Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

So here we are, we've almost come full circle in the discussion after four years of Rafa's management (I suppose you would go full circle in a rotation debate) and I was just wondering where people see the question going from here.

For whatever reason (and if I'm honest it's just a feeling more than anything else) I think Rafa will still be in charge for next season, so what can we expect, what would we like to see, will it be more of the same, if so why, why not, and how come?

It's kind of turned into one of those arguments where everyone can claim to have been kind of right. Those who bemoaned the over-rotation have seen the manager pledging to reduce the changes as the season has gone on due to us "only being involved in two competitions" and reduce it he has. Not as much or to the extent that some would like to see, but he has certainly picked a more settled team and formation. We're almost at the point infact where pretty much most people could guess his preferred first eleven I would have thought. The upswing in the performances of the team has allowed the anti-rotation brigade to point to the corresponding reduction in changes and claim vindication. Similarly, those who stuck by Rafa through thick and thin are coming out swinging, their man repaying their faith and belief with a string of good performances from the team.

For my part, I've made no secret of my dislike of the rotational system over the last four seasons. I've denounced the "delayed gazelle" theory as utter nonsense, and have made it clear that I think the whole idea when practiced to the extent which Rafa has, ("Rafa style") has killed us in the league each season. Such has been my disappointment with the aparent stubborness of the manager and his refusal to come to what to my mind is an obvious conclusion, I have openly called for him to be replaced at the end of the season, regardless of whether we win the Champions League.

Somebody asked me recently though, "what if he cuts down on the rotation, what then?". Recently he even said words to the effect that if you rotate less, effectively picking the team on merit, then the players in the team work harder to ensure they stay in it. I absolutely couldn't have put it better myself, I have been saying the same thing for the last four years. Nor could I have extolled any better than he the virtues of the understanding bordering on telepathy, which Torres and Gerrard have devloped over the last month. Could it be he has seen if not THE light, perhaps some light at least? If he has, should he stay for another crack at the league?

My feeling is that he has partially begun to accept that 'Rafa style" will never in it's purest form deliver the maximum points which a bunch of players could reasonably expect to gain in the English Premiership. If and when he does get another crack next season, I hope and prey that he remembers some of the things he is saying now, and the effect it is having on the team.

What do other posters think. Would they like to see a new campaign begun like the others have begun, with similar numbers of changes? Would they like to see a reduction next season, maybe an increase? Are they just happy to "trust" in Rafa and take the view that he knows best, to effectively abstain in the debate? If he does stay next season, is it reasonable to expect a title challenge at some point during the season? Is it just a question of more time, more money or less upheaval, and is rotation actually irrelevent to how well we'll go in a new campaign? One thing is certain. With each league win, as we claw our way up the greasy pole towards the leaders you can be sure that we are going to get to a point where we are left thinking, if only.

It's funny that some of us who have openly questioned the manager and his methodology have copped a bit of stick over the last couple of weeks, despite the fact that he is now having success by doing almost precisely what we implored him to do. It's an interesting question this rotation thing, (well I think it is anyway) and like it or lump it, while Rafa is the manager it will always be debated.

[Judge]

mick what is a queation ?

[bigmick]

mick was is a queation ?

Surely you mean "what" is a queation Jugdgie  A queation is when somebody with a speach impediment makes something out of seemingly nothing mate. Jeez I thought everyone knew that 

[Judge]

mick what is a queation ?

Surely you mean "what" is a queation Jugdgie  A queation is when somebody with a speach impediment makes something out of seemingly nothing mate. Jeez I thought everyone knew that 

what do you mean 

[JoeTerp]

I think that you would HAVE to say that you WANTED Rafa back next if he wrote you a letter about the light that he had seen (if in fact he has seen one, if in fact there is even a light to see     ) Give the amount of credit you put towards our seasons outcome due to rotation, the posibilities of this team and the manager without it are quite endless. shi.te I really need to get to this case paper for strategic management class that is due in a few hours, maybe I will finish this post later, not sure if it was going anywhere anyway

[Judge]

i think mick used to be a roundabout salesman, before he turned to the sex trade

[Yari7]

Liverpool under Rafa have traditionally been very strong during the second half of the season. Could this be due to Rafa's rotation policy which keeps the players fresh?

I don't think rotation is a bad policy. It just needs players to come in and step up to the plate. Rotation is not the reason why Liverpool are not challenging for the title this season. The reason is a poor spell in from December (starting after the 2-1 Derby win) to the end of January.

