Liverpool FC Forum

[Kopboyau]

Anyone who thinks Owen would solve our problems is drunk. Time for bed, you alchy's.

Certainly would have to do better than the offerings at he moment

Goals For

Man United - 27 (14 away)
Chelsea - 22 (9 Away)
Arsenal - 19 (7 away)
Aston Villa - 15 (5 away)
Bolton 12 (7 Away)
Portsmouth 17 (7 Away)
Everton 16 (6 Away)
Wigan 16 (6 Away)
Liverpool 14 (1 away)

Equal lowest with Sheffield United - on away Goals
Sorry but thats . Bellamy proven Goal Scorer HA HA HA

Kuyt is at least running into form. Crouch well he might want to bring some of his England form to the EPL

[A.B.]

Well everyone seems to know football better than Benitez, so go on ahead and send him a letter. Give some pointers  to the man who has won seven titles in his career in five or six years.

again and for the second time- where in this thread does it allude to anything remotely considered to be precluding Benitez and his MO. because im sure, had you read it through you would arrive at no other conclusion than basically the one that reiterates my own impressions/points of view (im in a forum for LFC arent i?) based wholly on observations that ive taken the time to offer up for discussion with like-minded reds such as yourself. or that was the plan. like ive told the other poster who spoke of 'knowing better'. nothing could be further from the truth where im concerned. and let me tell you this, if you hover around long enough to digest the argument ive countered you with...i might have wasted the better part of my evening writing a complete load of garbage there. but better that, than the lame effort, you yourself have just thrown in.

i thought much more highly of you A.B than that. maybe you have nothing of substance to add to the debate. i hope you prove me wrong.

Your suggestion to scoring more goals and winning matches is playing Zenden in the middle alongside Alonso, and playing with one striker with Garcia as the link up striker?

We're better off playing a senior citizen in the middle of the park then Zenden. Garcia, as much as I love what he brings to the table, doesn't perform away from home. At home he should start every match but not away from home.

There's no formation or tactic that will allow our players to get some bottle, grow some balls, grow some spine and gain a tough mentality all together. That's whats missing. We're losing without a fight. We threw in the towel against Arsenal at 1-0 down. What happened to that Istanbul spirit?

It seems that if we don't score first we don't win and our players don't believe that we can.

[DonnieDarko]

I think the Warnock/Riise combo at Right back and right mid might be the way to go. As for either going with Zenden in the centre of midfield or Pennant on the right I really do not know. It is like trying to choose between anthrax and cianide.

We have way too many new players who need time (especially aurelio and gonzo) to fit into the team who are playing regularly.

[red37]

believe me mate, zenden is rarely in my thoughts in any permutation...and apart from a nod towards Saints post regarding his team selection for away games during Sissoko's absence. the only occasion so far this season that has (and i made public the fact) made me think any more of him than he deserves, was in the cup game last week. i held up my hand there in applauding his contribution. where usually my stance is one that stops slightly short of all out condemnation of his efforts. it still remains in my mind that the fella is anything but Liverpool standard. despite making a reasonable improvement of some note recently.

Garcia i would persevere with. infact id deploy him on the left of midfield personally, rather than the hole, either or. he has of course worked the lines down the right. but again, that assumption arises from the dearth of any capability currently being displayed by those who have it within their lockers to be of any use at all as a provider of ammunition from the flanks. as ive commented on in the original thread. he can unlock defences and he does chip in with his fair share of crucial goals. and as ive said, he along with Gerrard. occasionally Riise, again solely down to his goal threat.
are perhaps the likelier of our attack-minded players who have demonstrated their influence on several occasions. Pennant,Gonzalez,Aurelio in that respect are to be found sadly wanting.

the whole essence of the thread is to discuss the merits of returning to a simple, effective pass and move style of play. as opposed to this seemingly 'all over the shop' collection of parts that do little to make up the sum of any whole, let alone a successful, winning team...and todays game and the level of performance highlighted those points home to me with interest. it certainly feels like this club is light years away from achieving its aim at the moment. and as ive conceded, iam the last person in the world id trust with any effective suggestions as to lifting this 'cloud of mediocrity' we are stumbling through. that isnt though for the want of trying to offer an alternative or at least, a personal opinion. we are all entitled to that. and id be the first to acknowledge something ive said thats out of place. but thankyou for replying. 

[account deleted by request]

I finally got around to reading all your original post red37, and after losing the will to live a couple of times due to its length   I have to admit you make some very good points. My problem is that while I agree with your observations, I cant understand why a team that fought hard for most of last season should suddenly become a team who's head drops when they conceed a goal away.

I remember in 1970 we played Sheff Wednesday at home and we got hammered, totally outclassed but the players threw themselves in front of shots, tackled like demons and fought for every ball, and somehow we prevented them from scoring. It was without doubt the most one sided first half I have ever seen at Anfield. We eventually won 3 -0 because in the end Sheff W JUST GAVE UP! We had a terrible team back in 1970 but they didnt know how to give up, the great players of the sixties had gone or where no longer the force they had been,and the young players just wernt good enough but they all knew how to fight. Roy Evans, Livermore,Alun Evans, Graham never quite made the grade at Liverpool but they certainly never let their heads drop either.

