The 4-3-3

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Ben Patrick » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:37 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:18 pm wrote:
celtic-red! » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:33 pm wrote:I would be shocked if BR goes 4-4-2.  I can't see it happening and will be very happy to see it banished from the club.

Brendan in his own time went over to barcelona on numerous occasions to study there training methods.

He is a huge fan of 4-3-3.  This is the system he likes to use and is part of his football philosophy.

Why would he suddenly ditch that for bog standard 4-4-2.  Its not gonna happen.

4-3-3 will be then new system.


i wouldnt get too bogged down in the discussions about formations, the game is about players, the team with the best players generally wins the league.
barcelona would still have a boss side whatever formation they played and on the flip side the likes of crewe or leyton orient wouldnt suddenly win the prem if they started playing 4-3-3 because at the end of the day their players arent good enough.



While what you have said is obviously true the formation and tactics still make a hell of a difference.
Otherwise you could fck rodgers off and just ask one of the tea ladies to do the job  :D
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Postby celtic-red! » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:41 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:18 pm wrote:
celtic-red! » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:33 pm wrote:I would be shocked if BR goes 4-4-2.  I can't see it happening and will be very happy to see it banished from the club.

Brendan in his own time went over to barcelona on numerous occasions to study there training methods.

He is a huge fan of 4-3-3.  This is the system he likes to use and is part of his football philosophy.

Why would he suddenly ditch that for bog standard 4-4-2.  Its not gonna happen.

4-3-3 will be then new system.


i wouldnt get too bogged down in the discussions about formations, the game is about players, the team with the best players generally wins the league.
barcelona would still have a boss side whatever formation they played and on the flip side the likes of crewe or leyton orient wouldnt suddenly win the prem if they started playing 4-3-3 because at the end of the day their players arent good enough.


but the philosophy at Barcelona is and will always will be 4-3-3.  Barca do sometimes play 3-4-3 but the main point is they will always play with 3 forwards!

My point was Brendan Rodgers has a philosophy that he brings to his football teams and that is also 4-3-3.
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Postby aCe' » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:33 pm

Im not against the 4-3-3 as a formation for the club going forward. However, the point I was trying to make is that we currently do not seem to have the payer to implement his preferred style of play. People talk about the likes of Barcelona, Arsenal and to a large extent Madrid playing a 4-3-3 but all these sides have quality wide players who make the setup work. What we have at the club atm is a side more adept at playing a more direct style with 2 upfront and less emphasis placed on the wide player. If Rodgers does decide to go ahead with the 4-3-3, then I think we'd be better off investing in quality wide players rather than improving other areas of the squad that (at least on paper) dont seem as thin.

Moving Suarez to the flank for me would be a huge mistake. To begin with, I've never seen him played down the flank for Ajax or Uruguay. All his best work is done when he comes deeper and runs at centerbacks through the middle opening up spaces for players around him. Whether he can adjust to the defensive duties and the tight marking he'll no doubt face down the flank is anyones guess. A big gamble to say the least. It also leaves us with a largely inexperienced and unproven lone striker in Borini should he be picked for the central role. Down the other flank, it's anyone's guess who gets the nod. None of Downing, Bellamy and Cole can be relied on to contribute week in week out as far as I'm concerned.

Yes it is early, but the sooner we sort out our issues the better. Most of the sides around us challenging for those top4 spots have already made significant improvements to their sides despite (potentially) losing key players. If we do indeed end up signing only Allen and Dempsey then I worry for the balance of the side going into next season.
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Postby Ben Patrick » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:13 pm

aCe' » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:33 pm wrote:Im not against the 4-3-3 as a formation for the club going forward. However, the point I was trying to make is that we currently do not seem to have the payer to implement his preferred style of play. People talk about the likes of Barcelona, Arsenal and to a large extent Madrid playing a 4-3-3 but all these sides have quality wide players who make the setup work. What we have at the club atm is a side more adept at playing a more direct style with 2 upfront and less emphasis placed on the wide player. If Rodgers does decide to go ahead with the 4-3-3, then I think we'd be better off investing in quality wide players rather than improving other areas of the squad that (at least on paper) dont seem as thin.

Moving Suarez to the flank for me would be a huge mistake. To begin with, I've never seen him played down the flank for Ajax or Uruguay. All his best work is done when he comes deeper and runs at centerbacks through the middle opening up spaces for players around him. Whether he can adjust to the defensive duties and the tight marking he'll no doubt face down the flank is anyones guess. A big gamble to say the least. It also leaves us with a largely inexperienced and unproven lone striker in Borini should he be picked for the central role. Down the other flank, it's anyone's guess who gets the nod. None of Downing, Bellamy and Cole can be relied on to contribute week in week out as far as I'm concerned.

