Rotation, - The 2008/09 season question.

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby maguskwt » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Well, I'll state the obvious bit first: I want to see us turn the most of the draws we've seen this season into wins next season.  We've lost fewer matches than the Mancs but have racked up 11 draws to date.  Turn most of those into wins and, all other things being equal, we'll challenge for the title.

So, the tricky question becomes, what's caused all the draws and how do we fix that problem?  The main contenders for an explanation seem to be:

1) Lack of cohesion due to rotation Rafa-style
2) Squad not quite good enough (need some additional attacking quality)
3) Players not motivated properly (lack of killer instinct)
4) Injuries
5) Off-field distractions
6) Too much focus on the Champions League

Well, what's "as obvious as the nose on my face" to me is that all of the above have played some role in the points we've dropped this season.  It follows that all of them need to be addressed to some degree...which is of course another way of saying (again) that it's not just about rotation.

Of the above list, there's nothing much that can be done about #4, so let's focus on the rest.  Hopefully #5 will not be a factor come next season and hopefully its resolution will address problem #2 during this summer's transfer window (provided Rafa spends the money well, like he did with Torres and Mascherano). 

That leaves rotation (#1), player motivation (#3) and CL emphasis (#6) in Rafa's hands to address.  Personally, I'm very comfortable with his current approach to rotation and hope he sticks with it.  I think we are seeing greater team cohesion at the moment and I think the competition for places is currently quite healthy (except in a few chronic positions).  On player motivation, perhaps an assistant will help somewhat--although I'm not as convinced as some that Pako was the master-motivator and Rafa's the aloof tactician.  I also think motivation comes from the players themselves, from top quality competitors like Gerrard, Torres, Carragher, Masch and Reina, who set the tone with their passion and skill.  And, of course, winning is a habit that provides the greatest motivation (as we're seeing) so we need to get out of the blocks quickly next year, get on a sustained winning run and reap the rewards.  In a nutshell, then, I think that the manager can only motivate a team so much and then it's in their own hands.

And, as for the balance with the CL, I don't think there's much wrong in Rafa's approach to be honest.  We've actually done much better this year in getting results both before and after Europe and I think that will continue as the squad improves.  Yes, he'll rest players with a view to the European match on the horizon but--since Portsmouth--he hasn't done that with Gerrard, Torres or Carragher (before anyone brings up Reading, they all started).  Add more quality to the team this summer (#2) and we'll be in better shape to keep results ticking over in the league whilst also saving something for the European campaign.  Because, bottom line, we want and need to do well in both competitions.  Rafa cares about them both and so do the vast majority of supporters and that means that, sometimes, you need to take some risks with team selection. (And that goes in both directions, as Rafa proved with the Marseille match at Anfield, where he played some squad players in what should have been a fairly straightforward home match against limited opposition).

It's fine margins that have led to draws instead of wins this season and, now that we're showing what we're capable of again, I don't think radical surgery is required...including the most radical surgery of all: replacing the manager.

top post bob...

another thing is rafa is sometimes guilty of over-strategising against lesser clubs in the league... that needs to stop...
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Postby Ola Mr Benitez » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:51 pm

Yari7 wrote:Liverpool under Rafa have traditionally been very strong during the second half of the season. Could this be due to Rafa's rotation policy which keeps the players fresh?

Yes, Im sure we do have a better 2nd half of the season because our players are fresher than other clubs have not rested as many players.. 

However as someone else mentioned earlier there is no point in being fresh (for the premiership) if you are alread out of it.

The way Rafa does things, we are weakest through rotation at the start of the season when our oponents are at their strongest.  Then in the second half of the season we are strongest when our opponents are staring to have problems. It would surely be better to have your "weakened" team playing against everyone else was at their weakest to be able to stay in touch.. and be competitive till the end of the season.

This is why we are so strong in the Champions League. BUT I want to win the league.

That was so much clearer in my head!!
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Postby Igor Zidane » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:49 pm

Look, he's always going to rotate to varying degrees, whatever season you want to look at . My problem is  not rotation ,no sir me and sir alex agree on one thing atleast . My problem is formation changes in conjunction with rotation at the same time . We've shown that you can still have a good run of winning games and rotate whilst keeping the same formation. What totally fecks us up imo opinion is rotating players whilst at the same time changing the formation . Rafa has come across an effective fomation which accomodates our best players . He has shown that he can rotate players within this formation without upsetting the equilibrium .Better quality players will again be needed for next season ,and if he sticks to this formation and rotates FERGIE STYLE , lets say we will be a better and more confident side for it.
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Postby Toffeehater » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:14 pm

I may have been a rafa's neck all this season but i think 1 more season would only be fair , 60 million budget tops no more sh!te signings and rafa deliver the league pls or at least within 3 points of it will show that we are close to challenging for it
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Postby Bad Bob » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:16 pm

maguskwt wrote:top post bob...

another thing is rafa is sometimes guilty of over-strategising against lesser clubs in the league... that needs to stop...

