Roy's Liverpool - How's it Evolving? - Set Up, Tactics, In-Depth Footy Chat

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby aCe' » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:32 pm

fergieisawhiskeynosedtw@t wrote:
rocky29 wrote:Image


fergieisawhiskeynosedtw@t wrote:rocky you have had too many punches to the head son! :wwww

ye your right i have plenty punches to my head over the years but no pipsqueak like you has ever knocked me out yet we can all act tough sat behind a computer?

just read your post



pipsqueak? that made me laugh  your an ok fella for a total mong

you and your boyfriend either get a room or take your little fight elsewhere... This is one of few threads were people actually discuss footy rather than their struggles with puberty..

no offense though..
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Postby 7_Kewell » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:34 pm

I agree with the formation change. Masch would have definatly started today. i'm not saying we would have won, but it played a big part i'm sure of it.
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Postby Benny The Noon » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:46 pm

Blaming masher for tonight is the easy option but let's face reality and realise we are going to have to deal with it as believe he has played his last game for us and people will see how underrated he is - replacing him with poulsen is a step backwards but its what we have to work with under our current financial constraints - listening to Hodgson in interview after match he wasn't exactly positive about bringing players in as well .
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Postby Scottbot » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:22 am

BKrimmel wrote:While everything right now isn't as horrible as it seems and we all just keep telling ourselves that it is going to get better, that there will be some exciting moments and that there is just too much pure quality on the field to be playing this poorly, I think that is a very delusional feeling. This club has six major problems:

1. Not getting a share of possession: No better shown than tonight against City. Midway through the second ESPN flashed up the possession numbers and it was 74 to 26. Seriously? You can not win games (or even earn draws) with only 26 percent of the ball. City was able to hold the ball very well after going up early one nil and was able to be patient, so it is understandable that they had more of the possession, but Liverpool couldn't even hold the ball in their own half. Then as they went forward it was embarrassingly inaccurate passes to the front men, sloppy passes in the midfield, and players trying to dribble through double teams. This led to easy City possession and chances for them on the break to score. The biggest offender is Lucas. His midfield play was horrible tonight. He would either pass backwards to a defender or Gerrard or would "pass" (using pass loosely, because I have no idea what he is doing sometimes) it forwards to a member of City. With Alberto gone, and Javier packing his bags, Poulsen better become the player to spread the ball and hold midfield, because I think Lucas is a detriment to LFC holding the ball.

2. The midfield is old: Kuyt, Gerrard, Poulsen are all 30. Milan, Maxi, Joe Cole (in early November) are 29. Javier is 26 and Lucas is 23, but you know how I feel about Lucas. The midfield should be the heart of the team, as it was in 2004-2008 (remember the best midfield in the world chant? Xabi Alonso, Momo...). Youngsters are on the club but get no first team experience behind this ancient roadblock of players. Now I am not knocking the play of Gerrard, Kuyt, Milan (who has really impressed these first two starts), Maxi, and Javier, but I don't know how much more good football these guys can put onto the field. Where is the future of the club? Where is the next Gerrard coming from? Liverpool doesn’t seem to have much growing on the farm and hasn’t made any moves for a young guy to come learn the Premier League game so he can be ready for his time. Part of this is due to the new manager, but the clock is ticking. Not making the top four would be disastrous for the future of the club this year and it seems that disaster is headed our way. When the guys coming in off the bench are as old as the starters something is wrong. These leads right into problem number 3...

3. Extreme lack of pace: Does Liverpool have anybody on the field who can get the ball on the wing and take off down the touch line? Just bust :censored: past backs? Or grab a clearing header from a corner kick and lead the counterstrike? Anybody? Torres had that amazing speed, but hasn’t showed any of it, not in the World Cup and definitely not today against City. Ngog has decent speed, Babel does too, but anyone in the Midfield? The wingers can not get past anybody in a foot race. Kuyt doesn’t seem to have the pace, Milan hasn’t showed it either, nor Maxi. (I will wait to make a judgment on Joe Cole to see some more match time on him). But if the midfield poses no threat of blowing by defenders than you can expect more tight pressing on the midfield which will lead to more turnovers and more sickness for supporters. Gareth Bale, Adam Johnson, SWP, Ashley Young, Nani, Malouda, Nasri, Arshavin, Aaron Lennon, and Walcott (just to name a few), all have that ridiculous pace that makes defenders pray that they don’t get a running start at them, which forces back off when they have the ball leaving great space. Liverpool doesn’t have any sort of speedy winger who can fly down the touch line and scares the bejesus out of backs. Why does this matter so much? Because right now the offense is uncreative and lacks any type of threat in the half pitch offense. Who is going to make the big move? With the great run on goal? I don’t expect 2010 Kuyt or Maxi or Joe Cole to be able to do that type of maneuver. Now if this was 2006 or 2007, hell yea. But this is 2010 and the creativity with the ball is just gone.

