Liverpool FC Forum

[Ciggy]

I tell you what mate, why not support a team with a manager who hasn't got broken English and plays the same team week in and week out?

Perhaps you'll stop moaning then. But then again I doubt it, you'll find something to whinge about no doubt.

Listen Ab I am used to Liverpool winning everything I have witnessed it, teams used to terrifeid to come to Anfield and no one came away with nothing.

The thing is teams dont fear Liverpool anymore and other managers are rubbing their hands together when our best players are not on that team sheet.

We didnt have much money then but do you think Shank, Paisley, Fagan, and when we did have a bit of money Kenny, Houllier, Evans, Souness, Moran  would have rested our best players?

And rotated them like Benitez does in the premiership the hardest trophey to win?

[The_Rock]

I tell you what mate, why not support a team with a manager who hasn't got broken English and plays the same team week in and week out?

Perhaps you'll stop moaning then. But then again I doubt it, you'll find something to whinge about no doubt.

Listen Ab I am used to Liverpool winning everything I have witnessed it, teams used to terrifeid to come to Anfield and no one came away with nothing.

The thing is teams dont fear Liverpool anymore and other managers are rubbing their hands together when our best players are not on that team sheet.

We didnt have much money then but do you think Shank, Paisley, Fagan, and when we did have a bit of money Kenny, Houllier, Evans, Souness, Moran  would have rested our best players?

And rotated them like Benitez does in the premiership the hardest trophey to win?

Didn't I say I luv u .....  

[Ciggy]

Didn't I say I luv u .....  

MWAAAAAAAA feelings mutual Rocky lar     

[Effes]

Im getting annoyed with Rafa - yea he's done great for us winning the Champs League and FA Cup (we were dreadful in both games).

BUT..

It's no secret that the fans want the league - we've got our best squad in years, yet Rafa insists on rotating. Its pi$$ing me off now.

His reasoning for not starting Torres ( that they would sit back ) is treating football like a science. What a stupid idea to not start him.

When we won leagues and cups for fun, it was best 11 and you got dropped if you were
not playing well. Simple.
It means the players give their all each game for fear of being dropped.
I know the game is quicker now and more demanding. But Rafa is going too far.

[66-1112520797]

If we are going to tinker, change the team constantly, rotate, whichever way you look at it I have an urgent suggestion. Infact this would probably apply even if you are in favour of keeping a largely settled fourteen or fifteen players.

Ryan Babel must play up front very soon in a couple of games, either with or preferably without Torres alongside him. Why? because quite simply if, God forbid Torres was to become injured we would be left with a selection of Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin as our front players. None of them are exactly Speedy Gonzales (mind you neither was Gonzales either come to that but I digress) and we'd desperately need somebody who could beat me over fifty yards to play up front.

This is not just rotation it's an insurance policy and makes perfect sense to me. You never know, if in future Torres has had a "long haul" flight from somewhere like Albania and needs to have a rest for bit, then Babel could kind of stand-in up front and we wouldn't have to completely change the way we play      We might even consider trying it sooner rather than later, in a game at Home maybe, agaisnt one of the lesser lights. I know, lets try it against Birmingham.

Micky advocates rotation shock. Ryan Babel, lets play him up front against Birmingham. The foolishnes of youth, that's where he reckons he plays anyhow but what would he know.

After that performance against Brum yesterday, there is no way the two words 'sensible' & 'tinkering' should be used. Would it be called sensible leaving Torres out and playing Voronin instead, or just tinkering, I think its more like uneeded tinkering myself.

We played a settled team more or less and still couldnt win, we'd have probably lost with some "sensible tinkering".

[The Grudge]

Good call. In fact, it's possible that we'll see this happen anyway in one of the cups. I'd love to see Babel and Torres up front. Loads of pace, and a good eye for a strike at goal. That would frighten any defence.

Yep after today im sure defences are shitting bricks!

[Ciggy]

Rotation so far...............

The opening game v Villa
6 changes for Toulouse.
then
6 changes for Chelsea
then
4 changes for Sunderland
then
7 changes for Toulouse (home)
then
5 changes for Derby
then
5 changes for Portsmouth
then
6 changes for Porto
then
3 changes for Birmingham.

[bigmick]

Rotation so far...............

The opening game v Villa
6 changes for Toulouse.
then
6 changes for Chelsea
then
4 changes for Sunderland
then
7 changes for Toulouse (home)
then
5 changes for Derby
then
5 changes for Portsmouth
then
6 changes for Porto
then
3 changes for Birmingham.

Well I put in a request Lynds on the other thread for those stats and they do make quite frightening reading. Obviously the six from Villa to Toulouse and then back to Chelsea were the same six so it looks a bit worse than it probably is but even so.

The two observations I would make are that a little like in the Charity Shield last season where a rotated team played well and beat Chelsea, we are in danger of allowing a good performance from a rotated team Away at Sunderland to be to the detriment of our season. I don't count Derby to be honest because they are absolutely awful, but Sunderland Away was the start of the demise, (as I recall Gerrard was an enforced change, we switched Babel with Riise and I can't recall the other two). From that point on, from the kind words of Keane in the aftermath of the game we've got a bit silly with the whole notion.

