Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

My Assestment so far

Formation - 4-4-2 , totally the wrong formation to play last night for a few reasons . 1. We dont have the players to play the formation , no true left or right midfielders with both Jovanovic and Kuyt preferring to play in a right or left forward role supporting one striker , Gerrard sits too deep and becomes ineffective for the majority of the game , Torres doesnt work with another high forward alongside him . 2. Man City went in with three in the middle and they were always going to swamp and out number our two there no matter who the two were - It meant Kuyt or Jovanovic tried to come inside to help out but that left the wide areas exposed . We needed someone else in the middle to help out it was clear as day to see. 4-4-2 is a formation that is rarely used by any of the top teams and is only realy used by the teams looking to not get beat . Unfortunatly its one of Hodgsons favoured formations but that needs to change - we work best as a 4-2-3-1 .

Tactics - We sat very deep and at numerous times we looked like we had parked the bus and had 11 men behind the ball with no counter attack threat at all - very sad to see . We tried to be solid but were vunerable in all areas on the pitch and we had no cutting edge , no creativity and no imagination .

Squad - Extra weak and thin in a lot of areas - Left back , Creative midfielder, pace in wide areas , striker and commanding cb . Last night we were prob missing only one player who will form our first 11 for the season and that was Cole . We have neither the first 11 nor the squad to challenge for at top 4 squad but we dont have the finances to add to the squad unless players are sold .

Possession - For the first number of games are percentage of possesion has been below the opposition and that is something we have never seen for a number of years - 35% it was last night and 40 something % at home against arsenal . Even when we werent playing well over the last couple of season we at least managed to get hold of the ball and hold it - last night we couldnt even get hold of it and when we did it was gone quickly

Creating Chances - The amount we have created over the last couple of games has been very low , Hart had to make two quick saves last night but bar that nothing else , against arsenal we didnt create many , same against the turkish outfit . There is no point having torres when we arent creating anything for him .

Passion - Last night there was none - nothing from the players , no one trying to lift the players , no one screaming at players in encouragment - we look totally flat .

Manager during the game - Only saw him rise from bench a couple of times and then i just saw him say " come on " and clap his hands while mancini was always up trying to direct things - there didnt seem to be any direction coming from our manager and he looked a little lost when things werent obviously working . When changes did come it was too late and game was lost . Hodgson looked like a rabbit in the headlights as i think he suddenly realised the situation he is in with the squad and the lack of option and the inability to buy options without having to sell one of the best players we have .

We are going to have one hell of a rollercoaster season and i hope hodgson realised his error in formation and sticks with the 4-2-5-1

Pepe 

Johnson
Agger
Carra
Aurelio or new left back

Lucas/Poulsen
Gerrard/Lucas

Kuyt/Maxi/Cole
Jovanovic/Maxi/Cole

Cole/Gerrard/Pacheco

Torres/Ngog

Stick with that an we may be able to compete in most games and if we keep them all fit we may sneak a CL place but unlikely IMO .

Hodgson needs our support now more than ever before in the previous years - he is onto a hiding to nothing with our owners and he has his hands tied . No one knows how much he has to do with players like Aquilani leaving on loan which is a massive mistake .

Good luck Hodgson - you will need it . Make us proud . YNWA

Don't have time to reply at length, but I'd like to make a couple of points:

1) Agreed about 4-4-2 last night.  It was the wrong time with the wrong personnel, regardless of whether it was in part forced by the Masch circus or not.

2) I think this attempt to draw a pattern about lack of possession is weak: we played a whole half against Arsenal down a man...of course our possession numbers looked poor.  No excuses for last night--we were very poor with the ball--but it has not been the massive pattern it is being made out to be.

3) I think the suggestion that we didn't create chances against the Turks is WAY off.  We could have (and probably should have) won 4-1 or 5-1 (to be fair to them and say that Pepe had no business saving the one he did).

In sum, then, things were well wrong last night but the attempts to draw a dimmer picture of Roy's tenure based on broader patterns to do with possession and chances is, IMO, off the mark.

[Ciggy]

But you, and others, will still rather have that fat guy back who got us into this mess.

