Should rafa go if he fails to win the league

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Should rafa go if he fails to win the league

Yes
49
40%
No
74
60%
 
Total votes : 123

Postby dawson99 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:13 pm

Raffmaker wrote:You all take yourselves far too seiously, digging out all of this history, transfers in- transfers out, league tables, Rafa's previous record.

None of it matters, and no one cares. Using the past as a measuring stick for the future is a dangerous game.

Also, say we don't win the league this season, what will happen next season, season after and season after?

Exact same scenrario, :censored:, Chelsea, and Man ure will all be just as strong or stronger, Man City have won the jackpot. All of these clubs have got not only the cream of the Europe crop in their teams, they have also got the cream of the Europe youngsters in their academys, for at least the next five seasons we will struggle to challenge for the league, unless we strive to bring better quality in throughout.

Its so simple like 1+1=2.

It goes   Money + Quality = Title.

Man city? robinho has gone walkabout, they are close to relegation, no one apart from Bellamy will sign and that's no biggy.
Money does not = success. Look at Real Madrid recently. Look at what Spurs have paid out!
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Postby Madmax » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:59 pm

Its all about quality over quantity. Money does not always bring success. You could gain quality player through the youth system. Thats if they are good enough and the mangers notices thier potential and gives them a chance. Gerrard and carra are home grown players. Without them i dont think we would have got this far. Arsenal are bringing up good players through the youth system aswel players like Gavin Hoyte , aaron ramsey are great future talent. Wenger has got great judgment with youth players. His brought some fantistic players the young foreign lads are not bad either and look promising vela, merida, djourou,song, fiabianski..
IMO i think wenger is a brilliant judge of talent. He buys quality young stars. Pennant was shyte with arsenal, if he had bags of talent i think wenger would'nt have let him go. Dont know why we brought him then.
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:13 pm

Good post Bob (The one analysing our transfers) which I think is a fair assessment. The only thing which I think could have been added is how Rafa has failed to address the problem positions in the team even when buying so many players.

When he came to Liverpool he said that he wanted to address the problem of our right hand side. That we needed a full back and a Right Winger. After a couple of tries at bringing in a full back, he decided to stick with what we already had ...... Finnan. On the right wing He brought in Nunez, Garcia, Pennant,  Benayoun....... with really only Gerrard looking the part when played on the right.


Similarly on the left hand side numerous players brought in with only Riera looking like being any sort of answer.

As for strikers it seems more like musical chairs than building for the future with the notable exception of Torres. 

I don't go along with the belief that "he got his money back when he sold him" , or "he didn't lose much" etc etc. What he did lose is not money so much as time, time integrating a player into the squad, time while the player settled , time when we lost or drew games that we might have won with a better buy.

As we are seeing now players don't always fit straight in to the system, so its vital that the right players are bought.

As for Rafa, I have always said the end of the season is the right time to assess whether to give him a new contract. If we maintain our challenge I would give him a contract, but if we fall away and don't win a trophy, it may be time to reassess his position.
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Postby Madmax » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:20 pm

Its a shame we have not bought quality for the wings. Nunez,garci,pennant,benny arnt really class to fit in the wings. I think its a problem we will always have unless it is given emphasis. Agree with whay you stated at the end, position should be in question if our situation in the league become dire. But if we maintain it then give him a contract. Sort out the right wing pos aswel FFS
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Postby NANNY RED » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:26 pm

Cant remember if i voted on this like as the older you get your memory goes dont it Saint,
Anyway Raffa stays that is it
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:38 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Cant remember if i voted on this like as the older you get your memory goes dont it Saint,
Anyway Raffa stays that is it

A serious question Nanny. How bad a season would we have to have before you changed your mind about Rafa? Or would it take more than just this season and what has gone before?

ps speak for yourself .... I am in my prime ..... I forgot all about voting    :D
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Postby NANNY RED » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:12 pm

s@int wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Cant remember if i voted on this like as the older you get your memory goes dont it Saint,
Anyway Raffa stays that is it

A serious question Nanny. How bad a season would we have to have before you changed your mind about Rafa? Or would it take more than just this season and what has gone before?

ps speak for yourself .... I am in my prime ..... I forgot all about voting    :D

I cant see me changing my mind Saint because i genuinly believe he is the best man for the job. Im not living on the Istanbul thingy im to old in the ar,se for that, yes he does send me mad sometimes with team selction an subs but as ive learnt over the years, im just the supporter,

ive never Questioned any manager at Liverpool. Well no i have im telling lies Souness, But when have we ever got rid of a manager for us not winning the league just the league,. Of course im as desperate as anyone to win the league ive waited :censored: years for it but with a stable club behind the scenes an a nice transfer kitty surly you have got to give him longer, Ok ill meet you half way if we started playing football like we did under Souness then i think me vocals wanting Rafa to go would come in to play.

