Liverpool FC Forum

[JBG]

I know that most people that take the view that GH should be sacked want Martin O’ Neill as the next Liverpool manager. He’s probably the fans’ first choice.

However, there are also a number of people out there who dismiss O’ Neill as being over-rated, the darling of the media, has achieved little, and is managing a side in a Mickey Mouse league.

Here are my arguments for appointing Martin O’ Neill as next Liverpool manager.

1. His achievements as manager: O’ Neill brought Wycombe into the Nationwide and established them there. This is no mean feat: any club that comes from the conference and stays in the league have to be commended. O’ Neill showed with Wycombe that he can motivate and train ordinary players and make the best of scarce resources.

O’ Neill did an excellent job at Wycombe and must be congradulated for it, but other managers have brought clubs from the conference and established them in the league, like Jan Molby at Kidderminster, and while O’ Neill’s achievements at Wycombe are notable, they are not on their own reason to hand him the Liverpool job.

O’ Neill’s next achievement was to get Leicester promoted to the Premiership. Again this is not something to rave about, but it is an achievement none the less. There are at least 12 clubs a season in Division 1 with a chance of promotion, and Division One has many reasonable managers. Anybody that can climb above the competition deserves a clap on the back. Again however, while O’ Neill’s success here should be noted, it is not earth shattering and is not reason in itself to give him a big job.

O’ Neill’s next great success was keeping Leicester in the Premiership. Let us remember that Leicester are not a big club. They have never had much money to spend. They must make do with buying untested youngsters from the lower leagues, taking on journey men and bringing in the occasional over the hill former star. It is the same today as it was in O’ Neill’s day. MON kept Leicester in the Premier League and that is a fine achievement, given the lack of resources. It is an achievement to put him in the frame for a top-ish job, but lets not forget that other managers have also succeded in getting modest clubs promoted and keeping them in the Premiership. Sam Allyerdyce and Alan Curbishley have also achieved this. Indeed, Alan Curbishley’s league success at Charlton probably exceeds that of O’ Neill at Leicester. O’ Neill’s league campaigns were a major success with Leicester. They were a competitive robust side that made the absolute best of the resources available. While they never threatened to break into the top 6, O’ Neill’s Leciester always stayed well clear of relegation.

People should also remember that bigger clubs than Leicester have been promoted but have failed to consolidate their position in the Premiership. Peter Reid’s Sunderland are a prime example.

People must also remember that when O’ Neill left, Leicester were quickly relegated.

O’ Neill’s success in the Premiership with Leicester were a fine achievement, but they have been equalled by Alan Curbishley at Charlton.

O’ Neill’s next success at Leicester was in the Cups. He won 2 league cups and got to another league final. People might argue that he beat Tranmere in one final. However, we ourselves beat Birmingham in Cardiff and that didn’t stop people singing GH’s praises at the time. A lot of small teams might prosper under good management, but O’ Neill managed to drag the journey men of Leicester up to the level of winning 2 trophies.

People might say that they are Mickey Mouse trophies: maybe they are to Liverpool, but for a club like Leicester winning 2 league cups in the space of a couple of years must be the equivalent of winning the league.

In all O’ Neill did the absolute best with the players and resources he had available at Leicester. Some might say that Alan Curbishely has Charlton challenging for 4th spot this season and argue that this is a far greater achievement than that of MON. However, Curbishley has managed Charlton far longer than O’Neill managed Leicester. Who can say that if MON did not stay at Leicester they wouldn’t be in Charlton’s position now?

MON then took the Celtic job. I myself thought at the time it was a step bacwards. Celtic were a joke of a club: a huge fanbase but with a rubbish, consistently under performing team (sound familiar anybody?). MON brought in a few of his own players, motivated the others and 12 months later Celtic were Scottish treble champions. People forget how low Celtic had fallen under John Barnes and Kenny Dalglish. Rangers were absolutely dominating Scotland. O’ Neill changed that over night.

