Liverpool FC Forum

[red37]

I've tried to step back a little from the hysteria that usually accompanies the bad results so far this season. trying to sift through all that negativity and utter tripe in search of salient comment is sadly all too arduous a task. let alone counter it critically in an adult fashion. instead preferring to operate a policy of 'Blind Optimism' . or at best, an approach akin to 'cest la vie' regardless of the real facts. after all the sole purpose of being here is to celebrate one of life's only pleasures...why have a 'domestic' when you can go in the front room for that. and most of us on here are like that evidently...although some call themselves 'fans' when failing to embody such authority at all. and their distinction in that is profound....but its as easy to blame countless factors for the 'one-step forward-two steps back' opening third of this season, as it is to find yourself playing devils advocate or going on an internet 'wind-up' for fun... to my mind there are vital and fundamental issues arising from the ineptitude of some of the playing staff at LFC. that shouldn't be discounted, not allowed to be commented on, nor must they be sacrosanct from the criticism of the average 'Genuine supporter' who's life blood is this club. then again, nigh on every week (results notwithstanding) there is two camps to park yourself in...the 'everything's cool man' and the 'sack rafa' camps are out in force even now, as i spend the best part of ninety-minutes typing this 'semi- rant'.  and its in light of that that i felt compelled (partly due to anger, mostly down to incredulity- some are going to say..without sense of perspective id suspect). to finally sticking my own oar in: feel free to debate/critique/flame/correct Anything Ive tried to put across: but don't make this Stats orientated. something is clearly not right with our away form, if not overall. Ive got one or two things to throw in the melting pot if you'll forgive the length of this post:


possession:

for the last couple of seasons (at least)- we've all been crying out for width in the side. genuine pace and guile along with accurate delivery into the forwards....this season we have a couple of these so-called 'wingers' in the squad, (though for want of a better word...they could be described as anything but wide players atm)...what they are doing is either: swinging hopeful balls in way too early. cutting inside, hampering another team mates interpretation of the play in development and then forfeiting any advantage gained by being unable to hold onto the ball in the final third or: it goes backwards/sideways to sami/jc for recycling...then - the bloody things either hoofed up the park with Crouchy in mind and gets intercepted (why on earth make your job even harder?)  Or its simply just squandered somewhere between the edge of the 'D' and the centre circle... what happened to building from the back? as opposed to acting like you have to relinquish possession of the ball as quickly as possible...'Pass and move' is one philosophy..but throwing the momentum away due to careless 'Haste' is unforgivable...

distribution:

Steven Gerrard and/or Xabi Alonso appear to be the only two players with the wherewith-all to create the greater majority of our chances all too often. and in the province of Melwood tomorrow, the inquest will as a result, bear upon their shoulders much of the fallout for their failure in achieving that aim.  but ill counter-argue that, one of them is still attempting the work of two men. and the other is trying his level best to rediscover the art of passing. a skill in which we have been treated to his undoubted consummate mastery of for 2 seasons..while also (get used to it folks) compensating for the lack of Sissoko as a perfect foil for breaking up the play alongside and around his territory. but momo's absence will be another part of the puzzle to decipher over the next months...and that's another conundrum for the boss to solve.

final ball:

the supplying of our 'wide-boys' with the ordnance to penetrate the full-backs space...should be enough for them to create far more opportunities and strikes on goal for others than some of us seem willing enough to accept as reasonable from today's debacle for me; providing the emphasis is on both the quality/quantity of it in the first place. (although much more is required from our own full backs it also needs to be said -and for me a key area for closer scrutiny).  in consideration of that, you eventually arrive at the conclusions thus: A) the 'wing' personnel aren't good enough here or aren't even ready yet to improve/acclimatise to the premierships demands...B) our full-backs aren't capable/savvy enough to augment their attacks in the first place (all round defensive anxiety in getting forward?) or C) too much space is being left open for the opponents to exploit in the middle third, when players are coming out of their own positions to supplement play and their gaps aren't being covered due to tactical/positional lack of awareness of other players. should a team mate need covering, because of a counter-attack etc. were all over the place...and frequently held accountable as a result.

