Liverpool FC Forum

[Yari7]

Just heard this on lfc tv , it's a pre match interview with Rafa. It made me smile anyway

Question: We have to play the Gunners three times within a week and before that we have to play Everton and Manchester United. How much of a test will that be for your team?

Rafa's response: The key for these games will be our squad. So I will not rotate but I will change players!

Yer gotta laugh

Well, technically, by changing players, he is rotating. And he has to if we are looking to win all 3 games.

[LFC2007]

It depends massively on our activity in the transfer market this summer. If we can get the right quality players in, I've absolutely no doubt he'll play those players more often than not if they're performing, as he is now doing with Torres, and as with Mascherano. We don't have complete players in the wide areas, have only one up top, and at left back we're lacking also. As such, these positions get rotated more often. Incomplete players aren't as a adaptable, and are more inconsistent as a consequence. The players I'm thinking of are; Pennant, Benayoun, Crouch, Kuyt, Voronin (incomplete in every way), Kewell, Babel, Riise and Aurelio. If we had a more complete natural left winger, example - Vicente, David Silva, a solid left back with ability - hopefully Insua, and either i) A second forward or ii) A top quality right winger, then I think you'd see that 2-3 player rotational average come to fruition (it's not miles off at the moment ffs). I don't think you'd see many strange formations if we had the right quality, it's the players I mentioned above that lead to indecision, inconsistency and an inability to finish teams off IMO.

All the factors mentioned by Bob re focus and concentrtion are equally as important, we've been uncharacteristically lacking in focus from set pieces at times, and that in particular has cost us.

I refer Big Mick here.

[holylamb2006]

Looks to be working at this stage of the season !

[Yari7]

A point I would like to make is that in the 4 years that Rafa has been here, due to his success in the Champions League he has established us as a major force in European Football. Because of this, we will now find it easier then ever under Rafa, to attract top players in the summer.

While Benetiz, since he has been here has had money to spend, he had problems I think, in attracting players to the club as top class players usually prefer to go to United or Chelsea.

When we needed a right winger, Benetiz was forced to spend £7 million on Jermain Pennant, a player that Man Utd or Chelsea wouldnt touch. When we needed strikers, we had to settle for players such as Peter Crouch, Dirk Kuyt and Craig Bellamy, players whom the top clubs like Man Utd and Chelsea would never touch.

Anyway, my point is that now, Liverpool are once again established as a force in Europe and because of this, we will be able to attract top quality players. I am sure that Rafa will rotate less one he is able to get more top quality player in his team.

[bigmick]

I've seen the argument a couple of times LFC and don't really buy it TBPH. The basic premise seems to be that if a player has less talent than the really big players (who we probably all agree are Torres, Gerrard etc etc) then  he is less able to adapt to different opposition and formations, and therefore "needs" to be rotated more, so you can bring some other bloke in who can cope with that particular game. I guess if I'm understanding it right, if you need a bloke down the right who runs around a lot you pick Kuyt, whereas if you need a bloke who puts lots of crosses in, you pick Pennant. In an ideal world you'd buy a bloke call Pennuyt who is like a combo of the two, who wouldn't need rotating so much.

Now obviously I don't disagree with buying better players who have more attributes, that bit is obvious. Equally, I don't disagree that anything which allows us or indeed makes us (as only a fool right now would rotate Toirres for example) rotate less is very much a Beamanesque leap in the right direction. The bit I don't gewt on with is the bit about "horses for courses" applying in all but extreme circumstances to lesser players. I can see for example that playing Crouch against two five foot centre halves is an obvious exception, but in reality I actually think that lesser players, once they have made the team should be rotated LESS not more.

Kuyt is a good example, what is the point of rotating the bloke? He has no sharpness anyway either of thought or deed, what he brings to the team is bags of effort, balance to the pattern and a kind of "what you see is what you get" consistency. He's a fit as a Stradivarius, and as we have nobody else who remotely plays down the right like him I wouoldn't rotate him at all. I'd either play him on merit, or I'd drop him (the obvious exception being that game where Crouch plays against the two midgets, maybe I'd play Pennant and mass rotate in that one). Similarly the full backs. If you take the view (which I do) that Aurelio is better than Riise then play him. Let the Brazilian finally get some games under his belt, some confidence.