O’ Neill’s Celtic teams have prospered in Europe. While they have not managed to get out of the group stages of the CL’s league, they have narrowly missed out on doing so, not bad given the resources available to them. O’ Neill’s Celtic have beaten many good teams at Parkhead. Last season he brought Celtic to the UEFA Cup final, beating Liverpool along the way. People claim again that the UEFA Cup is a Mickey Mouse tournament but MON getting Celtic to a UEFA Cup final would be the equivalent of Arsene Wenger getting Arsenal to the CL final this season. Success at a club is relative to its resources, size and history. Middlesboro winning the League Cup this season was the greatest moment in their history and a good achievement by their manager. Celtic are not a club currently capable of winning the CL even if Alex Ferguson or Bob Paisley managed them. A UEFA Cup appearance in my opinion is a major achievement for a club that has a transfer budget no bigger than Everton’s.

2. O’ Neill’s achievements as a player. While O’ Neill was no legend, he was none the less a very good player. He played under Brian Clough (and obviously learned a few things) in a side that for two years dominated Europe. O’ Neill understands the game from the perspective of a player, more so than GH or Wenger. His achievements as a player would command respect in any dressingroom.

3. O’ Neill is an intelligent man. He has a degree in law from Queen’s University Belfast! Listen to the man speak: he oozes class. The reason he is loved by journalists is because he actually listens to their questions and answers them as intelligently (and honestly) as he can.

4. The guy is passionate and has a burning desire to win. Watch O’ Neill bouncing around when Celtic score! Also, just because he isn’t a pyscho like Roy Keane or a bitter twisted ba#ta#d like Alex Ferguson doesn’t mean he is not the equal of those guys in terms of tunnel vision desire to be the best. Beneath MON’s calm visage is a guy burning with ambition and determination.

5. His ability to motivate players: Tony Cottee, once the most expensive footballer in England, had a poor career when he moved to Everton and most dismissed by many as being over hyped and a waste of talent. People must remember that when O’ Neill signed him he produced the best form of his career (despite being in his 30s) and in 1998 he was many people’s dark horse bet to win player of the year. Stan Collymore briefly returned to spectacular form under MON at Leicester before injury (a nasty leg break) put an end to his resurgance. People now a days laugh at Emile Heskey. When Heskey was at Leicester he was one of the best prospects in the Premiership. Some compared him with George Weah! He has since struggled for Liverpool. Maybe it has something to do with MON?

Look at guys like Didier Agathe and Bob Balde at Celtic. They are limited players playing at their absolute best under MON, competing well in Europe. El Hadji Diouff is a far more talented player than Agathe and yet Agathe is playing consistently better than him. Imagine what O’ Neill could do with Diouff!

Last week Celtic beat Barcelona, a side that have won something like 10 games out of their last 11 in Spain and in Europe. Maybe Celtic will lose heavily in Spain, but at least they have put themselves in with a fighting chance of progressing. The same night an expensively assembled Liverpool side could only draw with an average Marseille side.

Just imagine what O’ Neill could do at Liverpool and the players available.

Finally, I want to address the arguments of people who say MON is unproven (I disagree but whatever).

1. GH’s achievements were no better than MON’s when he joined Liverpool.
2. Arsene Wenger hadn’t won anything serious before he joined Arsenal.
3. Bill Shankly was relatively unproven when he came to Liverpool.
4. Bob Paisley, Joe Fagan, Kenny Dalglish were all unproven as managers when they were handed the Liverpool job.
5. Alex Ferguson had major success in Scotland before coming south.
6. Graeme Souness is a bad example as he effectively bought the championship for Rangers when he was in Scotland: O’ Neill was operating on equal terms with Rangers nowadays. Jock Stein won the European Cup with a Scottish league side: the argument that a guy who manages a team in Scotland won’t cut it in the Premiership is false in my eyes.


What do people think?

Constructive answers please, no "MON is over-rated": please explain why you think MON is over rated or not cut out for the job.