F*cking typical of fans today

Rafa got us into this mess    Sorry I beg to differ them pair of tw@tting owners got us into this mess Daws I expect better than that from you.
And if your of that opinion that Rafa is to blame for our current mess well yes it is F*cking typical of fans today burying their heads in the sand.

[dawson99]

But you, and others, will still rather have that fat guy back who got us into this mess.

F*cking typical of fans today

Rafa got us into this mess    Sorry I beg to differ them pair of tw@tting owners got us into this mess Daws I expect better than that from you.
And if your of that opinion that Rafa is to blame for our current mess well yes it is F*cking typical of fans today burying their heads in the sand.

sorry cigs... he was genius last season, he should be knighted.
All im saying is you, and otehrs are already saying Hodg is over his head, when its Rafa and the owners who left him with what hes got

[maguskwt]

But some on here were too intent on blaming rafa that they didn't see what the real problem was. The real problem was that we were 300 million in debt and didn't spend on the squad for 2 seasons.

Good post and so true.  I always said that Rafa was used as a scapegoat for a poor season.
Sure he wasted money but all managers have.  unfortunately at Liverpool with our financial position..
we cant afford to make any big errors in the market.

i think this season may be proof that Rafa was far from our biggest problem.

It reminds me of the thread "What is the priority, new manager or new owners".

i don't believe any manager in the world can improve our fortunes without funds.
The ownership issue is crucial to our survival as a top club.

No mate, arm around the shoulder treatment should get us up there challenging again...

[fivecups]

My Assestment so far

Formation - 4-4-2 , totally the wrong formation to play last night for a few reasons . 1. We dont have the players to play the formation , no true left or right midfielders with both Jovanovic and Kuyt preferring to play in a right or left forward role supporting one striker , Gerrard sits too deep and becomes ineffective for the majority of the game , Torres doesnt work with another high forward alongside him . 2. Man City went in with three in the middle and they were always going to swamp and out number our two there no matter who the two were - It meant Kuyt or Jovanovic tried to come inside to help out but that left the wide areas exposed . We needed someone else in the middle to help out it was clear as day to see. 4-4-2 is a formation that is rarely used by any of the top teams and is only realy used by the teams looking to not get beat . Unfortunatly its one of Hodgsons favoured formations but that needs to change - we work best as a 4-2-3-1 .

Tactics - We sat very deep and at numerous times we looked like we had parked the bus and had 11 men behind the ball with no counter attack threat at all - very sad to see . We tried to be solid but were vunerable in all areas on the pitch and we had no cutting edge , no creativity and no imagination .

Squad - Extra weak and thin in a lot of areas - Left back , Creative midfielder, pace in wide areas , striker and commanding cb . Last night we were prob missing only one player who will form our first 11 for the season and that was Cole . We have neither the first 11 nor the squad to challenge for at top 4 squad but we dont have the finances to add to the squad unless players are sold .

Possession - For the first number of games are percentage of possesion has been below the opposition and that is something we have never seen for a number of years - 35% it was last night and 40 something % at home against arsenal . Even when we werent playing well over the last couple of season we at least managed to get hold of the ball and hold it - last night we couldnt even get hold of it and when we did it was gone quickly

Creating Chances - The amount we have created over the last couple of games has been very low , Hart had to make two quick saves last night but bar that nothing else , against arsenal we didnt create many , same against the turkish outfit . There is no point having torres when we arent creating anything for him .

Passion - Last night there was none - nothing from the players , no one trying to lift the players , no one screaming at players in encouragment - we look totally flat .

Manager during the game - Only saw him rise from bench a couple of times and then i just saw him say " come on " and clap his hands while mancini was always up trying to direct things - there didnt seem to be any direction coming from our manager and he looked a little lost when things werent obviously working . When changes did come it was too late and game was lost . Hodgson looked like a rabbit in the headlights as i think he suddenly realised the situation he is in with the squad and the lack of option and the inability to buy options without having to sell one of the best players we have .