But at the mo no i want him as the boss because i genuinly dont think theres anyone better , but thats just my opinion
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Postby bigmick » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:08 pm

Some interesting thoughts coming out and a good debate this. I would say that when you look at Bob's breakdown of the transfers, (which is fair enough and unarguable with) Rafa looks better than he does under my analysis of earlier. In the main, the ins and outs appear to beleaning heavier onto the positive side of the ledger.

My concern though and I've said this before, is the extent of the progression and the speed with which it's happening. Now I know rafa took over a team which needed some serious rebuilding, but it's fair to say that we could conciveably have fielded a back four that he was left with (Finnan, Carragher, Hyppia and Risse) up to and including the middle of last season. That's four years on from when he took over, which in hindsight was a decent legacy. Most managers would consider that a gift, which if utilised effectively would enable them to strengthen other areas of the team. When you add in that we have also retained the services of arguably one of the best players in the World who is in the Prime of his career, as well as spending 150-200 million quid, then I think it's reasonable to expect the team to improve.

And improve it has, but prior to this season our finishing position and proximity to the league Champions has hardly moved at all. That tells me that quite simply either we haven't improved by as much as we ought to reasonably expect (definately in my opinion) or that the other teams have improved as well (probably in some cases, not in others). This season as opposed to last season for instance, our first team if everybody has fit has improved to the extent that we've repaced Babel with Riera at left midfield. Leaving aside that this massive stride cost us 40 million quid, I have to ask is it sufficient to realistically expect to pull in the other big clubs?

Now I know that some still maintain that the big four are just as strong as they ever have been, and that this one player replacement accounts for us improving to within a point of the top as opposed to being completely out of it as we normally are. They would maintain I guess that this massive improvement (the addition of Riera) has more than compensated for our star striker being injured for 2/3 of the matches. Similarly, I guess they would say that James Milner's transfer to Aston Villa in the Summer has made them 15 points better than they could reasonably expect to be, and that would explain them being within four points of the top of the table at the end of January.

I don't buy that though, and I think our improvement from last season to this has been marginal. We just happen to be in a period where the other big four teams have been in a transitionary mode which has catapulted the likes of us and Villa up there. If we win it, it makes no odds we are Champions (please read that bit twice before going off on one and spoiling the debate by the way) but if we don't....

When people say "and we haven't even hit form yet" they omit to add that nobody else has yet either. Man Utd are just showing the signs of waking up, and already we are shipping water. Already there is looking like the distinct danger that it could all end in tears very quickly. I tell you this though, should the Mancs win it they will be looking towards next season and aiming to not fall out of the blocks like they did this. Chelsea will be looking for a more cohenrent campaign and spending some money, while Arsenal's young team will be a year older and wiser. This really could be our best chance for a generation of winning it, we may never get a better one.


The other thing which greatly worries me is the planning, as I touched on earlier. Had keane for instance come in and been an instant hit, and Torres not got injured (both of which were presumeably the plan at the seasons outset) who were we planning to play right midfield? Kuyt? Right midfield in a 4-4-2? Am I the only one who thinks that's a ridiculous idea? After five seasons of wheelings and dealings that's our plan? Hmmmm.
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Postby Rorschach26 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:35 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Sabre wrote:So, Bob, you wouldn't give him a long contract now, right? :)

The revolving doors criticism in some positions is undeniable. The fact we're debating to bring back Heskey speaks volumes. Only Torres signing has been convincing enough upfront, and I admit that criticism.

In the CM, he has built a much stronger team than the one that Houllier had. When Mick asked Gravesen and others, he wouldn't have mounted as strong midfield as Rafa has built, so in the CM department he has done the homework. It's true he was tempted to sell Alonso, or so it seems (there's the possibility of it being a way to press Xabi or Parry). But in the CM has done his homework.

In the CB, he has done the homework. 4 years ago I was worried about how we would make the transition from Carra-Hyypia, to the next CB, and IMHO Rafa might have secured the future.

In the Goal, a crucial position, he got it right from moment one when Reina still had things to prove.

In the wings, is where the revolving doors description is true. Riera ended it in the left only recently, and in the right we have tried lots of things but none convinced bar Gerrard.