Now all that is not to say that I would never rest aurelio, of course I would. When you rest/rotate him, then by all means play Riise. What I dont buy though is this notion that we are playing Sunderland one week and you think that Riise might be able to control Dean Whitehead or whoever the feck plays wide right for them, then the following week we play Derby and some other nobody cuts inside a bit more and they concede more free-kicks around the edge of the box so we play Aurelio. I don't buy it at all. I would even go so far as saying it's b0ll0cks .

[RedBlood]

i think the more key players rafa gets like reina, carra, agger(when hes fit), mascherano, alonso, babel(when he develops), gerrard, torres the less he will rotate and when he does the improved quality will mean we are more likely to win even when top players are rested..... rotation is a must when you are challenging for trophys in all competitions but torres should not be dropped for a league game then play in the carling cup
i agree with rotation but our strongest available team should always start in the league and champs league

[LFC2007]

I've seen the argument a couple of times LFC and don't really buy it TBPH. The basic premise seems to be that if a player has less talent than the really big players (who we probably all agree are Torres, Gerrard etc etc) then  he is less able to adapt to different opposition and formations, and therefore "needs" to be rotated more, so you can bring some other bloke in who can cope with that particular game. I guess if I'm understanding it right, if you need a bloke down the right who runs around a lot you pick Kuyt, whereas if you need a bloke who puts lots of crosses in, you pick Pennant. In an ideal world you'd buy a bloke call Pennuyt who is like a combo of the two, who wouldn't need rotating so much.

Now obviously I don't disagree with buying better players who have more attributes, that bit is obvious. Equally, I don't disagree that anything which allows us or indeed makes us (as only a fool right now would rotate Toirres for example) rotate less is very much a Beamanesque leap in the right direction. The bit I don't gewt on with is the bit about "horses for courses" applying in all but extreme circumstances to lesser players. I can see for example that playing Crouch against two five foot centre halves is an obvious exception, but in reality I actually think that lesser players, once they have made the team should be rotated LESS not more.

Kuyt is a good example, what is the point of rotating the bloke? He has no sharpness anyway either of thought or deed, what he brings to the team is bags of effort, balance to the pattern and a kind of "what you see is what you get" consistency. He's a fit as a Stradivarius, and as we have nobody else who remotely plays down the right like him I wouoldn't rotate him at all. I'd either play him on merit, or I'd drop him (the obvious exception being that game where Crouch plays against the two midgets, maybe I'd play Pennant and mass rotate in that one). Similarly the full backs. If you take the view (which I do) that Aurelio is better than Riise then play him. Let the Brazilian finally get some games under his belt, some confidence.

Now all that is not to say that I would never rest aurelio, of course I would. When you rest/rotate him, then by all means play Riise. What I dont buy though is this notion that we are playing Sunderland one week and you think that Riise might be able to control Dean Whitehead or whoever the feck plays wide right for them, then the following week we play Derby and some other nobody cuts inside a bit more and they concede more free-kicks around the edge of the box so we play Aurelio. I don't buy it at all. I would even go so far as saying it's b0ll0cks .