As I've said in the other thread, we are now in the process of reverting back to a very similar line-up to the one which began the season. That's Rafa's normal pattern, disrupt the whole rhythm of the team with mass rotation before getting sensible when we need some points and it really really obviously isn't working. Fortunately, this season we're not already out of it so hopefully we can regain some momentum (and it'll take at least a couple of weeks mark my words) before we have to start concentrating on the cups.

The other observation would be, if somebody put those figures to you before the season started and asked you how you would expect us, or any other team for that matter to perform, what would you have predicted? You might have guessed that the team in question would lack a bit of fluency, would struggle to reach its potential as the rhythm wasn't evident in their play. They might struggle for form you might guess. Well, either you'd be a phsycic or football hasn't changed out of all recognition over the last three seasons, one of the two.

[Ciggy]

The thing is though Mick Rafa is being very stubborn and not budging on this one, the team lost all its fluency at Portsmouth.

We have wasted 6 points we cant get them 6 points back, resting, rotating what ever he wants to call it is destroying this team its killing them.

We need a settled side in the prem our best 11, what happens when he is resting Torres in games where we need him, say he gets injured on International duty then resting him whilst losing vital points is really pathetic.

6 games in Rafa says some players are tired WTF, Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal all won the league with a settled side.
All three of them get to the CL semi's, Arsenal the final whilst still challenging for the prem with the same players week in week out.

Whats the point resting players for them to be a bit fitter in say March when resting them is losing us points that we will be out the title race by March if this carries on any longer.

Make changes for injuries and when we are winning in the 70th minute, make changes for the CC or FA Cup, but I wish he would stop it in the premiership.
I dont care about tuesday I hope we get beat.

We have a team to win the prem now that can win the title but theres one obsticle from stopping us in doing so the blame lies at one mans feet and it Mr Benitez's.

[Wilhelmsson]

I understand your frustrations, Ciggy, but it’s impossible for the same set of players to play nine months of football without suffering from fatigue, suspensions and injuries. I’m split between rotation, I like it providing it’s used sensibly, but the definition of sensibly is quite broad.

Fortunately or unfortunately (as the case maybe) most teams will rotate more often than not, the difference between Rafa’s rotational policies and say that of Ferguson’s and Wenger’s is that his (Benitez’s) counterparts will often rotate at home against minor opposition.

Last week when Sky Sports announced the team selection at Portsmouth, I wasn’t impressed because IMO Babel, Torres and Gerrard should have played, when a team is visiting Fratton Park, the team should expect to face a stern test and that happened to the team and the team were fortunate to come away with the point. Portsmouth are no push over’s despite having an indifferent start to the season, so Benitez’s choice of personnel angered me. 

This weekend, the team selection (excluding Torres) was a competent side, more than capable of beating Birmingham, this did not go to plan and Benitez has come under unnecessary criticism. Another point, I’d like to make is what makes you feel that with Torres starting, the result would have been different? It’s just a prediction isn’t it? The buck this week stops with the players IMO.

I accept the point about resting player’s six games into the season and I have said it before, if Rafa is resting players so early because of fatigue then Benitez needs to re-think his training regime. I get the impression (and I’ll say it again) that Benitez rotates his personnel according to the opposition. This is not necessarily a wrong decision, but I ask myself, if Benitez concentrates more on the opposition’s strengths and weaknesses than his own team’s strengths and weaknesses.

If you watch Arsenal, MU and Chelsea play, they play to their strengths, when I watch Liverpool play, it’s like watching a chess match. Benitez trying to outwit the opposition and that’s fine against superior sides but against Birmingham? Teams should have to shape their team around Liverpool and not the other way around IMO.

I also support the notion that the best players should be taken off when the team is winning and has the points locked in, but sadly Benitez does not feel this way and will continue to go about his business, with little regard to how you and I feel about it.

[LittleHobo]

i like rafa, hes a very likable guy BUT if he wins nothing this year and we dont come within 10 points of the title he must go.

4th year.......if no progression in the league happens i would like to see him go........with the money spent he should at least challenge this year compared to the competition.....man utd (looking average) chelsea (in an odd period) arsenal are loooking good but i dont think their squad can cope with too many injuries

there has never been an easier chance for us to win the title

[JohnBull]

Big Mick's opening to this thread is excellent and I agree that Babel must be used in positions where his strengths are best used. The same point can be used for most of the new signings and thereby hangs the problem.
I know enough prem players to realise that most of them will never be rocket scientists and that they are best given jobs requiring a minimum of thought. The best players I've seen have all been instinctive players.
Rush, Fowler, Owen, even Dalgleish never thought "I'll put the ball in that corner" they just did it. Hansen/Lawro/Carra  are not going through a mental check list before taking a position to make a tackle.

The rotation that we are employing at the moment means that the whole system changes game to game because the changes are TOO drastic and the incoming players are just not up to replacing the outgoing ones in what was a winning format.

The greatest habit you can have in football is winning and if by luck or by good judgement you hit upon a winning system then you MUST stick with it.