4. Chalenging for the ball: Today against Man City there were a few occasions when there were three and four passes put together and a chance was created, Milan at one point in the second half swung a ball into the box which was easily cleared by the Man City back line. Seems insignificant, but there was no effort by Ngog, Torres, or Kuyt to even move towards the ball. Kuyt seemed to be watching the game like an official would as it was swung in. That seemed to be the case for every fifty fifty ball. Every ball in the air seemed to be won by a City player and several times there wasn’t a Liverpool player making the clearance difficult for the City defender. The first half against Arsenal and entire game against City seemed to have several minute stretches where the players seemed disinterested with the game. I think it is a case of lack of creativity and the lack of Roy Hodgson’s boot up some of the players butts. To question effort is a serious accusation, but after today’s performance against City it seems a fair point to make.

5. Money: There is no money available to go and buy anybody. These leads right into point five:

6. The Club must find a new Owner: Simple as that. New people. New money. A new player here or there and boom! More creativity up front, tons more ball control, and many less chances for the other team. A couple of million pounds, Euros, dollars, pesos could go a long way in securing a few creative options and hustle players who will bust their butts trying to win ball games. So I ask you, if you know somebody with money to spend, please tell them about our club.

Cracking post that dude.
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Postby Scottbot » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:27 am

aCe' wrote:Well.. that was the first fck up right there...
I like the guy, still do, but tonight he got his tactics all wrong imo !
Everything from Agger starting at LB to Lucas partnering Gerrard in CM and Torred pairing up with Ngog upfront didnt work out for him and he failed to respond to try and change things...

4-4-2 isnt a bad system when you have the players for it... Sadly, we dont.. I simply cant see Gerrard starting at CM, cant see Kuyt playing at RM, and cant see Ngog being a partner for Torres higher up..

Good post that mate. Agree on the formation, too many are quick to dismiss 4-4-2 champ manager style BUT it can work IF you've got the right players and more importantly the right partnerships all over the pitch. Unfortunately none of our partnerships worked, Agger and Jovanovich didn't work together very well, Gerrard and Lucas is dysfunctional, and Torres (if he plays with a partner) needs to play with someone who sits deeper and allows him the freedom to roam the final third.
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Postby burjennio » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:31 am

Yep for Torres to get anything out of a 442 he needs his partner to drop off, the way Villa did in 08 or the way Gerrard does in the 4231, he struggled with every partner hes had for Spain and never looked comfortable when paired with Kuyt, Crouch or Keane for us.
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Postby jimmy brighton » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:18 am

Scottbot wrote:
aCe' wrote:Well.. that was the first fck up right there...
I like the guy, still do, but tonight he got his tactics all wrong imo !
Everything from Agger starting at LB to Lucas partnering Gerrard in CM and Torred pairing up with Ngog upfront didnt work out for him and he failed to respond to try and change things...

4-4-2 isnt a bad system when you have the players for it... Sadly, we dont.. I simply cant see Gerrard starting at CM, cant see Kuyt playing at RM, and cant see Ngog being a partner for Torres higher up..

Good post that mate. Agree on the formation, too many are quick to dismiss 4-4-2 champ manager style BUT it can work IF you've got the right players and more importantly the right partnerships all over the pitch. Unfortunately none of our partnerships worked, Agger and Jovanovich didn't work together very well, Gerrard and Lucas is dysfunctional, and Torres (if he plays with a partner) needs to play with someone who sits deeper and allows him the freedom to roam the final third.