The clear difference in opinion is that; Whereas you believe our squad is as good as any other in the league, and that fielding a line-up that is as similar each week as is possible (within the confines of drastic loss of form/injury) will bear great benefits in the long-run. I don't believe our squad is as good as any other in the league, and believe that a lack of quality in certain areas (on the wings/left-back/forwards) is leading to indecision, increased rotation, strange formations and a greater level of inconsistency in our form as a result. It's been shown that on the whole we've stuck with a fairly consistent spine(Reina/Carra/Hyypia/Gerrard/Mascherano/Torres) in the league, and that most rotation has occurred in the positions I cited earlier(and in cup games), for me it's no coincidence that the areas rotated more often are the weakest areas of our squad. If they performed to the same level as this core of players then they would play more frequently. Can you honestly say if we had Patrice Evra for example that you believe Rafa would rotate him as much as Aurelio and Riise? Would you say the same if we had Nani or Ronaldo as wingers? I don't think he would, because as has been shown, in the main if they're good enough they will play. On the adaptability question, what I'm actually saying is this; top quality players are more adaptable. Look at Man U, Ronaldo can play right wing/left wing/up top. As can Rooney, as can Nani, as can Tevez, with varying degrees of effectiveness, but still at a far higher level than our corresponding players. Why? because they possess a greater array of abilities. They are more complete players, and play more often as a result. We don't have complete players in these positions, and they fail to stake their place in the team as a result. Your position is; if our players in these positions aren't good enough then why rotate them? Like I said, because they tend to have spells of good form that are often short-lived and that's not to do with rotation (Riise's had spells of 5 to 6 games as a  starter without impressing consistently). Babel/Riise/Aurelio, are examples. I don't think playing one or the other more regularly will get much more out of them as individuals, or indeed for the team as a whole.

[bigmick]

I agree with almost every word. If we had Patrice Evra then I don't think he would rotate him as much as he does Riise/Aurelio no. Similarly, if we had Ronaldo or/and Nani on the wings I don't think he'd rotate them as much as Pennant/Babel etc either. The two points where we are going to have to agree to differ, are as you say in how good we think our squad is (although I wouldn't go as far a saying I think it's as good as any in the league, I  do think it's easily strong enough to mount a challenge, look at Chelsea), and in whether or not rotating these lesser players actually does any good or not.

My contention is that someone like kuyt needs all the help he can get. He hasn't got the talent of the better players, so the confidence of regularly starting, the feeling wanted etc etc are needed to allow him to perform somewhere near his best. A Gerrard or a Torres has enough talent to miss a game or two and come back into the fold still a top player, blokes like Kuyt haven't to be frank.

Whichever, whatever and wherever though, it's a small point and one I'm happy to let be. I'm just happy that we have found/stumbled upon a formula which seems to be working for us. It not only means we've won seven from seven, it also has allowed the pro Rafa/rotationists to claim it was all worth it as the "delayed gazelle" is now kicking in, while us anti's are obviously feeling vindicated as what we've said all along seems to be coming true. I'm sure though we can all agree that to whichever degree anybody was right or wrong, if we can transport this kind of philosophy into next season then we will go very close to winning the league. I think we'd do it with this bunch of players, some don't. No doubt though we'll sign a couple of new blokes in the Summer so that when we do actually challenge, we can all claim we're right again     

[Sabre]

I'd like to ask you something to clarify LFC2007

I don't believe our squad is as good as any other in the league, and believe that a lack of quality in certain areas (on the wings/left-back/forwards) is leading to indecision, increased rotation, strange formations and a greater level of inconsistency in our form as a result

Do I understand right if I think you're saying that lack of quality brings more rotation and indecision?

I'm not sure of that. Let's assume you now have a pure right winger who's world class. Let's assume you have a left winger who's very good aswell. Then you have Gerrard Mascherano and Alonso for choices in the middle. In that scenario of lots of quality, you'd get rotation from Rafa any week of the month next season.

Even if you have 2 world class wingers, Rafa would find too reckless to play two strikers and two pure wingers with little defending against strong teams. That would lack balance in some games, but would be a good choice to open very deep defences in some others. Even with lots of quality in the team, Rafa would find that in some games Gerrard could do a lot of harm in the right, not as a winger, but as a right midfielder.

So, as long as there are a lot of games midweek and we're into many competitions, I think we'll inevitably see Rafa rotating we like it or not. That doesn't mean I agree on every starting eleven Rafa picks, btw.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Benitez can't help himself rotating, and I personally think it's the amount of quality we have which allows him to rotate to the extent he does. Lets leave it to just the league, which is were WE ALL WANT him to pick his best 11. Reina isn't rotated because we don't have a quality replacement. Gerrard isn't rotated because we have nobody with his ability. Torres isn't being rotated anymore because Benitez know if we want to a game, Torres has to play.