As I said, I don't take the old "MON is managing in Scotland: look what happened to Souness" line because Souness is a bad example and for every Graeme Souness there is an Alex Ferguson.

[Owzat]

Before I kick off, I would like to point out I don't believe O'Neill definitely won't make a good manager at Liverpool FC but I am not that impressed with what he has done so far. I believe he is living on reputation, a reputation which has yet to be truly tested (domestically, couldn't give a sh1t about Europe

1. His achievements as manager: O’ Neill brought Wycombe into the Nationwide and established them there. This is no mean feat: any club that comes from the conference and stays in the league have to be commended. O’ Neill showed with Wycombe that he can motivate and train ordinary players and make the best of scarce resources.

O’ Neill did an excellent job at Wycombe and must be congradulated for it, but other managers have brought clubs from the conference and established them in the league, like Jan Molby at Kidderminster, and while O’ Neill’s achievements at Wycombe are notable, they are not on their own reason to hand him the Liverpool job.

Then that makes any manager in a lower division a candidate. It is one thing to do well in the lower leagues with no money but that doesn't mean someone will succeed if given big cash to spend.

O’ Neill’s next achievement was to get Leicester promoted to the Premiership. Again this is not something to rave about, but it is an achievement none the less. There are at least 12 clubs a season in Division 1 with a chance of promotion, and Division One has many reasonable managers. Anybody that can climb above the competition deserves a clap on the back. Again however, while O’ Neill’s success here should be noted, it is not earth shattering and is not reason in itself to give him a big job.

O’ Neill’s next great success was keeping Leicester in the Premiership. Let us remember that Leicester are not a big club. They have never had much money to spend. They must make do with buying untested youngsters from the lower leagues, taking on journey men and bringing in the occasional over the hill former star. It is the same today as it was in O’ Neill’s day. MON kept Leicester in the Premier League and that is a fine achievement, given the lack of resources. It is an achievement to put him in the frame for a top-ish job, but lets not forget that other managers have also succeded in getting modest clubs promoted and keeping them in the Premiership. Sam Allyerdyce and Alan Curbishley have also achieved this. Indeed, Alan Curbishley’s league success at Charlton probably exceeds that of O’ Neill at Leicester. O’ Neill’s league campaigns were a major success with Leicester. They were a competitive robust side that made the absolute best of the resources available. While they never threatened to break into the top 6, O’ Neill’s Leciester always stayed well clear of relegation.

Other teams with similar financial situations have done better than O'Neill's top ten finishes. Again a lack of money does not mean someone given money will spend it wisely. Houllier has wasted lots of money and look where we are now

People should also remember that bigger clubs than Leicester have been promoted but have failed to consolidate their position in the Premiership. Peter Reid’s Sunderland are a prime example.

Yet teams like Charlton and Birmingham are right up there. Bruce could be a better candidate

People must also remember that when O’ Neill left, Leicester were quickly relegated.

Wasn't that the same with Kinnear at Wimbledon and Redknapp at West Ham?!?!?!?

O’ Neill’s next success at Leicester was in the Cups. He won 2 league cups and got to another league final. People might argue that he beat Tranmere in one final. However, we ourselves beat Birmingham in Cardiff and that didn’t stop people singing GH’s praises at the time. A lot of small teams might prosper under good management, but O’ Neill managed to drag the journey men of Leicester up to the level of winning 2 trophies.

The League cup is a mockery, an absolute joke. Arsenal never take it seriously and manure only took it seriously when they got to Cardiff. Liverpool vs manure apart, when was the last time two Champions League (contention) teams reached the final?

People might say that they are Mickey Mouse trophies: maybe they are to Liverpool, but for a club like Leicester winning 2 league cups in the space of a couple of years must be the equivalent of winning the league.

