Liverpool FC Forum

[Greavesie]

Clubs in the shitter end off

[fivecups]

my initial guarded enthusiasm has deserted me and i'm suddenly thoroughly depressed about our prospects. its not helped my suddenly coming down with a bugger of a head cold and having an ongoing nightmare with UPS and spanish and norwegian customs, plus not getting a good night's sleep for 3 days, plus having easyjet suddenly cancel a flight on me and leaving me stranded in england for 2 days when i really really want to go home thanks to the french gits.

regardless of all that i'm just not seeing roy making any kind of impact on morale, tactics, motivation and more importantly results. again we see a baffling lack of subs and stubbornly unsuccessful tactics, while he sits with his head in his hands. its like watching the worst bits of rafa on repeat while a caretaker manager watches with the dawning horror that he's out of his depth.

maybe roy will turn it around, maybe we'll suddenly find some momentum from somewhere, and maybe cole and mereiles will give us that spark we so desperately need. my general feeling though is that we're going to have to get used to uefa cup football for a good while to come as we'll not make the CL spots this season and we'll lose players because of it.

by christ i'm on a downer.

on a more positive note i had a very pleasant lunch time pint with ben patrick yesterday and can confirm that he actually exists even though he's a right shady bugger.

The happy bus   

[Thommo's perm]

I'd guess that many of us are actually not all that surprised by this result. Gutted, angry, bemused, but not actually surprised.

Because we all know that this is not the first time this has happened.

The reality is that the team that played last night should have been good enough to win the match. There were 5 or 6, perhaps 7, fringe players (many of them full internationals of good teams) who should have been playing out of their socks to prove something to the manager. So how did they fail like this?

Is it because they are bad players? Well, no. They are good players. Many of them players we have been asking to see more.

Did Hodgson get his tactics wrong? That I don’t know, I haven’t seen the game, but I can’t believe that is the problem.

Perhaps Northampton just played out of their skins; this was their Cup Final after all. From what I’ve read, that isn’t the case either.

The point is that results like these happen far too often. Why? Perhaps it is not the players or the managers or the owners. Perhaps there is a culture that has crept into the team over the years that has made it acceptable for players to just go through the motions. I’ve lived in more than one culture. I’ve been involved in a number of organisations, where despite changes in personnel, the same strengths and weaknesses are present. Why? Culture.

LFC needs a change in culture. That will take time. And it isn’t going to be easy.

What do I want to see Roy do?

If you don’t perform, you don’t play.

1. Tell the players they were rubbish, and until they show him otherwise, they shouldn’t expect to play. He still needs to give them chances to prove themselves, one game isn’t enough, but he should underline that by losing this game, their chances of doing that have just gone down.

2. Having not seen the Northampton game, but assuming that they were all rubbish, I’d select this team for Saturday.

Reina
Johnson
Cara
Skrtel
Koncheskey
Amoo
Poulsen
Meireles
Cole
Gerrard
Torres

Some of them (perhaps Cara, Skrtel and Torres for instance) are only in the team because those pressing them haven’t shown enough.

That would be a start, but culture goes deep, and change takes time. It could be a long road folks, even with new owners.

I agree pretty much with everything you have written, you are right. I think that this is what the people on this board are often alluding to, but we all haven't acknowledged that culture change started in the 90's after Kenny left. We base all of our focus on the managers, but it's the money that the players are earning and the commercial opportunities that different tournaments offer (or don't) that determine whether people are arsed to even show up for a game.

Long gone is the concept of putting on a liverpool shirt and it really meaning something (save for the obvious few) and you die for it. So we're in 4 competitions.....we'll have the lot thank you very much. Nah, we're not there any more.

Even the threat of a player not playing isn't a worry for them anymore, they're still earning the same, show up every week day for a little spot of training, then a massage and whatever luxuries they get....they dont' give a monkeys the lot of em.

What I would like to see if a pay structure come in that sees them earning considerably less if they never get their tracky bottoms off and their off the bench.....that'd change the hunger.....oh yeah and we should all make em clean the bogs out on a rotational basis after the players who have bled for the club have taken an all mighty dump in em. We shouldn't give em any products either...they should do it with their hands.

Personally this is why I still hold out some hope for Roy and I think that the club went for him. I think that it is recognised we need the old school back and I think that is what he'll bring. He gave a lot of people a chance to shine over these last few weeks and I think he will go old school now (hope that at least) and really sort some people out....We've gotta put our faith in that happening.

As for the squad, I would like to see the same startnig 11 every game, no excuses...get out there lads and make it happen.

Onwards and upwards

You are talking about pain my friend
A lot of PAIN...