We HAVE got the players. They've been so used to playing a different way now it aint gonna happen overnight with the new system. Things take a while to bed in. The usual player, X, is gonna pass to a player all of a sudden, 10 feet further forward or 10 feet further back! It's a big change in tactics and time will be needed for the re-adjustment
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:32 am

Scottbot wrote:
BKrimmel wrote:While everything right now isn't as horrible as it seems and we all just keep telling ourselves that it is going to get better, that there will be some exciting moments and that there is just too much pure quality on the field to be playing this poorly, I think that is a very delusional feeling. This club has six major problems:

1. Not getting a share of possession: No better shown than tonight against City. Midway through the second ESPN flashed up the possession numbers and it was 74 to 26. Seriously? You can not win games (or even earn draws) with only 26 percent of the ball. City was able to hold the ball very well after going up early one nil and was able to be patient, so it is understandable that they had more of the possession, but Liverpool couldn't even hold the ball in their own half. Then as they went forward it was embarrassingly inaccurate passes to the front men, sloppy passes in the midfield, and players trying to dribble through double teams. This led to easy City possession and chances for them on the break to score. The biggest offender is Lucas. His midfield play was horrible tonight. He would either pass backwards to a defender or Gerrard or would "pass" (using pass loosely, because I have no idea what he is doing sometimes) it forwards to a member of City. With Alberto gone, and Javier packing his bags, Poulsen better become the player to spread the ball and hold midfield, because I think Lucas is a detriment to LFC holding the ball.

2. The midfield is old: Kuyt, Gerrard, Poulsen are all 30. Milan, Maxi, Joe Cole (in early November) are 29. Javier is 26 and Lucas is 23, but you know how I feel about Lucas. The midfield should be the heart of the team, as it was in 2004-2008 (remember the best midfield in the world chant? Xabi Alonso, Momo...). Youngsters are on the club but get no first team experience behind this ancient roadblock of players. Now I am not knocking the play of Gerrard, Kuyt, Milan (who has really impressed these first two starts), Maxi, and Javier, but I don't know how much more good football these guys can put onto the field. Where is the future of the club? Where is the next Gerrard coming from? Liverpool doesn’t seem to have much growing on the farm and hasn’t made any moves for a young guy to come learn the Premier League game so he can be ready for his time. Part of this is due to the new manager, but the clock is ticking. Not making the top four would be disastrous for the future of the club this year and it seems that disaster is headed our way. When the guys coming in off the bench are as old as the starters something is wrong. These leads right into problem number 3...

3. Extreme lack of pace: Does Liverpool have anybody on the field who can get the ball on the wing and take off down the touch line? Just bust :censored: past backs? Or grab a clearing header from a corner kick and lead the counterstrike? Anybody? Torres had that amazing speed, but hasn’t showed any of it, not in the World Cup and definitely not today against City. Ngog has decent speed, Babel does too, but anyone in the Midfield? The wingers can not get past anybody in a foot race. Kuyt doesn’t seem to have the pace, Milan hasn’t showed it either, nor Maxi. (I will wait to make a judgment on Joe Cole to see some more match time on him). But if the midfield poses no threat of blowing by defenders than you can expect more tight pressing on the midfield which will lead to more turnovers and more sickness for supporters. Gareth Bale, Adam Johnson, SWP, Ashley Young, Nani, Malouda, Nasri, Arshavin, Aaron Lennon, and Walcott (just to name a few), all have that ridiculous pace that makes defenders pray that they don’t get a running start at them, which forces back off when they have the ball leaving great space. Liverpool doesn’t have any sort of speedy winger who can fly down the touch line and scares the bejesus out of backs. Why does this matter so much? Because right now the offense is uncreative and lacks any type of threat in the half pitch offense. Who is going to make the big move? With the great run on goal? I don’t expect 2010 Kuyt or Maxi or Joe Cole to be able to do that type of maneuver. Now if this was 2006 or 2007, hell yea. But this is 2010 and the creativity with the ball is just gone.