But with Carra, Agger, Skrtel and Hyypia, Benitez will be able to rotate his centre halves because of the quality coming into the side. Finnan has been rotated alot this season because of the quality of Arbeloa coming in. Alonso, Mascheranho or Lucas is being dropped because there's so much quality to replace them.

Left back, Riise and Aurellio are being rotated because there as as each other.

So I'm not saying having strenght in depth is a bad thing, but it does allow Benitez to over rotate. If he had a squad the size of Aston Villa (smallest in the league) then he wouldn't be allowed to rotate as often. That's why Benitez over rotates because the size of our squad allows him to. Likewise Chelsea and United also constantly make changes because their squad allows it.

[LFC2007]

I'd like to ask you something to clarify LFC2007

I don't believe our squad is as good as any other in the league, and believe that a lack of quality in certain areas (on the wings/left-back/forwards) is leading to indecision, increased rotation, strange formations and a greater level of inconsistency in our form as a result

Do I understand right if I think you're saying that lack of quality brings more rotation and indecision?

I'm not sure of that. Let's assume you now have a pure right winger who's world class. Let's assume you have a left winger who's very good aswell. Then you have Gerrard Mascherano and Alonso for choices in the middle. In that scenario of lots of quality, you'd get rotation from Rafa any week of the month next season.

Even if you have 2 world class wingers, Rafa would find too reckless to play two strikers and two pure wingers with little defending against strong teams. That would lack balance in some games, but would be a good choice to open very deep defences in some others. Even with lots of quality in the team, Rafa would find that in some games Gerrard could do a lot of harm in the right, not as a winger, but as a right midfielder.

So, as long as there are a lot of games midweek and we're into many competitions, I think we'll inevitably see Rafa rotating we like it or not. That doesn't mean I agree on every starting eleven Rafa picks, btw.

Of course, we'd still have customary levels of rotation affording for a degree of tactical leeway which Rafa likes.

However, If we had the quality of winger we've so desired, I have no doubt they'd have started more like 18-20 league games by now as opposed to the 10-12 that ours have made.

I don't think we'll sign two top class wingers this summer, I think we may sign one (a left winger), a left back for sure, and possibly a forward. I think we'll ship a few out too.

If we sign a top quality (attacking) player, they should be able to adapt to some of Rafa's tactical changes (certainly much more so than our current crop), a point I made in my earlier post. It's still possible to make those tactical changes without changing the personnel, which therefore doesn't constitute rotation. I think Bad Bob mentioned how it would be ideal to find a player who could fill the 'second forward' role and one of the positions out wide. They'd be difficult to find I've no doubt, but that's what top quality should get you.

[JoeTerp]

BigMick, you have said a couple of times now that you like what rafa is doing (playing nearly same team same formation) but you don't like what he is doing (you don't agree with the team he has settled on) I wonder what team you would have wished he did settle on and if you think it would be a good idea to rafa style rotate for the United game. I know that might sounds crazy because we have won 7 in a row, but Fergie will have a whole week to familarize himself with how we play in this formation and attack its weaknesses (which it certianly has). Just because we have been getting the results does not mean that we have been bossing the performances of late, I felt like there were lots of shakey periods against Inter and if Zlatan or Cruz had brought some shooting boots it might have been a different game and FFS reading seemed to deal with it at anfield pretty well. I think Babel has been found on down the left and against a team like United, he might look really bad. Kuyt on the right is going to be of ZERO threat to Evra, so nothing is going to hold him back from bombing up the flank all game long, it will just be up to Kuyts workhardsmanship to stop him.  Also, Gerrard in the supporting type role aginst United hasn't looked to hot, and even though torres is on a great stretch of games right now, he might become isolated and left on an island without a partner against United's back 4.  I would go with Pennant Gerrard Macha Riise with Crouch and Torres to make sure we don't sit back to much and go there for a win to make a statement. I think a 4-5-1 at old trafford could get too negative, and the width and pace of united might beat us out in the end.

probably more appropriate for when the United match thread comes out but will they have to play foster in goal against us as well?