Minor tournament = minor success. Might as well be renamed the Premier LDV Vans Trophy

In all O’ Neill did the absolute best with the players and resources he had available at Leicester. Some might say that Alan Curbishely has Charlton challenging for 4th spot this season and argue that this is a far greater achievement than that of MON. However, Curbishley has managed Charlton far longer than O’Neill managed Leicester. Who can say that if MON did not stay at Leicester they wouldn’t be in Charlton’s position now?

Doing the best with journeymen footballers is not what we need at Liverpool.

MON then took the Celtic job. I myself thought at the time it was a step bacwards. Celtic were a joke of a club: a huge fanbase but with a rubbish, consistently under performing team (sound familiar anybody?). MON brought in a few of his own players, motivated the others and 12 months later Celtic were Scottish treble champions. People forget how low Celtic had fallen under John Barnes and Kenny Dalglish. Rangers were absolutely dominating Scotland. O’ Neill changed that over night.

Ferguson doing it with Aberdeen was considerably harder, Rangers under McLeish are nowhere near the same challenge

O’ Neill’s Celtic teams have prospered in Europe. While they have not managed to get out of the group stages of the CL’s league, they have narrowly missed out on doing so, not bad given the resources available to them. O’ Neill’s Celtic have beaten many good teams at Parkhead. Last season he brought Celtic to the UEFA Cup final, beating Liverpool along the way. People claim again that the UEFA Cup is a Mickey Mouse tournament but MON getting Celtic to a UEFA Cup final would be the equivalent of Arsene Wenger getting Arsenal to the CL final this season. Success at a club is relative to its resources, size and history. Middlesboro winning the League Cup this season was the greatest moment in their history and a good achievement by their manager. Celtic are not a club currently capable of winning the CL even if Alex Ferguson or Bob Paisley managed them. A UEFA Cup appearance in my opinion is a major achievement for a club that has a transfer budget no bigger than Everton’s.

Relative success does not mean a successful manager at a small club will do well at a bigger club. Celtic have not impressed me that much in Europe, though they have done quite well. Name one big name team they have beaten and I don't count Liverpool or Porto.



Last week Celtic beat Barcelona, a side that have won something like 10 games out of their last 11 in Spain and in Europe. Maybe Celtic will lose heavily in Spain, but at least they have put themselves in with a fighting chance of progressing. The same night an expensively assembled Liverpool side could only draw with an average Marseille side.

Playing 10 vs 9 they won 1-0 at home against a team that is in the UEFA Cup. Call me cynical, but how exactly is that proof that O'Neill could take Liverpool to the Premiership?

Finally, I want to address the arguments of people who say MON is unproven (I disagree but whatever).

6. Graeme Souness is a bad example as he effectively bought the championship for Rangers when he was in Scotland: O’ Neill was operating on equal terms with Rangers nowadays. Jock Stein won the European Cup with a Scottish league side: the argument that a guy who manages a team in Scotland won’t cut it in the Premiership is false in my eyes.

That isn't the argument. Ferguson achieved in Scotland with a non-old firm team, Walter Smith has also done nothing in the south. You can name 1,000 managers who had no record and went on to great success but a) that goes against most of your argument to date (that he has achieved great things in relative terms) and b) there is no hard and fast rule either way, any former player with NO MANAGERIAL EXPERIENCE like King Kenny could achieve success at the first attempt.

[Owzat]

We can take on any manager and not be guaranteed success. My only fear of Martin O'Neill is that his reputation is massive, his achievements relatively small

[redandblue]

He has taken on a huge job at Celtic, with the second biggest home attendance in the Uk, and immense pressure to turn Celtic around and to get ahead of Rangers. He has done this and his team have played some exceptional teams in Europe over the past four years and are unbeaten at home.

Scottish football in general is a joke but Celtic and Rangers are massive clubs. Taking Celtic to a UEFA Cup final with a relatively small squad was a huge acievement.

He'd be great at Liverpool.