the players:

out of the available options of players that currently operate primarily 'out-wide' ..be it left side or right. it is difficult to name them with any true conviction as to any definite guarantee of success when selected. of course, game by game things alter and necessity occasionally precludes choice. be it due either to matters of fitness/form or of course the consideration of nullifying the opposition. but of the following: with the exception of Harry Kewell:

GONZALEZ AURELIO RIISE GARCIA PENNANT GERRARD ZENDEN

not ONE of them holds a defining berth. one that you can call- their best position. none of them is of such importance that they warrant a starting place in the first eleven (ex. the captain) ...Ok, Pennant and Gonzalez generally would never be asked to aspire to being multi-talented in other areas of the park - but they all remain the cream of our crop on the flanks. however, i find it increasingly beyond comprehension that at a club of such stature as this..there are so few 'regular, established stick-on certainties for selection' there on a weekly basis. nobody seems too have the code to potentially unlocking the problem and tie down his own spot. years ago you were in until you f***ed up-then you were out.. nowadays you are replaced before you've had the chance to show anybody the whites of your eyes.. and we keep floating between a scenario at best of 'square pegs and round holes' to one where the players that are a suitable fit end up compromising the bigger picture by diminishing the full threat they would otherwise offer by 'babysitting' someone else's job..due to them not being good at it. either that or they are then content to stay in second gear all the time due to the attitude that they are probably indispensable to the cause anyway. i mean come on -the relief in the dressing room must have been palpable to some judging by certain performances this season. only down to the lack of funds to be able to do anything about it though....
never mind tired, lame excuses for '60 odd games' etc... these lads are professional footballers at the peak of physical condition -I'm not saying 'every game' at all. but you try and discuss the merits of each, in the positions in which they are played in. and to a man-jack: not one of them could in years to come be recognised by their achievements while playing there...Steve Heighway being one example.  out of a very disaffected group in the list above, only Gerrard and perhaps Garcia, maybe Riise on a good day. are of sufficient quality for the present teams progression in the remainder of this 2006/07 campaign. the rest are merely either making up the squad numbers. or viable alternatives in the minor competitions im sad to say.

the drawing board:

one or two seasons ago we were labelled as a 'tight-compact unit' tough to break down. and many an occurrence of that resilience can be recalled - heck, that 'mentality' ensured our coronation as the 'kings of Europe', not to mention the infamously dubious moniker of 'the Cup comeback kings'...but it seems as though in expanding our general play in order to allow that freedom of width to be incorporated into the current style -somehow this has made the team look a very ordinary/beatable outfit indeed. and a vulnerable one, even where holding a three goal advantage... in my view this has taken the clubs realistic targets for the campaign, more steps backwards than any that were hoped to have been gained by the acquisition of at best, championship material employed under both this football clubs own illustrious heritage/expectations and its managers faith/tutelage from the outset: Quite obvious is the requirement for investment. its a fact in saying its gone way beyond any lingering vain hopes of 'red-tinted' romanticism or sentimentality to argue a decent case to the contrary: certainly there is justifiable cause for drastic improvement in more than one instance on a 'footballing' level, clearly. Radical changes have to be put in place concerning the kind of pi55 poor attitude and lack of application and bollox regarding certain players on more than just matters of selection/rotation/formation or how fed-up they are coming into work today...but equally, a real necessity for a plan B that can realistically work and make up 'some' of the ever-increasing clear water ahead. yes, even the sanctuary of '4th' place and the equivalent of the financial end of the 'rainbows pot' i mean... THAT WORK HAS TO START NOW!  the title wasn't lost today that's for sure. but some of the long held and cherished preconceptions about the ambitions and aspirations of Liverpool Football Club are beginning to be dashed to the rocks of mediocrity week in week out due to the pessimistic approach that certain players are beginning to adopt, the minute things don't go to plan on the pitch. I've never seen such a band of unmerry men wearing a red/yellow shirt. and going about their general business with such a malaise and lacksadaisical disregard (plainly?) for both the people that provide their very (short-lived but profitable) existence at the pinnacle of top level football and all the trappings that includes...but also for the man in the street that pays his hard earned wedge/turns on the TV for the privilege

this is not the Death knell for the season just yet: on the contrary- it should be its emergence from lessons learnt. although preparations for anything other than its lament, inevitably are closer than most of us would feel comfortable in admitting...lets all just hope that come May we have got something to shout about in the end.        YNWA