Another positive point of Rafa is that he's able to make the players thinking we're building something. Alonso didn't want to go even if it happened what happened. Mascherano doesn't want to leave. Gerrard had temptations to go some years back, now nobody is worried. Torres would deny a millionaire offer of City. So, I think, that's an unbiased sign of progress. Normally players leave when they don't see they'll win titles, or when they don't earn enough money.

At this point you have to take a decission whether that's progress or not. You can't wait until the end of season because many teams will knocking Rafa's door (I think that if other teams want him is because they see progress in our club right?), so it's the time to give him a contract, or not.

IMHO he has done enough to get it, and automatically that answers the question of the thread.

Good post Sabre and make no mistake, mate, I still think Rafa is capable of winning the title with Liverpool.  I'm just a little concerned that every other transfer window he seems to bring in players who don't make the grade or don't fulfill the potential they showed elsewhere and I can't make out why that is.  It might be worth taking a closer look at his transfer record (only looking at players that have played for first team on more than an occasional basis to date):

Summer 2004
Incoming:
Alonso (undoubted success)
Garcia (also a success, IMO)
Josemi (not good enough but we still had Finnan ahead of him)
Nunez (not a success but was foisted upon us in Owen deal)

Outgoing:
Owen (little Rafa could do)
Murphy (possibly could have used him to help steady the ship that first season)

Overall assessment: some quality buys in Rafa's first window

January 2005
Incoming:
Morientes (unfortunately, not the success that many of us expected)
Pellegrino (not a success on the pitch but a decent backup & a good presence in the dressing room)
Carson (good buy at the time, IMO, as back-up for Dudek)

Outgoing:
Henchoz (a better option than Pellegrino?)

Overall assessment: a disappointing window but hindsight's 20/20 with Morientes

Summer 2005
Incoming:
Crouch (a very good signing, IMO)
Reina (an absolutely excellent bit of business)
Sissoko (another good signing, IMO; was excellent that season)
Zenden (not an amazing contribution but not a complete flop either)

Outgoing:
Baros (good call, IMO; cash in while he retained some value)
Diouf (good riddance)
Nunez (Rafa's first quick axe and rightly so)
Biscan (never going to get a game in his preferred CM role)
Pellegrino (see Nunez above)
Smicer (good call but was Zenden much better?)

Overall assessment: Rafa's best transfer window, IMO

January 2006
Incoming:
Agger (excellent signing)
Fowler (a very shrewd transfer, IMO, and not just in terms of PR)
Kromkamp (replaced Josemi but also not up to it despite looking more promising)

Outgoing:
Josemi (good move)

Overall assessment: Again, I think Rafa did well in this window and a sense of momentum was really building

Summer 2006
Incoming:
Pennant (played well in patches but ultimately not good enough)
Kuyt (will run all day but he's not the player we signed from Feyenoord)
Bellamy (played well in patches but ultimately not good enough)
Paletta (not good enough)
Gonzalez (not good enough)
Aurelio (has shown glimpses of what he's capable of but very fragile)

Outgoing:
Morientes (had to move on)
Traore (good move)
Kromkamp (good move)
Hamann (sad to see him go but he wanted more football so fair play to him)
Mellor (good move)
Cheyrou (good move)

Overall assessment: a lot of incoming players but, in hindsight, a lot of stop-gap buys or 'hope they come goods'.  Arguably Rafa's most disappointing transfer window.

January 2007
Incoming:
Arbeloa (a good RB to challenge Finnan bought at the 3rd time of asking)
Mascherano (top quality signing [arguably signed in following summer technically but it matters not for this discussion])
Insua (time will tell whether he's the real deal but has showed signs of promise)

Outgoing:
Kirkland (decent keeper but made of glass = surplus to requirements)
Warnock (probably should have kept, in hindsight)
Diao (good move)

Overall assessment: a nice rebound window for Rafa: 3 good signings and a restored sense of momentum, perhaps.  Losing Warnock now looks a mistake in hindsight but perhaps we had little choice to sell since he was 3rd in the pecking order (rightly so at the time) and wanted regular football.