[stmichael]

you have pretty much summed up everything i feel about martin o neill. he is the most sought after man out there. the fact that he is on a rolling contract at celtic suggests to me that he won't be there next season. yes it's fine being 16 points clear in the league and having fantastic support but the truth is o'neill cant take them any further.

the only thing for him to still achieve up there is european success. ok he went close last season by losing in the UEFA cup final but nobody remembers the runners up. that team will mainly be remembered for the 80,000 fans that travelled to seville to support them. celtics champions league record under him is also very poor. although they are unbeaten at home in that time, they haven't won away from home. realistically they are never going to win the champions league.

true he can literally pick his next job, and with whichever one it is will come added pressure. i agree with you that he speaks well and comes across as a guy who is extremely passionate about the game. that's why if the choice came between liverpool or man united i hope he would choose us. in terms of passionate support there is no contest between the two sets of fans. at the end of the day man united are no longer a proper football club- they're a PLC, a business organisation. well there's a difference between a philosophy and a big bumper sticker.

o'neill would turn this club into a force again. i have faith in that. whether it happens it up to that truly incompetent board of ours.

[greenred]

Well thought out piece JBG,your analysis is spot on.Im getting fed up with people dismissing O`Neill without offering a realistic alternative.Steve Bruce and Alan Curbishley are comedy suggestions,Moyes even funnier,Ranieri has won nothing,O`leary is a pillock,Toshack past it.The fact is that MON is the best qualified man for the job and no amount of discussion can avoid that conclusion.He knows his players and he knows how to get the best out of his players,he extracts every last ounce of effort from them and then asks for more.He is exactly the kind of man we need at Anfield right now.I agree with you about Diouf and Heskey.I can see those two getting a new lease of life under O`Neill.

[The Manhattan Project]

I want Martin O'Neill to be the manager of Liverpool F.C. for next season.

[JBG]

I respect your views Owzat but could I respectively state that your replies are merely picking small holes in my arguements?

I already watered down O' Neill's success at Wycombe: it's a good achievement but not one to make him the next manager of Liverpool. If you read what I said I argued that his achievements at Wycombe were only one of many arguements in favour of O' Neill.

As for the other sides that have done just as well as O' Neill's Leiciester, could you please name who they are? Teams like Norwich in 1993 or Sheff UTD or Crystal Palace before them don't really count as wages have spiralled out of control since around 1996 and back then there wasn't an enormous difference between a guy playing for Utd's wage and a guy playing for a team at the lower end of the table. Nowaday's the smaller clubs cannot afford to pay players more than 25grand a week: those that have have experienced financial difficulty. Charlton have done extremely well under Curbishley: I admit that, but he's there a long time and it is only really this season that they are making serious progress towards the top 6: they could still finish in the lower half of the table this year.

I don't understand the Birmingham arguement: they are only in the Premiership less than 2 seasons and they have spent money on guys like Savage, Upson, Taylor, Morrison, Clemence, Cisse, Duggary etc. O' Neill didn't have that kind of money and anyway Birmingham have done no better than O' Neill's Leiciester.

Fair enough, the Carling Cup is a small tournament but you have missed my point entirely. Its a small tournament to the likes of Liverpool, UTD and Arsenal but its a very big thing for clubs like Leicester and Boro: its sliverware that guarantees a place in Europe. My point is that the best a small club can hope for is a League Cup, and O' Neill achieved that. Of course we won't be satisfied if he came here and won only that!!!! MON would come here to win the Championship.

As for playing down Europe I simply cannot understand your point. O' Neill has won everything going in Scotland, and its only natural that he should try to persevere in Europe. With the limited resources he has available and the fact that Celtic had no modern pedigree in Europe, I would argue that he has performed excellently!

If he comes to Anfield his no. 1 brief will be to first ensure that we qualify for the CL every year as it is vital to keeping money come in and we also need CL football to attract top players. Of course we will need a manager who is serious about winning the Premiership but at the end of the day we are a club steeped in European history and European football is vital to the club.