[account deleted by request]

This is my plan "B" that I had posted in the match thread :-

Having now recovered some perspective after a bloody awful experience I think we need to accept that our away form has not been due to bad luck , rotation, silly mistakes etc but facing the truth that we are getting it wrong tactically. People are saying 4-5-1 is the way we should go, others have been crying out that 4-4-2 would sort all our problems out. IMO although some of these have had a bearing on our results , the main problem has been that we have never defended with 2 banks of 4 as we did last season . I know this doesnt solve the problem that we cant score goals away, but it would give us a basis on which to build. Gonzales and Pennant should be sacrificed in the short term away from home until we get a few good performances under our belts.

Until Kewell and Momo are back or January sales I think we have to accept that Zenden is the best of a bad bunch (unless Aurelio?). Gerrard needs to start playing better, whether it be central midfield or on the wing. Agger deserves to be given a run now, and maybe Warnock LB with Riise LM.

Team for away matches

                      Reina
Finnan   Carra            Agger     Warnock

          Alonso            Zenden(AURELIO)

Gerrard                                 Riise
                 Garcia
               Kuyt

[Chargingthroughthemidfield]

Good God. You can probably tell by my name that I'm not a Liverpool Fan. However, hats off to you mate, that beats the "Spurs are sh*t" stuff we have on the majority of the Arsenal websites.

However, I'm not on here to gloat. I was at the game, sitting behind Andy Gray, so could see the Sky monitors. After the 3rd Goal (hee hee - sorry) Gerrard and Riise had a row, and Riise appeared to end up wearing the captain's armband around his forearm. Gerrard definately did not have it on at the end of the game.

I'd had a few beers, but was sitting next to one of your lot, and he noticed it too.

Did we imagine it?

Also, quote from a certain Sky "expert"

My Liverpool Mate - "Gerrard didn't look happy today"

Sky Expert - "Neither would I if I was stuck on the f*cking right wing".

Hope you don't think I'm taking the p*ss - intersted to know what you lot thought.

[Hebz]

Gerrard wouldn't leave, he was probably p*ssed at the fact he or Riise couldn't save the goal.. but this is interesting. Gerrard wouldn't hand over the captains band for no reason...

[account deleted by request]

Good God. You can probably tell by my name that I'm not a Liverpool Fan. However, hats off to you mate, that beats the "Spurs are sh*t" stuff we have on the majority of the Arsenal websites.

However, I'm not on here to gloat. I was at the game, sitting behind Andy Gray, so could see the Sky monitors. After the 3rd Goal (hee hee - sorry) Gerrard and Riise had a row, and Riise appeared to end up wearing the captain's armband around his forearm. Gerrard definately did not have it on at the end of the game.

I'd had a few beers, but was sitting next to one of your lot, and he noticed it too.

Did we imagine it?

Also, quote from a certain Sky "expert"

My Liverpool Mate - "Gerrard didn't look happy today"

Sky Expert - "Neither would I if I was stuck on the f*cking right wing".

Hope you don't think I'm taking the p*ss - intersted to know what you lot thought.

Yes you imagined it.

[red37]

This is my plan "B" that I had posted in the match thread :-

Having now recovered some perspective after a bloody awful experience I think we need to accept that our away form has not been due to bad luck , rotation, silly mistakes etc but facing the truth that we are getting it wrong tactically. People are saying 4-5-1 is the way we should go, others have been crying out that 4-4-2 would sort all our problems out. IMO although some of these have had a bearing on our results , the main problem has been that we have never defended with 2 banks of 4 as we did last season . I know this doesnt solve the problem that we cant score goals away, but it would give us a basis on which to build. Gonzales and Pennant should be sacrificed in the short term away from home until we get a few good performances under our belts.