4. Chalenging for the ball: Today against Man City there were a few occasions when there were three and four passes put together and a chance was created, Milan at one point in the second half swung a ball into the box which was easily cleared by the Man City back line. Seems insignificant, but there was no effort by Ngog, Torres, or Kuyt to even move towards the ball. Kuyt seemed to be watching the game like an official would as it was swung in. That seemed to be the case for every fifty fifty ball. Every ball in the air seemed to be won by a City player and several times there wasn’t a Liverpool player making the clearance difficult for the City defender. The first half against Arsenal and entire game against City seemed to have several minute stretches where the players seemed disinterested with the game. I think it is a case of lack of creativity and the lack of Roy Hodgson’s boot up some of the players butts. To question effort is a serious accusation, but after today’s performance against City it seems a fair point to make.

5. Money: There is no money available to go and buy anybody. These leads right into point five:

6. The Club must find a new Owner: Simple as that. New people. New money. A new player here or there and boom! More creativity up front, tons more ball control, and many less chances for the other team. A couple of million pounds, Euros, dollars, pesos could go a long way in securing a few creative options and hustle players who will bust their butts trying to win ball games. So I ask you, if you know somebody with money to spend, please tell them about our club.

Cracking post that dude.

I'll second that.
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Postby pokster » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:00 am

Give Roy sometime to rebuild the team. We are currently in a transitional period. We have no funds and it is difficult to compete against the likes of Man City who could buy and replace anyone, anytime. 
A top 4 finish might not be possible due to the emergence of spurs and city. We just have to keep our heads up and keep supporting Liverpool.
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Postby In and Out » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:53 am

I can't deny the sky is blue Roy's side didn't really evolve last night they looked more like the side from last season.

Some of the posters on here who just love the sound of their own voice and only appear out of the woodwork, deem themselves 'knowledgeable' fans. Any half knowledgeable fan will know, that taking over a string of players and instilling your footballing philosophy on the side will take more than a few 90min games ??? This is a transitional period for us and many are expecting title challengers by the sounds of it, with players like Kuyt, N'gog and Lucas in the side you shouldn't be expecting too much. Although above 7th could be a possibility if you don't play these players week in week out. Roy won't IMO, he isn't that silly.

The one positive I did take from last night was (even that it may have been forced) was the formation change. Granted it didn't come off but unless it's given ample time to produce we won't be able to step out of the negative ways we have been under the last 6 years. It was good to see that a manager has BALLS, that he'll trust his players and give them an opportunity to flourish. Like I said, it didn't pay off but at least Roy has the balls to be more proactive and if that means picking up a few defeats here and there so be it.

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Postby Octsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:09 am

I thought we should be bit smart and delay aquaman's departure untill cole's ban.
now masch is being a baby, we lose cole, we lose aquaman. no longer have benny, nor riera.
if gerrard is injured or something we are screwed.
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Postby Owzat » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:22 am

In and Out wrote:with players like Kuyt, N'gog and Lucas in the side you shouldn't be expecting too much. Although above 7th could be a possibility if you don't play these players week in week out. Roy won't IMO, he isn't that silly.

Shocker, you named exactly the same set of players who always get the blame despite there being SEVEN other outfield players who contributed no more and some a lot less - or something negative like Skrtel.

Maybe the fact is Woy isn't the saviour at all, perhaps he has changed one or two things but it is still much the same faces and outcome. The "time will heal all" theory is in the optimists handbook, but even Rafa managed to get two draws out of citeh last season and not get spanked! Worst ever Premiership start by the way, first time we've conceded three since 31/10/09 (we only did so twice last season, all before November) and we last lost by three clear goals back in March 2008 at Old Trafford (also 0-3)
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Postby Octsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:14 am

Owzat wrote:
In and Out wrote:with players like Kuyt, N'gog and Lucas in the side you shouldn't be expecting too much. Although above 7th could be a possibility if you don't play these players week in week out. Roy won't IMO, he isn't that silly.

Shocker, you named exactly the same set of players who always get the blame despite there being SEVEN other outfield players who contributed no more and some a lot less - or something negative like Skrtel.