Also, rotation or not, we don't have enough match winners in our team. If we had more matchwinners, maybe 4-5 of those 11 draws we have had this season would have been wins.

Rotation is not the problem. The fact we don't have matchwinners asides from Gerrard and Torress is the problem.

[bigmick]

Liverpool under Rafa have traditionally been very strong during the second half of the season. Could this be due to Rafa's rotation policy which keeps the players fresh?

I don't think rotation is a bad policy. It just needs players to come in and step up to the plate. Rotation is not the reason why Liverpool are not challenging for the title this season. The reason is a poor spell in from December (starting after the 2-1 Derby win) to the end of January.

Also, rotation or not, we don't have enough match winners in our team. If we had more matchwinners, maybe 4-5 of those 11 draws we have had this season would have been wins.

Rotation is not the problem. The fact we don't have matchwinners asides from Gerrard and Torress is the problem.

It's a good post Yari and many of your points have been debated at length previously. Would I be right in thinking then that next season you would be quite happy to see similar numbers of changes to the team that we saw at the start of this season?

Also, you say that the reason we are not challenging for the title is a poor spell between December and the end of January. In your opinion, were we in the title race upto that point, and what do you think caused that bad spell?

[Yari7]

Liverpool under Rafa have traditionally been very strong during the second half of the season. Could this be due to Rafa's rotation policy which keeps the players fresh?

I don't think rotation is a bad policy. It just needs players to come in and step up to the plate. Rotation is not the reason why Liverpool are not challenging for the title this season. The reason is a poor spell in from December (starting after the 2-1 Derby win) to the end of January.

Also, rotation or not, we don't have enough match winners in our team. If we had more matchwinners, maybe 4-5 of those 11 draws we have had this season would have been wins.

Rotation is not the problem. The fact we don't have matchwinners asides from Gerrard and Torress is the problem.

It's a good post Yari and many of your points have been debated at length previously. Would I be right in thinking then that next season you would be quite happy to see similar numbers of changes to the team that we saw at the start of this season?

Also, you say that the reason we are not challenging for the title is a poor spell between December and the end of January. In your opinion, were we in the title race upto that point, and what do you think caused that bad spell?

I beleive that before that poor spell, we were still in the title race. During that spell, I remember we had 4 draws and we lost 2 games (West Ham and Aston Villa). We have drawn 11 games this season. More than any other team I beleive. The issue is converting atleast 3-5 of those draws into wins. That would have been another 6-10 points on the board. All the big teams go through bad patches but that was more than a bad patch, It was a complete loss of form and that is what has stopped us from mounting a serious title challenge this season.

Why do we draw so many games? Well, to me that would be because we don't have enough match winners. Asides from Gerrard and Torres, we don't have players that can help chip in with goals or take a game by the scruff of the neck and produce a peice of individual brilliance to turn a draw into a win. We need a right winger and/or another striker that can get goals.

As for rotation, I dont disagree with the policy of rotation, though I do beleive that Rafa takes it overboard sometimes. I rememebr him making 6-8 changes for some premiership games just for the sake of it. 

My idea of rotaton would be to keep the core of your squad which is your central defence partnership, your central midfeild partnership and your main striker. Then you can rotate players such as your wing backs or wingers if neccesary. Rotation does have its benifits as it keeps players fresh. Maybe 3-4 changes maxumim. Rotation is  acgood concept. it is just a case of getting it right. Though it is not in my opinion the reason for us not mounting a serious challenge.

If we didn't drop so many points during that Dec-January spell, we would be reaping the benifits of the rotation policy right now.

Or another method of keeping players fresh would be to try to bury games earlier against the lower teams and rest your star men like Gerrard and Torres after 65-70 mins to keep them fresh.

Rotation has it's place, but Rafa needs to get it right. At times, he has got it right and at other times, he has got it wrong.

[JoeTerp]

a lot of people will say we were out of it when United beat us at home, and I disagree it was lost when we didn't get a win in January in the league, if we just would have been on a reasonable pace:               If we just could have done this instead (trying to make it reasonable)
City     D                             L
Wigan   D                         W
Boro     D                         W
Villa     D                          D
West Ham L                       D

No Doubt tht would still would have been considered a blip, but it would have been a controlled and somewhat managed one. With 4 more points, we are within 6 with a real shot at a comeback with 9 to go and 2 games against the two teams ahead of us.