Yes it is early, but the sooner we sort out our issues the better. Most of the sides around us challenging for those top4 spots have already made significant improvements to their sides despite (potentially) losing key players. If we do indeed end up signing only Allen and Dempsey then I worry for the balance of the side going into next season.


ace totally disagree about Suarez

This system will be made for him.
It's in a two where he goes drifting around the pitch and leaves us with nobody up there.
He will have the licence to play right or left, not on the wing, more in the spaces between the defence and midfield.

I read this thing about Rodgers coaching methods being modelled on Barca's and being broken down into 8 zones, its a great read and Suarez would be deployed as an inside forward, the same position that Messi and Alexis played for Barca last season.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:17 pm

celtic-red! » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:41 pm wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:18 pm wrote:
celtic-red! » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:33 pm wrote:I would be shocked if BR goes 4-4-2.  I can't see it happening and will be very happy to see it banished from the club.

Brendan in his own time went over to barcelona on numerous occasions to study there training methods.

He is a huge fan of 4-3-3.  This is the system he likes to use and is part of his football philosophy.

Why would he suddenly ditch that for bog standard 4-4-2.  Its not gonna happen.

4-3-3 will be then new system.


i wouldnt get too bogged down in the discussions about formations, the game is about players, the team with the best players generally wins the league.
barcelona would still have a boss side whatever formation they played and on the flip side the likes of crewe or leyton orient wouldnt suddenly win the prem if they started playing 4-3-3 because at the end of the day their players arent good enough.


but the philosophy at Barcelona is and will always will be 4-3-3.  Barca do sometimes play 3-4-3 but the main point is they will always play with 3 forwards!

My point was Brendan Rodgers has a philosophy that he brings to his football teams and that is also 4-3-3.


spain at times didnt even play with a recognised centre forward but won the euro`s. when scotland played that system in a qualifier against the czech republic they were lambasted and even ridiculed for being uber negative, spain use that same system and everyone talks about them being total footballers that can do the lot.
how effective a system is depends on the quality of the players.
barcelona`s success is down to the fact that they have some unbelievably talented footballers not the fact they play 4-3-3
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Postby Ben Patrick » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:30 pm

I think if Spain had of played a striker they would have p!ssed the tournament.
Playing no strikers made them more predictable for me and i agree it wouldnt have mattered what system they would have used as they were so much better.

But tactics and systems make a big difference in the majority of games.

Spain are just freakish with how good they are and the options that they have.
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Postby celtic-red! » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:42 am

first of all scotland got lambasted because it was nothing like how spain play.  Yes spain didnt play with a recognised striker but it was not 4-6-0.  They played with false strikers and were not negative in there approach at all.  It was still more akin to 4-3-3, they just didnt have recognised strikers on the pitch!

Craig Levien setup a scotland side to play 4-6-0 with the most negative football you will ever see.  Had no intention to actually try and score and played for 0-0!  It was a disgrace and levein should have been sacked the next morning.  Anyone who compares that scotland setup to spain's is blind or doesnt understand tactics and formations.  Watch the game and see just how negative that scotland team was!!

I am not talking about barca's success.  I am saying that the philosophy @ the club from 10 years old onwards is 4-3-3.  It doesnt matter if they are successful or not, the club @ all levels will always play this way. 

Brendan is trying to do the same thing @ liverpool.

aCe' » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:33 pm wrote:Im not against the 4-3-3 as a formation for the club going forward. However, the point I was trying to make is that we currently do not seem to have the payer to implement his preferred style of play. People talk about the likes of Barcelona, Arsenal and to a large extent Madrid playing a 4-3-3 but all these sides have quality wide players who make the setup work. What we have at the club atm is a side more adept at playing a more direct style with 2 upfront and less emphasis placed on the wide player. If Rodgers does decide to go ahead with the 4-3-3, then I think we'd be better off investing in quality wide players rather than improving other areas of the squad that (at least on paper) dont seem as thin.

Moving Suarez to the flank for me would be a huge mistake. To begin with, I've never seen him played down the flank for Ajax or Uruguay. All his best work is done when he comes deeper and runs at centerbacks through the middle opening up spaces for players around him. Whether he can adjust to the defensive duties and the tight marking he'll no doubt face down the flank is anyones guess. A big gamble to say the least. It also leaves us with a largely inexperienced and unproven lone striker in Borini should he be picked for the central role. Down the other flank, it's anyone's guess who gets the nod. None of Downing, Bellamy and Cole can be relied on to contribute week in week out as far as I'm concerned.

Yes it is early, but the sooner we sort out our issues the better. Most of the sides around us challenging for those top4 spots have already made significant improvements to their sides despite (potentially) losing key players. If we do indeed end up signing only Allen and Dempsey then I worry for the balance of the side going into next season.


but if Brendan's philosophy is built on 4-3-3 why would he just throw that away to play a more direct 4-4-2.  How can the team play how he wants them to perform if they are playing a system that he doesn't actually want to use.  If he abandons his principles then that's a recipe for disaster.