Maybe the fact is Woy isn't the saviour at all, perhaps he has changed one or two things but it is still much the same faces and outcome. The "time will heal all" theory is in the optimists handbook, but even Rafa managed to get two draws out of citeh last season and not get spanked! Worst ever Premiership start by the way, first time we've conceded three since 31/10/09 (we only did so twice last season, all before November) and we last lost by three clear goals back in March 2008 at Old Trafford (also 0-3)

well, man city did completed a double against mancs 2 seasons ago, a double against chelsh1t last season, won a couple against gooners.

how is roy diff from rafa?
well, if we stop losing against lesser sides like wigan, stoke, villa, wolves etc etc

roy will have achieve much more than rafa.
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Postby pokster » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:51 am

Blaming one or two players will not help the cause at all. So what if we lose Mascherano and Aquilani? We have lucas, gerrad, cole, poulsen (Four Senior Central Midfielders). And if we lose Mascherano, we will have the funds to get one or two quality signings.
If Kuyt is that bad, then why is he in the Dutch first team? He played on the right too for Holland.

Seems like people forget that football is a team sport. Its not Badminton or Tennis.
Takes time for the team to get used to Roy's ideas. If you were to have lived with your girlfriend for 5 years and suddenly you find someone else new and definitely you will eed to get used to her habits and stuffs..

Its just 2 games fellas. Not the end of the world...





:D :D :D :laugh:
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Postby Benny The Noon » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:31 am

My Assestment so far

Formation - 4-4-2 , totally the wrong formation to play last night for a few reasons . 1. We dont have the players to play the formation , no true left or right midfielders with both Jovanovic and Kuyt preferring to play in a right or left forward role supporting one striker , Gerrard sits too deep and becomes ineffective for the majority of the game , Torres doesnt work with another high forward alongside him . 2. Man City went in with three in the middle and they were always going to swamp and out number our two there no matter who the two were - It meant Kuyt or Jovanovic tried to come inside to help out but that left the wide areas exposed . We needed someone else in the middle to help out it was clear as day to see. 4-4-2 is a formation that is rarely used by any of the top teams and is only realy used by the teams looking to not get beat . Unfortunatly its one of Hodgsons favoured formations but that needs to change - we work best as a 4-2-3-1 .

Tactics - We sat very deep and at numerous times we looked like we had parked the bus and had 11 men behind the ball with no counter attack threat at all - very sad to see . We tried to be solid but were vunerable in all areas on the pitch and we had no cutting edge , no creativity and no imagination .

Squad - Extra weak and thin in a lot of areas - Left back , Creative midfielder, pace in wide areas , striker and commanding cb . Last night we were prob missing only one player who will form our first 11 for the season and that was Cole . We have neither the first 11 nor the squad to challenge for at top 4 squad but we dont have the finances to add to the squad unless players are sold .

Possession - For the first number of games are percentage of possesion has been below the opposition and that is something we have never seen for a number of years - 35% it was last night and 40 something % at home against arsenal . Even when we werent playing well over the last couple of season we at least managed to get hold of the ball and hold it - last night we couldnt even get hold of it and when we did it was gone quickly

Creating Chances - The amount we have created over the last couple of games has been very low , Hart had to make two quick saves last night but bar that nothing else , against arsenal we didnt create many , same against the turkish outfit . There is no point having torres when we arent creating anything for him .

Passion - Last night there was none - nothing from the players , no one trying to lift the players , no one screaming at players in encouragment - we look totally flat .

Manager during the game - Only saw him rise from bench a couple of times and then i just saw him say " come on " and clap his hands while mancini was always up trying to direct things - there didnt seem to be any direction coming from our manager and he looked a little lost when things werent obviously working . When changes did come it was too late and game was lost . Hodgson looked like a rabbit in the headlights as i think he suddenly realised the situation he is in with the squad and the lack of option and the inability to buy options without having to sell one of the best players we have .

We are going to have one hell of a rollercoaster season and i hope hodgson realised his error in formation and sticks with the 4-2-3-1

Pepe 

Johnson
Agger
Carra
Aurelio or new left back

Lucas/Poulsen
Gerrard/Lucas

Kuyt/Maxi/Cole
Jovanovic/Maxi/Cole

Cole/Gerrard/Pacheco

Torres/Ngog

Stick with that an we may be able to compete in most games and if we keep them all fit we may sneak a CL place but unlikely IMO .

Hodgson needs our support now more than ever before in the previous years - he is onto a hiding to nothing with our owners and he has his hands tied . No one knows how much he has to do with players like Aquilani leaving on loan which is a massive mistake .

Good luck Hodgson - you will need it . Make us proud . YNWA
Last edited by Benny The Noon on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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