[account deleted by request]

I am still a believer in sensible rotation. Both from a tactical point of view and a formation viewpoint, I am willing to accept that a few changes of personnel from game to game is not only accepable but desirable if we are to challenge for the title. What I don't (and never have) believed in is rotation Rafa style, where 5 maybe 6 players are changed game to game.

I also believe that players must earn their place in the team, not just be happy to wait till its their turn. (Something else that Rafa now seems to agree with me on now) Players who are playing well should be kept in the team until they either show signs of fatigue or have a bad game. No more resting players in form and full of confidence, while we give someone out of form and low on confidence a chance. If players need to regain form and confidence play them in the reserves.

More worrying than rotation for me is the experiments with different formations, sometimes it seems as if he is only changing the formation to fit in the players he wants to play, rather than for technical or tactical reasons. (Crouch on the wing for example)   

I believe that Rafa is starting to see the light (which I never thought he would) and may continue with a more sensible approach to rotation next season. If he does, I see no reason why we can't mount a challenge or even win the league, and with the addition of an assistant I would be happy for him to have one more go at cracking the prem.

While rotation has taken all the headlines and most of the blame for our inconsistant season I believe that motivation (or lack of)has been the main reason for most of our failings. We play Wigan at home and maybe some of our foreign players arn't quite up for the game in the same way as they would be for a glamorous european encounter. Which is why I would like Rafa to get an assistant to help in preparing the team next season. Someone who can get a little closer to the players and help them to reach their potential week in week out, rather than just on the big occasions.

I have been reading that Hicks plans to offer Rafa a new contract at the end of the season, I hope not as if we fail again in the league next year it will be time to say thanks and goodbye.

[Judge]

I am still a believer in sensible rotation.

you mean by that one or two players, not half the team etc

which is what lfc used to do in the 70s and 80s s@int

[JoeTerp]

maybe we need to play more local lads in the wigan games at home. imagine Spearing and Gerrard in the engine room together with Darby and Carra Lindfield with Torres Hammill on the wing. Be pretty hard to forget what your playing for when you got half the team from the city out there. just kidding, I would find it impossible for them to forget it with just Carra out there, I don't think that is an issue and if it is one its on a deep sub conscious level that you would need a sports psychologist for. I mean everybody on the team is a pro, for the 90 minutes that your on the pitch, what else do you have to do but win the game?

[WhIpLaSh]

This has probably been debated at length in the past (so maybe a concensus has been reached) but why have we not seen Crouch and Torres used more together?

You'd think the height and aerial prowess of Crouch would work wonders with Torres running off of him? Or am I missing something here?

(Don't even know if this is the right thread to bring this up in, soz)

[account deleted by request]

maybe we need to play more local lads in the wigan games at home. imagine Spearing and Gerrard in the engine room together with Darby and Carra Lindfield with Torres Hammill on the wing. Be pretty hard to forget what your playing for when you got half the team from the city out there. just kidding, I would find it impossible for them to forget it with just Carra out there, I don't think that is an issue and if it is one its on a deep sub conscious level that you would need a sports psychologist for. I mean everybody on the team is a pro, for the 90 minutes that your on the pitch, what else do you have to do but win the game?

I don't think so Joe, for example for years there have been famous "homers", players that play well in the home games but never turn up when playing away games. ie Di Canio  was notorious for only playing well against top sides or at home.

I don't think its beyond reason that some foreign players may see the league as just another game, and can't motivate themselves to the level of a big match, even at home and with our support.

It would also explain why small clubs seem to have the monoply of the places in the Fa cup this season. Barnsley.... hardly the most glamorous of sides beating Liverpool and Chelsea?  Top teams have one eye on Europe as you can see if you look at results from games after European games.

Toulouse
Next match Draw
Toulouse
Next match win
Porto
Next match Draw
Marseille
Next match Draw
Besiktas
Next match Draw

One win after our first five European matches, and then again two of our 3 defeats were just before and just after the "huge" game against Marseille (when even Rafa took his eye off the league) and maybe its no coincidence that our defeat to Barnsley was the match before we played Inter?


Maybe its also more of a motivating (or fear) factor that now we are struggling to obtain 4th place and possibly losing our European place the performances have improved, rather than before when qualification seemed a foregone conclusion and it was just a case of how many points we would finish behind the league champions?