Until Kewell and Momo are back or January sales I think we have to accept that Zenden is the best of a bad bunch (unless Aurelio?). Gerrard needs to start playing better, whether it be central midfield or on the wing. Agger deserves to be given a run now, and maybe Warnock LB with Riise LM.

Team for away matches

                      Reina
Finnan   Carra            Agger     Warnock

          Alonso            Zenden(AURELIO)

Gerrard                                 Riise
                 Garcia
               Kuyt

id pretty much echo that Saint. aside from any tactical shortcomings..and regardless of 4-4-2/ 3-5-1/3-5-2 etc..or any of that lot. im not being dissuaded in coming to the conclusion that several of the players asked to implement them are simply, and disturbingly not up to the task...even dare i say, one or two that look as though they couldnt be ar5ed at all. to say nothing of the senior heads, who one minute appear totally at sea with the notion that passing to the nearest Red shirt - is a proven recipe for building success upon. they set the examples supposedly after all...to the next, where long faces and bickering appear to be acceptable...instead the game is littered with ubiquitous 'flicks' and 'misplaced balls' that are wastefully needless. and ambitious 'punts' from defence that serve no other purpose than the opposition getting presented with the ball again. wtf is that all about. release the pressure by gifting the ball back? no wonder there are cracks opening.

the days where we'd build it up from the back patiently, seem a distant recollection at the moment. and that is written on page one of the manual. so little wonder theres so much heavy weather made of the real technical stuff if players cannot find even the simplest of tasks a breeze.

i like the look of that team you've selected. Agger is one that will look for a pass out of defence, even when under pressure he seems to be able to make decisions in identifying the correct ball out.
i think that is vital, along with the support of the full backs in games where possession really is at a premium. Garcia is another who (on his day) can be instrumental in unlocking space as well as defences..when he is in the mood. but lets get back to the simple way of playing football that made this club such a force in the first place. pass and move.

(its hard to maintain a positive and clear perspective when disappointment continually wrecks any real optimism through defeat after turgid defeat, its true). and in the cold light of day many of the words hurriedly cast onto these pages in retribution and bitterness may look out of place....or out of order full stop. but something needs to give. you cant go on pretending it doesnt. the answers im afraid will not come from the mutterings between these pages though... Pride and some hope for restored self-belief in the players, along with a grip on reality will ultimately reveal that from the men who are entrusted to wear the colours. and shouldnt that alone be enough of a kick up the ar5e? the prospect of forfeiting that honour     it bloody well used to be.

[Red Dotty]

We all think we can do a better job or pick a better team so i am going to put my plan b into action although i do have one slight problem Sissoko is injured. But my team would not include Alonso at the moment as i do think he is way of the pace compared to his usual high standard. My team.

Reina
Finnan
Agger
Carra
Riise
Pennant
Gerrard (Yes In The Middle)
Sissoko
Zenden
Crouch
Kuyt

And just let them play. Sissoko would give Stevie the middle of the park and the licence to go and FECK teams up.

Hell this manager lark is a peice of pi ss.

[Kopboyau]

PLAN B

Forget this squad rotation policy. If something aint broke don't fix it. As much as it pains me to say it, Chelsea have a bigger squad of players and yet the core of their system seems to remain the same. Play players in their position. Ie play Gerrard in the middle, not on the bloody right wing. Lets go back to looking at what worked for us last year and try that again. Anything is better than sitting ninth and letting teams defenders score goals as if they were strikers. And for crying out loud play Daniel Agger in the center of defence. If needs be play JC in the holding midfield role along side SG. Play Pennant from the beginning on the right and let him get into the game. If we are going to keep warnock play him at left back and play JAR in midfield. Where has Xabi Alonso gone his completed pass % must be way down compared to last year.

Solutions

I think we need to buy another GK, put some pressure on Reina to keep his position, because lets face it compared to last season he is having a shocker. Get Lucas Neill - class defender and is rotting away at Blackburn. A holding Midfielder - an extra one is always good espically if Momo goes out for long periods of time. Get Michael Owen - he should never have been allowed to go to Newcastle in the first place.