[bigmick]

He seriously has to abandon this deep lying defense nonsense, it worked under Houllier to an extent because we had 2 superb centre halfs and Heskey and Owen up front to win the long balls and run on and score, atm we have Carra who is underperforming and tbh I have lost faith in all the other CBs. Up front we have Torres and no one within 20yds when it gets punted up to him. Get it down, press higher up, let the wide midfielders tuck in and encourage the fullbacks to provide width and let Poulsen/Lucas defend and Meireles/Gerrard pull the strings. Let the opposition have to worry about us coming forward, not easily sweep away hopeful punts and pin us back because we're sitting so deep.

Now Roy Hodgson has approximately 230 years more top flght expierence that me but how many teams do we play where what Ive typed above would leave us struggling? To think that my application for the job apparantly didnt even warrant a reply

A very good football post that mate, and I agree with every word 

[Ben Patrick]

my initial guarded enthusiasm has deserted me and i'm suddenly thoroughly depressed about our prospects. its not helped my suddenly coming down with a bugger of a head cold and having an ongoing nightmare with UPS and spanish and norwegian customs, plus not getting a good night's sleep for 3 days, plus having easyjet suddenly cancel a flight on me and leaving me stranded in england for 2 days when i really really want to go home thanks to the french gits.

regardless of all that i'm just not seeing roy making any kind of impact on morale, tactics, motivation and more importantly results. again we see a baffling lack of subs and stubbornly unsuccessful tactics, while he sits with his head in his hands. its like watching the worst bits of rafa on repeat while a caretaker manager watches with the dawning horror that he's out of his depth.

maybe roy will turn it around, maybe we'll suddenly find some momentum from somewhere, and maybe cole and mereiles will give us that spark we so desperately need. my general feeling though is that we're going to have to get used to uefa cup football for a good while to come as we'll not make the CL spots this season and we'll lose players because of it.

by christ i'm on a downer.

on a more positive note i had a very pleasant lunch time pint with ben patrick yesterday and can confirm that he actually exists even though he's a right shady bugger.

Shady bugger 

















































Enjoyed the pint mate, its a shame i was only on lunch and couldnt have a few more and a proper chat about what's going wrong.
We would need plenty of ale for that though 

[Homebooby]

I'd guess that many of us are actually not all that surprised by this result. Gutted, angry, bemused, but not actually surprised.

Because we all know that this is not the first time this has happened.

The reality is that the team that played last night should have been good enough to win the match. There were 5 or 6, perhaps 7, fringe players (many of them full internationals of good teams) who should have been playing out of their socks to prove something to the manager. So how did they fail like this?

Is it because they are bad players? Well, no. They are good players. Many of them players we have been asking to see more.

Did Hodgson get his tactics wrong? That I don’t know, I haven’t seen the game, but I can’t believe that is the problem.

Perhaps Northampton just played out of their skins; this was their Cup Final after all. From what I’ve read, that isn’t the case either.

The point is that results like these happen far too often. Why? Perhaps it is not the players or the managers or the owners. Perhaps there is a culture that has crept into the team over the years that has made it acceptable for players to just go through the motions. I’ve lived in more than one culture. I’ve been involved in a number of organisations, where despite changes in personnel, the same strengths and weaknesses are present. Why? Culture.

LFC needs a change in culture. That will take time. And it isn’t going to be easy.

What do I want to see Roy do?

If you don’t perform, you don’t play.

1. Tell the players they were rubbish, and until they show him otherwise, they shouldn’t expect to play. He still needs to give them chances to prove themselves, one game isn’t enough, but he should underline that by losing this game, their chances of doing that have just gone down.

2. Having not seen the Northampton game, but assuming that they were all rubbish, I’d select this team for Saturday.

Reina
Johnson
Cara
Skrtel
Koncheskey
Amoo
Poulsen
Meireles
Cole
Gerrard
Torres

Some of them (perhaps Cara, Skrtel and Torres for instance) are only in the team because those pressing them haven’t shown enough.

That would be a start, but culture goes deep, and change takes time. It could be a long road folks, even with new owners.

I agree pretty much with everything you have written, you are right. I think that this is what the people on this board are often alluding to, but we all haven't acknowledged that culture change started in the 90's after Kenny left. We base all of our focus on the managers, but it's the money that the players are earning and the commercial opportunities that different tournaments offer (or don't) that determine whether people are arsed to even show up for a game.

Long gone is the concept of putting on a liverpool shirt and it really meaning something (save for the obvious few) and you die for it. So we're in 4 competitions.....we'll have the lot thank you very much. Nah, we're not there any more.