What I'm trying to say is, what has ripped the heart and fighting spirit out of us this season?

[red37]

What I'm trying to say is, what has ripped the heart and fighting spirit out of us this season?

complacency, over-expectation from both the players themselves as well as fools like us: (Chelsea in the Community shield for example) the demands of a world cup almost directly prior to a pre-season that looking back had an ominous portent about its outcome since.  the lack of any substantial worth gained from deploying the players that were used during that period were the wrong ones for me. and by the skin of our teeth we managed to hold it all together against Haifa.  of course, some of the 'big' guns had yet to recouperate- so what better opportunity to bed in a few rookies. well for me, id sooner have seen some momentum built up before wasting the opportunity to gain 'match' fitness by using fringe players with the view that later on in the season there will come a time when legs need to be fresh. thats a no-brainer. but get some points up on the board first.. yes they must be encouraged of course. but not by compromising the first team. having said that, this squad is far from being a premiership winning outfit in the first place for my money, sad but fact. then there have been key injuries in defence/midfield etc.. players struggling to adapt. personal problems translating their effects on to the pitch. the list of excuses/possible reasons goes on. ultimately the truth behind your question may well never be revealed, if there is any identifiable one at all. and besides which there are things which we will never be privvy to behind the scenes..in matters of players private lives im not comfortable with reading all about their troubles anyway, so long as they fight tooth and nail for the club while on the pitch thats all i want and that clearly isnt the case for a few of them.

the certainty is - some damage has been done by the accumulation of the factors above. there remains however some mystery as to a solution this far in, short of ripping up the script and accepting the fact that it is going to take even longer for any of us to reap any comfort in doing so. and is that the answer anyway...see, more questions.

i would though also suggest that Rafa Benitez may not be the worlds best at 'mollycoddling' or 'pandering' to grown men who are paid vast sums to carry out his orders week in week out should they fail to take on board his ideas. maybe where he falls short in offering a little praise or encouragement here and there is more than compensated for however in his own 'inbuilt' desire and hunger for success that ultimately we are all banking on in having a cumulative and eventual positive outcome for the good of this club. perhaps one or two noses are put out of joint in that regard. and therein lies another facet to it all - Respect. or the notion that certain players deem themselves superior to that philosophy..i think thats stretching the point tbf but who knows that for definate? players will always come and go. Rafa himself isnt immune to deciding enough is enough and who could blame him after the lessons of Valencia (where still the axe is poised precariously over Flores' head ready for his next error of judgement) and how we'd all miss Rafa should the day come. lets face it, the media continue to do a good job of persuading him (and some of us)  that he is doing very little right at all..let alone should he take notice of the dissenting voices and decide to 'do one' the man has performed miracles for Liverpool. it would be a travesty.

but it has to be said that from the final whistle in Cardiff last May to the opening stanza of this season and the Community shield triumph over Mourinho's star-spangled prima donnas.. between the two cup wins.. what the hell else can it be other than a combination of the above. there is only one man who could truly tell you the answers. and he will be busy resurrecting some modicom of dignity out of the whole sorry state of affairs, hopefully with the full co-operation of his charges sometime in the very near future.

[Bad Bob]

There are plenty of unknowns regarding the current state of the team and, like after the defeat at Old Trafford last month, everything seems just a little bit dire at the moment.  In reality, things aren't quite as bad as they seem.  Losing to Arsenal the way we did yesterday is never going to feel good...much as defeat to the Mancs really rankled.  But, the team responded in the right way after that last debacle and I have confidence they will do again.  Having said that, there are things that need sorting...

The defense for one.  The same back five that brought so much success last season has had a collective dip in form this season and we have started leaking silly goals.  As St. Mike noted in another thread, we seem to be playing very deep of late and our usually air-tight offside trap hasn't been clicking (the Fabregas run yesterday was the kind of ball the back line used to anticipate and step up on).  I would also agree with Red37 that the distribution out of defense has been a major disappointment on the road this season and more patience is needed: hit and hope is not going to cut it against top sides.  These players are experienced professionals, however, and gritty performers: I have confidence they'll get it right as a unit soon.  Bottom line, there's been a dip in form but I still trust our defenders (including Agger, when he plays).

The greater worry is the midfield, where it's all gone pear-shaped.  The loss of Sissoko is a huge blow, as he does a job that neither Xabi or Zenden can do and that we would prefer Stevie not do: breaking up opposition play.  We need to find ways of coping in his absence, which may mean a fairly significant tactical rethink in the centre of the park.  For me, though, a Zenden/Alonso pairing is not the answer because neither get forward enough to support the strikers.  That's not a major liability when Stevie and Garcia are on song on the flanks but, in games like yesterday's where we struggle to get good balls to the wide players, we really miss that driving force in the centre of the park.  For the foreseeable, I would move Stevie back to the middle to ensure that he gets more possession and can drive into the opponent's half. 

