in the side and everything falls to bits.

Over the next couple of years the problems weren't addressed and we now find ourself in a poor situation in my opinion.

For me, Hyypia is the best centre half I've seen at Liverpool since Mark Wright, who was easily equal to or better than. He's never been adequately replaced and is still our best centre back. We've never had a great left back, Riise was good on his day but no consistency and prone to the hoof but this Dossena bloke looks absoloutely no better. The lad can cross a ball, but he can't defend for toffee and he's just as prone to the hoof. His movements also awful. On the right, we went from the brilliant Markus Babbel, to the more than decent and very steady Steve Finnan to Arbeloa, who's nothing more than an average full back in the Luke Young mould, maybe not even that good.

In midfield Gerrard is still there but has been abused by the manager completely. If you're going to play him centre mid, play him there and leave him alone and build the side around him. If not, play him on the right and leave him there, again building the side around him. Don't put him where you feel like, put him somewhere and get the best out of him and leave him there for good.

The midfield lacks balance completely. Mascherano and Gerrard aren't a good pairning at all. They are quite frankly an awful one in my opinion, they are flat and neither have the ability to dicate a game and take up the right positions in attacking areas to influence the game in that mannor and help us with our attacking play. Alonso and Gerrard for me is the best combination, as much as I like Mascherano, I think he's the wrong type of player for us, in Chelsea's system he'd be incredible but we don't and never have played that way.

We then have Lucas Levia who for me shouldn't be anywhere near a Liverpool team. He's awful to be quite honest and IMO another £6-7m wasted.

Upfront Keane and Kuyt are decent enough to play off Torres. Kuyt isn't anywhere near as bad as made out, but he's not a great player. He just solid, he's decent at knock downs and link play and he's a battler and a believer. However, he's not and never will be a wide player and its unfair asking him to play there as he looks hopelessly out of his depth.

The truth is we're absoloutely miles away.

Now more so than ever I feel. I genuinely believe Torres, Keane, Alonso, Gerrard, Carragher and Reina need a team build around them the thing is we don't have the years left anymore like we did, Keane, Gerrard and Carragher aren't young players any more. Mascherano for me doesn't really suit the style of play and I think the rest just aren't upto it.

I'm really depressed with the team at the minute and I can't see this season being a good one in any way shape or form.

I want Lucas, Babel, Voronin, Bennayoun, Dossena, Skrytel and Pennant all to be shown the door and new blood brough in. I don't want to see Arbeloa in the team every week and I am getting sick of the constant playing players out of position, bad sigings, bad excuses, bigging up of woeful performances andawful players.

Rafa thinks we're all stupid and to be honest I want him out. Now. I'm sick of it.

Thanks for the Champions league and other cups wins. I loved every second, but you'll never win us the league. Shut the door on your way out and leave now before you become a hate figure like Houllier.

Utter tripe But you knew that was comming.

Feel you have lost the plot so we need to buy a whole new team what a load of cr.ap.

You total abuse of players at our club isn't on more so at such a earlyer time of season.

Its clear to see the players was not in game due to fact rafa set them up for a draw.

3 defensive midfielders started and striker on right wing not much chance to get a goal with that setup.

I put blame for that game purely on Rafa's back and it isn't end of world but no way you can put blame on players being played out of postion.

It shows you are clearly a angry little man you need to calm down take a step back and look at bigger picture.

I can understand you are angry as I was but only players in that team that played there real postions was alonso , masch and back 4 , other 4 was not where they normaly play.

That can only be managers fault end off.

[zarababe]

Yes this is the final straw (slurp slurp slurp slurp..) - Rafa out .. Berbatov inn ... NOW MAN!!

Then their's BIG SAM YEHH !!! Get the dyamnic duo back together - big sam little sam YEH YEH YEH!!

I want this man Rafa out now - off with you now and take Torres with ya

[Rush Job]

Yes this is the final straw (slurp slurp slurp slurp..) - Rafa out .. Berbatov inn ... NOW MAN!!

Then their's BIG SAM YEHH !!! Get the dyamnic duo back together - big sam little sam YEH YEH YEH!!

I want this man Rafa out now - off with you now and take Torres with ya

Was just waiting for that.
Can always count on our Zara.

[metalhead]

While I do blame Rafa's decisions in the transfer market I still believe that our slow activity in getting out top priority costed us. For example, If we acted faster and got the likes of Vidic and Alves (players that we were heavily linked in the past and almost got them), I don't think many would complain at Rafa.

[Dundalk]

When are we getting Big Sam in?

The glory days will be here again soon

[mkingdom]

It is not as bleak as the OP suggests, but I can't fathom Rafa's actions on Sunday.

0-0 with a chance to go 2 points clear of the title contenders nice and early, and he brings on a defender to play left mid.

When Torres goes off he leaves two recognised strikers on the wings, and plays an unproven kid up front, who frankly looked lost.

Why would we not play Kuyt and Keane up front and put Babel on the left, and Yossi on the right??

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Yes we are joint top, and we are there by playing rubbish, and things could be a lot worse...but things are not right.

Some of Rafa's decisions are unfathomable and hard to defend.

90 minutes without a shot on target on Sunday is woeful with strikers in the squad (fit ones) worth over £30m available to him. 

If we win the league, then of course Rafa will be a genius and playing for a draw at Villa will have been correct.

If however, we are fifth or sixth, which I can see happening, then  the damage will have been done, and no matter how much we all loved winning the CL, it will be time to get someone else to have a go at winning the league before Gerrard retires!!!

[zarababe]

YEH ! GLORY GLORY SAM-A-LULIAA AS THE REDS LUMP IT UP FRONT (to the tune of ..as the saints go marching in)  - here wer come Intertoto YEH !!

[Ciggy]

When are we getting Big Sam in?

The glory days will be here again soon

Ivan Campo IN!!!!!!!!!

Steven Gerrard OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bigmick]

Well I've just read the topic starter and it's an excellent post. Those of us who have been asking for proper football discussion can't ask for a better topic starter than that. I don't agree with parts of it, but I'll read through the whole thread and have a think before I post. I see the "bring in Sam" putdown has raised its head again People probably ought to remember that fans are allowed to criticse, it really is OK.

I ought to say as well that while not in way shape or form would I want Sam Allardyce as manager (did anybody, ever?) he did do an absolutely unbelieveable job at Bolton. Incredible for a team with their resources to get into the top six in the Premiership. Anyway, no matter I'll give the other contributions a good read.

[J*o*n*D*o*e]

i have it on good authority that Rick Parry was seen today buying straws so we can all breath easy.

[faldo]

i heard lucas neil is on his way to to save the day.

[Rush Job]

i heard lucas neil is on his way to to save the day.

If your hearing voices saying evil sh!t like that i`d see a doctor mate.