I always greatly respect your views Owzat but I honestly don't think you have put forward a valid arguement against O' Neill other than playing down his achievements and saying he is over rated by the press.

I personally think that O' Neill has a proven pedigree, when I meant the "unproven" point I was pre-empting the arguement that he is unproven. Even if we were to agree that he is unproven (and I'm not agreeing) a proven track record in the Premiership is not a vital qualification to be a top manager in it: almost all of the current managers in the Premiership were "unproven" at the very highest level before they got their jobs.

I know some people rightfully say there is a lot of hype over O' Neill and maybe they are right to be sceptical, but trust me this guy is solid gold and there is a reason for all the hype.

[JBG]

Finally, I want to address the arguments of people who say MON is unproven (I disagree but whatever).

6. Graeme Souness is a bad example as he effectively bought the championship for Rangers when he was in Scotland: O’ Neill was operating on equal terms with Rangers nowadays. Jock Stein won the European Cup with a Scottish league side: the argument that a guy who manages a team in Scotland won’t cut it in the Premiership is false in my eyes.

That isn't the argument. Ferguson achieved in Scotland with a non-old firm team, Walter Smith has also done nothing in the south. You can name 1,000 managers who had no record and went on to great success but a) that goes against most of your argument to date (that he has achieved great things in relative terms) and b) there is no hard and fast rule either way, any former player with NO MANAGERIAL EXPERIENCE like King Kenny could achieve success at the first attempt.

With respect Owzat I don't think you read my post correctly....read the bit in the brackets ("I disagree but whatever").

[Owzat]

The "small budget" argument is pointless as O'Neill did nothing special in the league. If Liverpool fans want us to be mid-table then he is more than qualified

I've already given two examples of managers getting teams up there, but here are a few examples :

2003/2004 Charlton 4th (currently)
2002/2003 Everton 7th
2001/2002 West Ham 7th
2000/2001 Ipswich 5th, Sunderland 7th
1999/2000 Sunderland 7th
1998/1999 West Ham 5th
1997/1998 West Ham 8th
1996/1997 Wimbledon 8th
1995/1996 Everton 7th, West Ham 10th

They may not have finished in the top four but they've done no worse than Leicester under golden balls. You can argue it wasn't done consistently, bar West Ham, but if O'Neill is so good how come he never got that high? (cue money argument, yet to see any hard stats and I can't be ar$ed to dig around on such a small point)

My point, and I keep having to reiterate it, is not that O'Neill is ***** but that his reputation is such that he would be linked with God's job if there ever was a vacancy. Other managers have done what he has, why do so many of you think the sun shines out of his ar$e?

[greenred]

He instills confidence.Theres not many like that.

[jonnymac1979]

I heard a few months back off a friend of mine that (don't laugh!!!) a "neighbour of Celtic midfielder Paul Lambert" wanted to stake a few bob on the fact that Martin O'Neill WOULD be the next Liverpool manager.  There was no market to bet on because Liverpool still have a manager, so no bet was placed.

This man had spoken with Lambert about this situation and it was the talk of Glasgow at the time, this must only be about three or four months ago. 

Why would Lambert lie?

Perhaps a load of bullsh#t, perhaps it's true.

[JBG]

Paul Lambert is a Celtic player. Won the CL with Dortmund in 1997.

Owzat, you still haven't convinced me that MON isn't the guy for the job.

I'm not saying he's Shankly, Wenger or Ferguson, but he's probably the best available at the moment.

I mean some people are suggesting Gordon Strachen. To me thats abolsutely preposterus!

[jonnymac1979]

That first post you made JBG, print it out and post it to David Moores, you've convinced me, but I wanted O'Neill should Houllier leave anyway.

[Supermarius]

Great Post Jbg! You did your homework on him and it makes me believe even more hes the man for Liverpool Fc.
It doesnt matter wat kinda record a manager has ,too many times they fall flat on their face, and as someone said..wenger hadnt won nothing great when he went to arsenal. Bring on Oneill!