This means Pennant on the right, which I know some bristle at.  For me, though, he's not been terrible.  Indeed, I thought he posed more of a threat down the right than did Gerrard yesterday.  The lad needs confidence, though, and a run of games will help.  More concerning is the left flank because Gonzales still looks out of his depth against any RB with a bit of pace (like Eboue).  Zenden is an option if the game calls for a "steady hand" but we want more than that.  As such, I'd go for Garcia.  What he lacks in defensive acumen he makes up for in creativity.  When he's not on the pitch we seem to lack creativity against well-organized defenses.  So, stick him at LM with the proviso that he MUST help Riise out defensively.  I think that midfield quartet has the best chance of compensating for the loss of Sissoko and for creating something going forward.

Up top, there isn't an awful lot wrong, in my opinion.  All four of our strikers are capable of putting the ball in the net and they all work hard for the team.  With MUCH better service from the midfield--particularly from the flanks in Crouch's case--they'll score us the goals.

So, in sum, the team needs some minor adjustments in personnel and tactics and a major attitude adjustment on the road: we need to stiffen up defensively, battle in the midfield and create chances for the strikers to put away.  Working hard, scoring first and keeping clean sheets--the stuff we did so well last season--will right this ship.  Walk on.

[tel]

We match up well with any team, we lose concentration for a second and go behind. Game over. Happened this week, against Mancs, Bolton.....

We need go all out to score a goal in the first 10 minutes. Crouch lacks mobility, lacks aggression, lacks power, lacks finishing. Takes him a whole half before he gets into the game's rhythm. I'd be interested to compare how many goals he scores in the first 45 minutes VS the second half over his career. I reckon most come after he eats his oranges. Look how much ground Kuyt covers compared to Crouch. Amazing workrate and hunger.

Put Fowler in and play Stevie in the centre and give the order for all out thermonuclear attack in the first 10 minutes. Put the f**^ng opponents on the back foot from the get go.

[red37]

i agree, of course, that starting games off in the manner in which you intend to control them, is of vital importance in accumulating momentum, both in the match and as a cumulative effect towards subsequent confidence. how many times when watching Liverpool at Anfield do you find yourself saying these words: "right-Kop end second half, lets annihilate them"  but there is equal scope for suggesting that the possession of the ball in the first place is rudimentary to any efficient use of it, in being able to assert any authority over sides whatsoever. be it a measured, assured approach or the direct, in your face up and at 'em philosophy.

in other words to be able to as you put it  "go all out and score a goal in the first 10 minutes"  you have to understand that can translate itself into one of two scenarios given the poor level of esteem ravaging morale at present:  A) vulnerability from the counter-attack when possession is squandered (a distinct probability given this all too prevalent fad of players imagining they are dealing with a 'hot potato')

and B) players trying too hard to impose themselves that they end up forgetting the basics (shouldn't happen-but it is doing) though firing out of the starting blocks doesn't purport itself to be a problem at Anfield. indeed nothing appears amiss on the face of it at all to suggest we are a team bereft of belief and spirit, should the tale of the tape be studied regarding our home form. that isn't the issue. what needs addressing is the manner in which our Away fixtures are prepared for. usually a case of: the over-respect and therefore handing of a psychological initiative over to the opponent  and for me that will preclude just about any measure of 'pressure' you intend to exert on the opposition. regardless of whether you are one-nil up or sharing parity due in part to them smelling your 'fear' and preying on that major weakness. what happens is they switch the tables and play 'compact' patient keep-ball until the head of steam you advocate 'bullying' them with runs dry...and it will. no side can maintain that level of direct bombardment for a sustained period without trading in a deficit somewhere later in the match.

all very well taking the initiative and pummelling the likes of clubs struggling further down the Prem or the lower league teams in the cups etc.. dominating possession against those sides is usually made possible because they too have fallen into the trap of affording their opponent too much respect.

where we are falling down is in the insistence of Rafa pointing this out all too often to our lads when we come up against top flight sides on the road and probably labouring the fact to death. in a way it stifles/regiments them in putting as much pressure on their own stock and what they are detailed to do in their own game from the outset. there becomes far too much emphasis on paranoia and the unwillingness to 'believe' they are good enough. particularly when things 'do' go t1ts up.. down to the fact that some of them are probably too scared to make mistakes.. (that is exactly what they end up doing) in fear of their place in the team. so nobody emerges with any merit.

one thing we certainly do not possess as a direct influence of that is any room for 'creative expression' 'fluidity' nor 'goal threat' away from Anfield. for me though the key is in playing this game exactly in the way it should be done. home or away. with the steady patient passing game our club is famous for. and once you do that: you'll find the momentum will start to allow the players the freedom to indeed grab games by the scruff of the neck. look at last seasons two superb unbeaten runs.

[108-1163930576]

kick ball into net=goal.....easy

[red37]

kick ball into net=goal.....easy

no need to bump old threads m8.