MOST IMPORTANT - DON'T FIX WHAT AINT BROKEN

[The Manhattan Project]

Owen is only 26 so LFC could get him when Newcastle have to sell him for a knock-down price at the end of the season. But he ain't gonna get £120,000 a week at LFC.

Plan B is to concentrate on fourth place, which honestly was our only realistic league target this season. We've played Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal early at their stadiums. No further excuses for away defeats now.

[red37]

We all think we can do a better job or pick a better team so i am going to put my plan b into action although i do have one slight problem Sissoko is injured. But my team would not include Alonso at the moment as i do think he is way of the pace compared to his usual high standard. My team.

Reina
Finnan
Agger
Carra
Riise
Pennant
Gerrard (Yes In The Middle)
Sissoko
Zenden
Crouch
Kuyt

And just let them play. Sissoko would give Stevie the middle of the park and the licence to go and FECK teams up.

Hell this manager lark is a peice of pi ss.

where in this thread does it allude to someone considering themselves capable of doing a better job red? the points ive expressed are just my own observations..(more than likely a load of old bollox, granted) but nonetheless inspired by the depressing sequence of events so far that bring us a third of the way into yet another season full of learning curves and corners to be rounded. the level of despair each of us feels of course can differ, some are 'half-full' others are definitely 'half-empty' and quite possibly this (clearly,alcohol induced thread ive started, by its nature, will throw up out of the woodwork yet more points of debate) result!

but lets get it straight from the off..no one thinks they can do better. lest of all me ffs!  the whole point of spending so long  'getting whatever it is off my chest'  was indeed to provoke some reaction and sensible discussion. and standing by my own words as is the right of being a supporter, allows me to call my spades whichever way i choose. nothing ive commented on is derogatory or factually wrong. at least do me the courtesy of recognising that fact even if it is hidden beneath a long-winded pile of cack.

as for dropping Xabi Alonso as well as conceding the fact you are aware Sissoko will not appear this side of Christmas/New year- yet choose to include him in your team, does infact render 'almost' everything you have claimed up until, including after that point, equally as debatable?  such as- any old fool can see the predicament Rafa Benitez finds himself in, let me tell you that is far from being 'easy' or a 'piece of p.iss!' even i know better than that.

but hey, lets all get a grip of reality eh...no offence intended.

[Lando_Griffin]

Anyone who thinks Owen would solve our problems is drunk. Time for bed, you alchy's.

[red37]

Anyone who thinks Owen would solve our problems is drunk. Time for bed, you alchy's.

a rumour thats substantiated by those fine, upstanding paragons of virtue known as the NOTW no less. i understand they go about the land masquerading as a newspaper ...clearly one that holds the attention of a few too many of our 'supporters' it would appear for my liking.

anyway thanks for your input Lando 

[Lando_Griffin]

Anyone who thinks Owen would solve our problems is drunk. Time for bed, you alchy's.

a rumour thats substantiated by those fine, upstanding paragons of virtue known as the NOTW no less. i understand they go about the land masquerading as a newspaper ...clearly one that holds the attention of a few too many of our 'supporters' it would appear for my liking.

anyway thanks for your input Lando 

Always glad to be of service, mate.

[A.B.]

Well everyone seems to know football better than Benitez, so go on ahead and send him a letter. Give some pointers  to the man who has won seven titles in his career in five or six years.

[red37]

Well everyone seems to know football better than Benitez, so go on ahead and send him a letter. Give some pointers  to the man who has won seven titles in his career in five or six years.

again and for the second time- where in this thread does it allude to anything remotely considered to be precluding Benitez and his MO. because im sure, had you read it through you would arrive at no other conclusion than basically the one that reiterates my own impressions/points of view (im in a forum for LFC arent i?) based wholly on observations that ive taken the time to offer up for discussion with like-minded reds such as yourself. or that was the plan. like ive told the other poster who spoke of 'knowing better'. nothing could be further from the truth where im concerned. and let me tell you this, if you hover around long enough to digest the argument ive countered you with...i might have wasted the better part of my evening writing a complete load of garbage there. but better that, than the lame effort, you yourself have just thrown in.

i thought much more highly of you A.B than that. maybe you have nothing of substance to add to the debate. i hope you prove me wrong.