Even the threat of a player not playing isn't a worry for them anymore, they're still earning the same, show up every week day for a little spot of training, then a massage and whatever luxuries they get....they dont' give a monkeys the lot of em.

What I would like to see if a pay structure come in that sees them earning considerably less if they never get their tracky bottoms off and their off the bench.....that'd change the hunger.....oh yeah and we should all make em clean the bogs out on a rotational basis after the players who have bled for the club have taken an all mighty dump in em. We shouldn't give em any products either...they should do it with their hands.

Personally this is why I still hold out some hope for Roy and I think that the club went for him. I think that it is recognised we need the old school back and I think that is what he'll bring. He gave a lot of people a chance to shine over these last few weeks and I think he will go old school now (hope that at least) and really sort some people out....We've gotta put our faith in that happening.

As for the squad, I would like to see the same startnig 11 every game, no excuses...get out there lads and make it happen.

Onwards and upwards

You are talking about pain my friend
A lot of PAIN...

It doesn't make it any less true though does it. Nothing good comes without a struggle and I think people are starting to fully realise that we aren't going to bounce back. A lot of people on this board have been saying that for some time....I just don't think it is down to one factor, be it manager, owners etc....it all plays a part and we need to get to grips with the possibility/probability that we are still a long way away from revisiting former glories.

The only way we will succeed is for the academy to start churning out quality players, the source of any business is if you aren't making anything, you are vulnerable and we have fallen short here. plain and simple.

Old fashioned values, tough times, Roy will be the fall guy here, the hatchet man and probably will be moved on once that job has been done.

[Thommo's perm]

"It doesn't make it any less true though does it. Nothing good comes without a struggle and I think people are starting to fully realise that we aren't going to bounce back. A lot of people on this board have been saying that for some time....I just don't think it is down to one factor, be it manager, owners etc....it all plays a part and we need to get to grips with the possibility/probability that we are still a long way away from revisiting former glories.

The only way we will succeed is for the academy to start churning out quality players, the source of any business is if you aren't making anything, you are vulnerable and we have fallen short here. plain and simple.

Old fashioned values, tough times, Roy will be the fall guy here, the hatchet man and probably will be moved on once that job has been done."

Youre talking about a whole new era and fundamental change. There will be casualties along the way and it will probably set us back a couple of seasons. We could lose our best players and fall even further down the table...

[Homebooby]

It's happening before our eyes though isn't it. The most loyal players are getting older and although they'll stay with us, the road is downhill for them as age kicks in. Unless things start picking up dramatically in the service department for Torres, he will be on his way. He's 2 - 3 years away from his prime and he needs to give himself every chance of playing to his full ability at the highest level. We are nowhere near offering that and it's a very large probability that he won't be here next season unless something magical happens. It can happen, but at this moment, looks unlikely right?

Until major funds come in, I don't think we're looking at 3 - 5 years, more like 5 - 10.

[stmichael]

regardless of all that i'm just not seeing roy making any kind of impact on morale, tactics, motivation and more importantly results. again we see a baffling lack of subs and stubbornly unsuccessful tactics, while he sits with his head in his hands. its like watching the worst bits of rafa on repeat while a caretaker manager watches with the dawning horror that he's out of his depth.

that's why I was so annoyed at the brainless media jumping on another ridiculous bandwagon after the game the other night.

the whole focus was on how bad the players were that Rafa 'left behind' without any mention of the set-up or tactics employed during the game.

[maypaxvobiscum]

if the more ambitious players wanna win trophies....they should leave the club. its not gonna happen anytime before they retire.

[Thommo's perm]

if the more ambitious players wanna win trophies....they should leave the club. its not gonna happen anytime before they retire.

You could have said that in 2006...

[maypaxvobiscum]

if the more ambitious players wanna win trophies....they should leave the club. its not gonna happen anytime before they retire.

You could have said that in 2006...

not at all Thommo. back then, City, Spurs and Villa were hardly any threats to us unlike now. so i was confident that despite not being able to win the league, Champions League was a certainty. but last season, while other teams reinforced their squads, we did not.

of course Rafa is to blame as he had many negatives which i was very critical of (tactics, selections, transfers, man-management) but the main crux of the blame lies with the owners as its because of them we are finding it hard to lure star players to the club which would benefit any form of title challenge.

thanks to those yanks, we're not evolving, but devolving.

[kunilson]

i go away for one week's holiday.

looks like the evolving hasn't started yet...

[Thommo's perm]

i go away for one week's holiday.

looks like the evolving hasn't started yet...

Evolution takes years
We want a quick fix

[stmichael]

anyone can see that we need a change of system urgently though. the current system is nullifying the strengths and maximising the weaknesses of nearly everyone in the squad.