Summer 2007
Incoming:
Torres (stellar signing)
Babel (in hindsight a very curious signing...not really looking promising at the moment)
Lucas (see above)
Benayoun (a good squad player but more in the ilk of Zenden than Garcia, IMO)
Voronin (poor signing despite being on a free)
Plessis (a little early to judge but jury is definitely still out)
Itandje (not steady enough as back-up to Reina)

Outgoing:
Bellamy (perhaps a touch too hasty to sell?)
Cisse (arguably, the same could be said as above)
Garcia (wanted to return to Spain and may have facilitated Torres transfer)
Fowler (it was probably time but a sad day nonetheless)
Gonzalez (good move)
Dudek (would have been a better bet as back-up, IMO, but seemed to want to sit on his duff in Madrid instead)


Overall assessment: the signing of Torres perhaps distorts things a little, as the other signings have looked adequate to poor.  In hindsight, we might have been a bit hasty to part with Bellamy and/or Cisse (in terms of their on-field attributes), given what we currently have available to us as 3rd and 4th choice strikers.

January 2008
Incoming:
Skrtel (good signing)

Outgoing:
Sissoko (a good move, IMO, given Masch's arrival and the fact that Momo was unhappy on the bench)

Overall assessment: good addition to the CB ranks to solidify that position further while sacrificing a player in a position where we have strength in depth (although some will wonder if Lucas offers anything more than Sissoko).

Summer 2008
Incoming:
Keane (not really working out is it?  [But may come good.])
Riera (a good signing in a problem position)
Dossena (looks out of his depth in England)
Cavalieri (looks okay at times, dodgy at others...jury still out, IMO)
Ngog (hard to judge whether this lad was a good cheap addition or someone simply taking a subs berth away from one of our reserve strikers)
Degen (if he wasn't such a sicknote we wouldn't need to be playing our best CB at RB and we'd have a sense of what he offers)

Outgoing:
Crouch (a shame to lose but wanted regular football; still had much to offer though)
Riise (performances had definitely slipped but still better than Dossena)
Carson (wanted to go and over-rated, IMO, anyway)
Finnan (could still do with this fella in the squad)
Kewell (time to go and he left us no option anyway)
Le Tallec (good move)

Overall assessment: judged on the table, it looks like a good summer of transfers.  Judged on the new lads' contributions, however, it looks a poor set of signings, bar Riera so far.  The list of outgoing players makes even more troubling reading, as I think Crouch, Riise and Finnan would all be playing vital roles for us still had they stayed.


So, in the final analysis, I do think Rafa's transfer record is cause for some concern.  As I've said throughout this post, hindsight is of course 20/20 but the more you look back on the players we've signed in recent seasons vs. the players we've let go, the more you wonder about Rafa's plan for the squad.  Anyway, it's food for thought.

so pretty much like every other managers in the history of the games career tranfer ins & outs

some brilliant
some great
some good 
some bad

complete waste of time
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Postby Rorschach26 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:43 pm

Madmax wrote:Its all about quality over quantity. Money does not always bring success. You could gain quality player through the youth system. Thats if they are good enough and the mangers notices thier potential and gives them a chance. Gerrard and carra are home grown players. Without them i dont think we would have got this far. Arsenal are bringing up good players through the youth system aswel players like Gavin Hoyte , aaron ramsey are great future talent. Wenger has got great judgment with youth players. His brought some fantistic players the young foreign lads are not bad either and look promising vela, merida, djourou,song, fiabianski..
IMO i think wenger is a brilliant judge of talent. He buys quality young stars. Pennant was shyte with arsenal, if he had bags of talent i think wenger would'nt have let him go. Dont know why we brought him then.

again with the wenger &  his amzing knack 4 spotting young talent ZZZZZZZZZZ booooorin

he makes it his priority 2 get the best youngsters around the world at the expense of experience thats why 4 however exciting they r they will always come short & because thier all super talented & young thier arrogant :censored: thats why atleast 2 of them leave every year

most of the players wenger buys i know about heyears before gets them but im i a genuis at spotting talent.................no im just not an idiot
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Postby devaney » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:44 pm

Raffmaker wrote:You all take yourselves far too seiously, digging out all of this history, transfers in- transfers out, league tables, Rafa's previous record.

None of it matters, and no one cares. Using the past as a measuring stick for the future is a dangerous game.

Also, say we don't win the league this season, what will happen next season, season after and season after?

Exact same scenrario, :censored:, Chelsea, and Man ure will all be just as strong or stronger, Man City have won the jackpot. All of these clubs have got not only the cream of the Europe crop in their teams, they have also got the cream of the Europe youngsters in their academys, for at least the next five seasons we will struggle to challenge for the league, unless we strive to bring better quality in throughout.

Its so simple like 1+1=2.

It goes   Money + Quality = Title.