We are going to have one hell of a rollercoaster season and i hope hodgson realised his error in formation and sticks with the 4-2-5-1

Pepe 

Johnson
Agger
Carra
Aurelio or new left back

Lucas/Poulsen
Gerrard/Lucas

Kuyt/Maxi/Cole
Jovanovic/Maxi/Cole

Cole/Gerrard/Pacheco

Torres/Ngog

Stick with that an we may be able to compete in most games and if we keep them all fit we may sneak a CL place but unlikely IMO .

Hodgson needs our support now more than ever before in the previous years - he is onto a hiding to nothing with our owners and he has his hands tied . No one knows how much he has to do with players like Aquilani leaving on loan which is a massive mistake .

Good luck Hodgson - you will need it . Make us proud . YNWA

Excellent post Benny, I agree with most of it. FWIW I thought there was a lot of effort last night but with an extra man in midfield and the quality City have all over the pitch we we're simply outplayed.

[maguskwt]

But you, and others, will still rather have that fat guy back who got us into this mess.

F*cking typical of fans today

Rafa got us into this mess    Sorry I beg to differ them pair of tw@tting owners got us into this mess Daws I expect better than that from you.
And if your of that opinion that Rafa is to blame for our current mess well yes it is F*cking typical of fans today burying their heads in the sand.

sorry cigs... he was genius last season, he should be knighted.
All im saying is you, and otehrs are already saying Hodg is over his head, when its Rafa and the owners who left him with what hes got

Rafa left hodgson with a decent squad with high overall value. If it doesn't look like we will be bringing replacements after we sell masch and dirk, then who's fault is that?

And who loaned out a creative midfielder, an italy international no less when we are lacking options?

[stmichael]

the fact that we're still bringing babel on to try and change a game after two years of shocking displays sums up the lack of depth in the squad.

[Ciggy]

sorry cigs... he was genius last season, he should be knighted.
All im saying is you, and otehrs are already saying Hodg is over his head, when its Rafa and the owners who left him with what hes got

You will not find one single fan who loved Rafa saying we where great last season, it was an utter shambles and a disaster, but that was not all down to rafa it was down to broken promises of tevez coming and Silva and these players did not materialise.
The opening day of the season against Spurs you could tell the players where p!ssed off because no improvements came, yes Rafa fecked up big time selling Alonso and buying Aqualini the worst thing he ever done with his pursuit of fecking Gazbaz.

The constantly playing Lucas & Mascherano and the undroppable Kuyt he has to shoulder the blame for these mistakes they where his fault.

But I cannot understand how we lost just two games the season before to losing 17 was it ? the season later with the same team minus Alonso. With the same manager, so you have to point the finger in the direction of the boardroom and the liars that currently run the show.
Rafa got involved with the in house fighting he was a thorn in their side thats why they got shut and hired roy because they know Roy wont say feck all to them or the press.

But we really need CL money to pay the debts we are fecked without them you see that now, we have 2 freebies Poulson and Brad Jones our net spent so far is 6 million.
Players that have left Dossena, Aqualini (on loan), Vornin, Reira, Benayoun thats around 18 million and yet we have spent around 6 million pound on two new players.

So it didnt make sense to sack a manager costing us 6 million in the process hiring a new one costing another 3 million when the one who we paid 6 million to would have had more of a chance on getting us into the CL than the one we have currently in charge.

All managers sign sh!t players. All managers make baffling team selections, and all managers annoy the feck out of fans with their subs (or lack of) or try and change the game when its not working Rafa done it, and Roy done it last night.

[dawson99]

But you, and others, will still rather have that fat guy back who got us into this mess.

F*cking typical of fans today

Rafa got us into this mess    Sorry I beg to differ them pair of tw@tting owners got us into this mess Daws I expect better than that from you.
And if your of that opinion that Rafa is to blame for our current mess well yes it is F*cking typical of fans today burying their heads in the sand.

sorry cigs... he was genius last season, he should be knighted.
All im saying is you, and otehrs are already saying Hodg is over his head, when its Rafa and the owners who left him with what hes got

Rafa left hodgson with a decent squad with high overall value. If it doesn't look like we will be bringing replacements after we sell masch and dirk, then who's fault is that?

And who loaned out a creative midfielder, an italy international no less when we are lacking options?