Then when a player is injured/suspended/knackered the squad should be able to replace like with like. That's how Shanks and Paisley did it and that's how Fergie and Jose have done it. When they've tried to be too clever they've messed up as well.

To go back to Big Micks point. It is obvious that Babel needs space to run on to. He's got the speed and skill to cause trouble to anyone. Same with Torres so there we've got a "like with like" rotation IF the system plays to their strengths and makes the opposition defence play higher up the pitch. The similarities in the squad are there to see Alonso/Mascareno/Siss,   Carra/Aggers/Sammi etc etc. The system must stay the same and the players must know their jobs.

At times in the last three games it has looked like a team of strangers playing with each other and we are starting to lose touch with the leaders already. This season is without doubt the BEST chance we've had to win the Premiership and if the TINKERING (that's what it is !) continues the we will blow it.

I was made up when Raffa came here and I remember postings on this site from Spanish lads saying that Raffa was known to read their sites and to listen to the critics amongst the supporters and to react to their points. He is now displaying a stubborness which is worrying. We should not have lost Packo, we should not be dropping points like yesterday. The rotations must have a logic behind them or they are pointless. I keep feeling that there are changes being made for changes sake. It will not work.

[AB's Red Army]

Sensible post but I don't agree with the last part of that post. I don't believe that Benitez makes changes for the sake of making changes.

I've mentioned this before. None of us are coaches,managers or experts, and therefore you can not sit here and tell me that any manager rotates for the sake of doing. There are reasons behind them.

Just because we don't know the ins and outs, does not mean that Benitez wakes up in the morning and says ''Well feck me, I'll rotate the team just for the sake of it''.

His decisions are made from every single detail from all aspects of fitness in matches and in training sessions. I remember seeing a video of Benitez working with a huge computer analytical machine displaying everything you could possibly know about a players physical condition.

He did explain to why Torres did not start. His explanation was that he knew that Birmingham were going to sit deep and defend. And Torres is a type of player that is best when he gets behind defenders. He asked a question in his interview, saying ''How many times did Torres get behind Birmingham when he came on''? None was his response.

He picked Voronin and Kuyt because [these are his words summarized] they work well in between the lines.

I don't know the tactics set out against Birmingham, but as any other manager, all you can do is give them to the team. The team itself has to execute those tactics.

Benitez as all of us make mistakes, but to solely criticize Benitez alone for lack of execution on the pitch is imo ludicrous.

Our players have not played well enough to win games in the last three games. Rotation or no rotation. We won games with rotation before.

We put the strongest team back to back and failed to win our games.

People need to get a bit of perspective, and look at the table now and the table last year,the year before,etc... and compare   where we are and were in those periods.

And the booing was a disgrace. We've lost games badly and never got booed and to do it in lesser conditions is a fecking disgrace.

[redtrader74]

Good post AB. Its funny we draw a game and stats about rotation come up, as though rotation was the reason for the dropped points, because its that simple! There are many reasons why we dropped the points, but as soon as that happens the lazy excuse of rotation is churned out.

I am just wondering how many people were complaining about all the rotation before the Portsmouth game? It happened to the same extent and reading the posts then, we were about to hang out the bunting and polish the open top bus.

[AB's Red Army]

Good post AB. Its funny we draw a game and stats about rotation come up, as though rotation was the reason for the dropped points, because its that simple! There are many reasons why we dropped the points, but as soon as that happens the lazy excuse of rotation is churned out.

I am just wondering how many people were complaining about all the rotation before the Portsmouth game? It happened to the same extent and reading the posts then, we were about to hang out the bunting and polish the open top bus.

I think the international break was the MAIN reason for our slip in the last three games. I really do.

Now I'm not saying this in order to defend Rafa's rotation policy in any way shape or form, I do believe that certain players should had played instead against Pompey, but I say this because it's occurred before.

It's no secret that we have failed to impress after international breaks. It breaks up the team, as players are off to different parts of the world focused on different things and playing with a whole different team. For that week or two weeks, the manager has only a few players to train with. We have over 15 players who go for International duty and when they come back, all they can do before the game is a bit of running.

The rhythm or momentum that a team has before such a break is disrupted. This affects us more than certain other top teams. We often as fans say regarding a certain player ''oh he's a confidence player''. I think the same can be applied to us as a whole team.

I honestly believe that we would had played better with the same line ups against Porsmouth,Porto,Birmingham without the international break.

I really do.

You can look up the statistics regarding how many games we've won after International breaks and I'm willing to bet that it isn't a high percentage.

And after the international break, Benitez has to analyze the player's conditions. He can't play players who have played 2 games for their country,especially with the traveling. He can't have a group of 11 senior players playing in such conditions.

It puts the manager in a difficult position, because he has to think about the future and whether or not playing a player in such conditions could screw up the player for future games.

He believes in his players and he believes that we have a strong enough squad to win games without certain players. In fact we have done that before, but we didn't do it recently and the question of rotation is brought up.

People often say, don't fix it if it ain't broke. Well what we were doing was going fine and Benitez didn't fix it, he did what he did before, but throw in the international break and things are different.