Your somewhat simplistic view have been noted and ignored.

Really interesting post Bob. Rafa has spent over £200m (net about £100m) and I for one certainly think some of his transfer deals leave a lot to be desired. It is all about getting the right balance and understandably a lot of us think he has failed to achieve this. Players like Pennant and Bellamy who had previous should never have been bought - who does the homework?

I agree that no manager has a perfect transfer record but Rafa's is far worse than many of his peers.
Net Spend Over The Last 5 Years (10 years
are in brackets)
LFC £255m (£467m)
Everton £38m (£287m)
Arsenal £645m6 (£925m)
Spurs £510m (£541m)
Chelsea £788m (£1007m)
Man City £307m (£1012m)
Man United £702m (£1249m)
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Postby Sabre » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:55 pm

Bob, just to say that was a good report on our signings. I agree the assessment 85%, I'm still not sure for instance Keane will be a bad signing *eventually*, that signing is the one that can make the last summer good or bad.

I agree on the Dossennas, on the Nuñezs, on the trial and errors (Bellamy, Voronin), certainly he has done some of that.

I'm worried about signings like the one of Dossena and Degen too.

I'd say that overall his signings have not been brilliant, not poor neither. That is, his signings shouldn't be used as a major reason to give him a contract or not. Despite my analysis was not that accurate, it still remains true that he's got spot on some key positions, and some others are missing.

I think that Rafa has a strong squad from last year, and thus, I expect not lots of trial signings, I expect few but quality ones. And I also expect that Rafa don't do an "Alonso" again with players I consider key for the future, like Agger or Mascherano.
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Postby fivecups » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:13 pm

bigmick wrote:And improve it has, but prior to this season our finishing position and proximity to the league Champions has hardly moved at all. That tells me that quite simply either we haven't improved by as much as we ought to reasonably expect (definately in my opinion) or that the other teams have improved as well (probably in some cases, not in others). This season as opposed to last season for instance, our first team if everybody has fit has improved to the extent that we've repaced Babel with Riera at left midfield. Leaving aside that this massive stride cost us 40 million quid, I have to ask is it sufficient to realistically expect to pull in the other big clubs?

Mick, you've mentioned this a few times but I think our net spend last summer was closer to £12 million.
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:24 pm

fivecups wrote:
bigmick wrote:And improve it has, but prior to this season our finishing position and proximity to the league Champions has hardly moved at all. That tells me that quite simply either we haven't improved by as much as we ought to reasonably expect (definately in my opinion) or that the other teams have improved as well (probably in some cases, not in others). This season as opposed to last season for instance, our first team if everybody has fit has improved to the extent that we've repaced Babel with Riera at left midfield. Leaving aside that this massive stride cost us 40 million quid, I have to ask is it sufficient to realistically expect to pull in the other big clubs?

Mick, you've mentioned this a few times but I think our net spend last summer was closer to £12 million.

We SPENT £40million+....... net £20million+


        Bought                   Sold
Total: £ 40300000     Total: £ 18750000( + whatever we got for Finnan)
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Postby Raffmaker » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:26 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Raffmaker wrote:You all take yourselves far too seiously, digging out all of this history, transfers in- transfers out, league tables, Rafa's previous record.

None of it matters, and no one cares. Using the past as a measuring stick for the future is a dangerous game.

Also, say we don't win the league this season, what will happen next season, season after and season after?

Exact same scenrario, :censored:, Chelsea, and Man ure will all be just as strong or stronger, Man City have won the jackpot. All of these clubs have got not only the cream of the Europe crop in their teams, they have also got the cream of the Europe youngsters in their academys, for at least the next five seasons we will struggle to challenge for the league, unless we strive to bring better quality in throughout.

Its so simple like 1+1=2.

It goes   Money + Quality = Title.

Well cheers for simplifying things for us, mate, but I think we can safely assume that everyone grasps the broad strokes you've outlined.  In fact, it would be a very boring board indeed if all anyone ever posted was "we need more money and more quality players to win the title."  Thanks for refreshing our memories, though...I'd nearly forgotten the solutions were so straightforward.  :glare:

I got your point mate and I agree 1 Billion %.

But it doesnt matter what we all say in here, getting frustrated, angry, bemused etc. Like me, (I would rather chew my own vomit than See Utd win the league again!)

It only matters what happens on that pitch! thats all that matters.

One positive to date is, although we have not played that well, we are still joint top on points, and we have tended to be good finishers in the run-in.

we still have a good chance.
:D
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