[bigmick]

Joe I'm largely unconvinced by the 4-5-1 because although it does allow us to get our best players on the pitch (Alonso is the main beneficiary obviously) we don't really have the players to make it work against really good teams I don't think. The problems (and I'm not exactly telling anybody anything they don't know already here) are mainly in the wide areas, but also and I suppose slightly less obviously that neither Masherano nor Alonso get up enough to support Gerrard/Torres for my liking. That's not to say it can't be done or should I say the problems are insumountable, but that is the weakness of the system as I see it. I would have thought Man Utd will try and pin both Alonso and Masherano back by dropping Rooney/Tevez into the hole all the time, and effectively force Gerrard into isolation and then by definition take Torres out of the game as well.

As to how I'd approach it, well it's a tough one TBPH. In this particular fixture Alonso and Masherano will be needed anyway to sit, and i'd have a little think about switching wings for Babel. He's got the pace to cause any defence problems, and I think the worry of him being there might just pin back Evra a tad. On the other side, you've obviously got the threat of Ronaldo, and for that reason I'd bring in Riise to play in front of Aurelio.

We're going to have our work cut out to get anything from the game, they are the best team in the division in my opinion, but it's not beyond us provided we play well. I think it's crucial that we maintain the ability to hurt them going forward though, and however we do it we absolutely must make sure we maintain that lifeline between Torres and Gerrard. I take us to score first and get a point, provided we don't get silly with the selection.

[JoeTerp]

I can see why you think moving Babel on the right makes sense because his left foot is nearly useless, although the last two games at least he has made the attempt to reach the byline, but he still isn't any good at it and surely United would know to steer him down to the byline at all costs knowing that he would be of no danger.

But on the right, he left foot is just as usless, and therefore he only move will most likely be to try and beat evra to the line and get in a cross. well he already isn't very good at that, or at least hasn't show that he is yet, so he might be even less usefull on the right, because any angle he makes for a shot is going to be much more acute than the angle he makes for himself on the left, with both of them being just as predictable to the opposition.

Although I can see the benefits possibly of playing a settled side and formation (especially against the "lesser 16"), if it has as many weaknesses as the one we have been playing I think it is very important for the team to have a backup plan side and formation that it is also used to playing so nobody can plan for the perfect way to stop us, and if they seem to have us figured out, bam a sub here and a sub there and before you know it we are bossing them

but then again we haven't had any success against United in the league under Rafa so far, and this is a different period so I suspect he might just give it a go and see what happens, because whatever tactiful plan he has put together before to stop them hasn't worked out too well.

[maguskwt]

from what i've seen from rafa so far... rafa rotates mainly because of tactical reasons and also because of his philosophy to use the whole squad believing that by doing so the players will remain physically at a higher level and not suffer burn outs....

now the top players in our squad gets rotated less simply because they can adapt to better tactical situations... whereas the lesser players gets rotated more because they are more one dimensional and to get the most out of a tactical situation (that's probably how rafa sees games... as a tactical problem to solve) he plays different players... for example crouch for aerial threats and kuyt for hard running etc...

the problem I have most with rafa is that for me he over-analyses lesser teams in the premier league... teams that are just out to kick you and stop you from scoring... and that's where we get funny formations and line-ups...

another thing that is an issue with our squad is that maybe perhaps we have too many players that aren't just suited for those kind of dirty tactics... and the player that comes to mind is alonso... no doubt he is a world class talent and he shows what he can do in alot of our european ties where he has the time and space to impose his tactical game... but in the premier league... he's been pressured, he's been kicked and his tactical play breaks down... some other players include babel... who often retreats from 50-50 challenges and gets negated playing in the premier league as well as aurelio whose range of skills is very impressive but he couldn't show them fully in the premier league...

so that is where the current formation 4-2-3-1 kind of compensates for these... it is a more forgiving line up as compared to the 4-4-2 and with it rafa can still rotate his players and still not have too many negative effects... which is mainly caused by one-dimensional players and players not suited for the physical nature of the premier league...