Sorry, a decent squad? He brought a crock 20 million player who is struggling to pass a medical for a loan deal... now our players are unsettled as he tries to buy them, we have no cover in certain areas, dont know what this high value means in footballing terms.

and we played sh!te last night, no arguaments there, but no need to turn on the manager.

Rafa wanted out last season, we all saw it, his lack of emotion, he doesnt care, but we still make shrines for him and stuff, its bizarre

[Benny The Noon]

Guys I'm sure there is a thread somewhere else where you can discuss our previous manager - please don't ruin this thread and please people stop slating him now - he is no longer manager and we have a new manager and the responsibilty is with him now .

[maguskwt]

It's no use trying to talk sense into people who burry their head in the sand... The tag of liverpool's fans being the most knowledgeable sadly doesn't apply to all

[burjennio]

We are going to have one hell of a rollercoaster season and i hope hodgson realised his error in formation and sticks with the 4-2-5-1

I agree completely, if we can get away with it then this is the formation to play!

lol u beat me to that, Id fancy are chances against anyone with that formation! Except away at Boro, we NEVER get a result there!

[dawson99]

sorry, everyones just pi$$ed at the situation, there should be some way to take blood pressure before being allowed to post, we're all just venting

[Benny The Noon]

We are going to have one hell of a rollercoaster season and i hope hodgson realised his error in formation and sticks with the 4-2-5-1

I agree completely, if we can get away with it then this is the formation to play!

lol u beat me to that, Id fancy are chances against anyone with that formation! Except away at Boro, we NEVER get a result there!

Have edited my error 

[In and Out]

Okay I'll try and add a bit of decent discussion to this thread.

FWIW the formation Roy chooses will need time to be bedded in especially if it's a 4-4-2. Last night was the first time N'gog and Torres played upfront together. He surely needs the privelidge of finding the best dynamics with the players at his disposal, unfortunately some of those players shouldn't be near the first team squad on such a regular basis, whatever...


I wasn't that impressed with Citeh to be honest we weren't on the back ropes so to speak we were just chasing shadows most of the night. Those shadows were being chased in midfield and it's not as if they were attacking us at will. Tevez IMO was the difference between our strikers and theirs, he made the ball stick, he controlled the ball brillantly shrugged a player off and waited for support. Something either N'gog or Torres couldn't do, Kuyt to was guily of trapping the ball further than John Madden can kick.

It was the same under the previous manager our ball retention as a team overall is so fecking poor in comparison to at least half a dozen sides in the Prem. Instead of retaining the ball our lads are to quick and from to deep always looking to play the killer pass, it's to predictable. Jovonovic was a dissapoint last night, infact the midfield four as a unit were, both Jovanovic and Kuyt were largely inefficient out wide. Nothing really clicked, we did have a few nice patterns of play during the first half and a little pressure in the second half but isn't nearly enough. I remember when we played this formation under Rafa and couldn't get a win for toffee, then all of a sudden he went 4.2.3.1 and we went on a role, the team dynamics were better. Perhaps after looking at that last night we don't really have the personel to play a 4-4-2 and even if we do it will take a hell of a lot of work to get it working.

We played 4-4-2 under Houllier and that worked (different players of course) and the one thing I did notice compared to last nights game was that Houllier always had the two banks of four tight together. It was a unit, first the oppo would have to break down a wall of four and do the same against the defence to get a sight on goal. We were hard to break down, but last night there was no discipline players were caught out here and out of poition there, we didn't look like a unit it looked erratic.

Citeh on the other hand played lovely little composed triangles and their ability and control on the ball made certain players on our side look like amateurs. Firstly their retention was class and their movement off the ball was good ours was non-exsistant and that has nothing to do with ROy at this early stage of his season, we've always been like this even under Rafa. Yet Roy went for an expansive approach maybe due to force changes or whatever it didn't pay off, he'll learn from it. It will take more transfers unfortunatley to get the right players in who look comfortable with the ball at their feet, Cole being one of them, Aquallani perhaps would have been another.

I'm not going to loose sleep over this as no way can I see this season being anyworse than last seasons shambolic displays, just give the guy a chance ffs.