BR will bring in the right players to get the team playing in the system he believes in.
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Postby stmichael » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:13 pm

i just hope that if we do go 4-3-3 that we play gerrard on the right of the front three. he's absolutely made for that posistion in that formation. am more than happy with lucas, allen and henderson as a central three.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:26 pm

stmichael » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:13 pm wrote:i just hope that if we do go 4-3-3 that we play gerrard on the right of the front three. he's absolutely made for that posistion in that formation. am more than happy with lucas, allen and henderson as a central three.


lucas, allen and henderson would give us a midfield with a lot of athleticism and energy but i think it would lack creativity.
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Postby sgs » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:28 pm

Its not numbers we are lacking in midfield, but variety and quality.

In a 4-3-3, the list below is heavy on the right side of midfield, but poor on the left.

It lacks a Modric type player who links every phase of the game in possession. Aquilani could do it, but his focus is elsewhere...

Even with Allen on board, its still not a balanced squad of midfielders....


RichardLFC1 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:05 am wrote:I think we have the squad for a 4-3-3. Our back 4 pretty much picks it self then you have

To challenge for the middle 3

Gerrard
Henderson
Adam
J.Cole
Aqualani
Spearing
Lucas

To challenge for front 3

Suarez
Borini
Downing
Carroll
Bellamy

Thats without making any more transfers.
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Postby aCe' » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:17 am

Ben Patrick » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:13 am wrote:
aCe' » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:33 pm wrote:Im not against the 4-3-3 as a formation for the club going forward. However, the point I was trying to make is that we currently do not seem to have the payer to implement his preferred style of play. People talk about the likes of Barcelona, Arsenal and to a large extent Madrid playing a 4-3-3 but all these sides have quality wide players who make the setup work. What we have at the club atm is a side more adept at playing a more direct style with 2 upfront and less emphasis placed on the wide player. If Rodgers does decide to go ahead with the 4-3-3, then I think we'd be better off investing in quality wide players rather than improving other areas of the squad that (at least on paper) dont seem as thin.

Moving Suarez to the flank for me would be a huge mistake. To begin with, I've never seen him played down the flank for Ajax or Uruguay. All his best work is done when he comes deeper and runs at centerbacks through the middle opening up spaces for players around him. Whether he can adjust to the defensive duties and the tight marking he'll no doubt face down the flank is anyones guess. A big gamble to say the least. It also leaves us with a largely inexperienced and unproven lone striker in Borini should he be picked for the central role. Down the other flank, it's anyone's guess who gets the nod. None of Downing, Bellamy and Cole can be relied on to contribute week in week out as far as I'm concerned.

Yes it is early, but the sooner we sort out our issues the better. Most of the sides around us challenging for those top4 spots have already made significant improvements to their sides despite (potentially) losing key players. If we do indeed end up signing only Allen and Dempsey then I worry for the balance of the side going into next season.


ace totally disagree about Suarez

This system will be made for him.
It's in a two where he goes drifting around the pitch and leaves us with nobody up there.
He will have the licence to play right or left, not on the wing, more in the spaces between the defence and midfield.

I read this thing about Rodgers coaching methods being modelled on Barca's and being broken down into 8 zones, its a great read and Suarez would be deployed as an inside forward, the same position that Messi and Alexis played for Barca last season.


Thats the thing though, both Messi and Sanchez are wide player who drift inside. Always have been. Messi has only recently started playing a more central role for Barcelona and the same with Sanchez following his transfer. Suarez on the other hand never played as an inside forward cutting from the flank. Not for us, not for jax and not even for Uruguay. I agree that he'd still make a better option down either flank than the likes of Downing, Cole and Bellamy, but why gamble reducing his efficiency when Borini himself is a gamble in the central role.

Outside that, the point I was trying to make which is still missed by most is that we dont have enough quality options to play the 2 inside forwards with 1 upfront. I dont think many would disagree with that assessment. That said, why are we going for the likes of Allen and Dempsey if our budget is so limited ? Why not go for the likes of Cazorla, Hoilet...etc who would give us better options to make the 4-3-3 work ?
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Postby Ben Patrick » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:56 am

I do agree with you totally on the options for the 2 wider players in a 3.

That's why i have previously said that we should be trying to get someone like Adam Johnson in, he would be perfect for me.

While i understand what you are saying about Suarez not playing in that specfic position in the past i think its made for him.

He goes wandering far too much to be the central player in that position and i think in those little pockets he will cause havoc.
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Postby stmichael » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:19 pm

excellent atricle on the 4-3-3 and the specific roles of the two centre backs in that system:

http://www.lfcts.com/understanding-the- ... tre-backs/
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Postby tubby » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:56 pm

I'm loving the new formation and hope he ditches 442 for good. We look more hungry for goals and possession this way.

Stop being so conservative Ace.
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Postby LFC1990 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:22 pm

The 4-3-3 looks very good very quick football. I dont think we really played bad football last year to be honest just couldnt score.

Im looking forward to seeing Stevie in a more advance role though with Lucas and possibly Allen giving protection. With that factor and hopefully Gerrard playing alot more games i can hopefully see our chance conversion getting alot higher.
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