Good point, mate.  I'm probably guilty of lumping that issue in with rotation, to be honest, but it's worth highlighting on its own.  Some of it is down to team selection.  If we take Rafa's words at face value about resting Torres against Birmingham at home, for instance, we hear that he was worried that Torres wouldn't find space against a well-organized team that would sit deep.  Now, many of us think that Rafa was extracting the michael somewhat with those comments but, if genuine, they do indicate that he does overthink the team selection on occasion.  But, I think it crops up far more in his deployment of different formations.  The set-up against Newcastle (away) and at Reading was not ideal, to say the least and, IMO, those kind of tactical adjustments weren't necessary given the opposition.

My hope is that now that he has hit on a winning formula with this 4-2-3-1 formation that we stick with it.  If it should stop working for whatever reason, I hope it's back to 4-4-2 and sticking to that, with a largely settled spine filling the slots in their natural positions.
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Postby Bad Bob » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:18 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Look, he's always going to rotate to varying degrees, whatever season you want to look at . My problem is  not rotation ,no sir me and sir alex agree on one thing atleast . My problem is formation changes in conjunction with rotation at the same time . We've shown that you can still have a good run of winning games and rotate whilst keeping the same formation. What totally fecks us up imo opinion is rotating players whilst at the same time changing the formation . Rafa has come across an effective fomation which accomodates our best players . He has shown that he can rotate players within this formation without upsetting the equilibrium .Better quality players will again be needed for next season ,and if he sticks to this formation and rotates FERGIE STYLE , lets say we will be a better and more confident side for it.

Fergie-style! :D

Quality post, Igor! :nod
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Postby Owzat » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:26 pm

maguskwt wrote:another thing is rafa is sometimes guilty of over-strategising against lesser clubs in the league... that needs to stop...

That very much looks like one of my views, you not been copying now have ya?  ???

Maybe if Rafa did keep it simple and put out the best XI we'd win more, maybe lose more as well, but end up with more points. We also go out against teams set on defending and can't break them down, then plan B is one even the opposition are familiar with and left so late it doesn't even have time to kick in. Criticise Josie for being a big mouthed, arrogant preek, but he made changes early and didn't dally.

Question for everyone on here, which of our players do you think Josie would not even consider picking and would shove out the door as soon as opportunity presented itself? I'm thinking the likes of Pennant and Riise, Voronin and probably a few more. Why? Because he'd know they aren't good enough to start and there wouldn't be a fat lot of point bringing them on so they'd be surplus to requirement
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Postby club_Levis » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:01 pm

Owzat wrote:
maguskwt wrote:another thing is rafa is

Question for everyone on here, which of our players do you think Josie would not even consider picking and would shove out the door as soon as opportunity presented itself? I'm thinking the likes of Pennant and Riise, Voronin and probably a few more. Why? Because he'd know they aren't good enough to start and there wouldn't be a fat lot of point bringing them on so they'd be surplus to requirement

Crouch, Kuyt certainly...
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Postby muzodziwa » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:10 pm

I am not sure if rafa "has seen the light" or he is making major changes to his rotation philosophy in football management. I see rafa as a tactician, and he does change with the environment in which he is working inorder to achieve the objective. I also see rafa as a man who has immersed himself into the club and its history and hence sees his role only as a facilitator to greater success rather than the originator of the success; he is only proud to be associated with the club and its success.

What would make this man more proud than lifting number 19; he is not an egoist like some managers who have come into souless teams and achieved success at the backdrop of a bottomless pit of financial resorces; he does not command respect at boardroom level accorded to some managers who are trumpeted as the best in the world; but one thing for certain is this man has captured the hopes and aspirations of the supporters and winning the premiership would be the ultimate achievement for him.

Rafa does not see himself, the owners, or any player as the ultimate beneficiaries of success achieved by the club, but rather the supporters. Rafa will not stop at anything in making this team a premiership winning side;

1. he started by challenging the owners to back up their promises with action and hence we got torres; and in the aftermath brought to light the folly of the owners in the famous "i am focussed on coaching my team".
2.He parted company with his most trusted friend and management partner Pako.
3.He moves Steven Gerrard from "his favoured position" to a role that is more suited to the team than to "Stevie".

The above tells me the nature of the man; THE CLUB COMES FIRST.

With the seemingly good relations between him and the Hicks, i think there will be at least 2 quality additions in the summer, which will affect the "quality of rotation". The formation we are employing necessitate very good full backs and i mean the Patrice Evra type, without which i will see no change in the level which we rotate our full backs. With Agger coming to full fitness i see the centre backs being rotated as we switch competions with the preferred Agger/Cara combination for the league. Obviously the midfield will be rotated between Alonso/Mash/Leiva. The need for defensive cover will see Kuyt being preferred at R/W unless a player of quality becomes available and even if so still i see Kuyt in Rafa's plans and hence this wingers will be again rotated for tactical reasons. I still agree with Saint, there is still need of a creative second striker as we will change formation in order to compete on all fronts next season.

Overally i think rafa does change as the situation arises, and depending on the our business in the summer we will be seing more people added to the "spine of the team" hence when an etoo comes for torres we will not all mourn "rotation". :D
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Postby Toffeehater » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:19 pm

muzodziwa wrote:I am not sure if rafa "has seen the light" or he is making major changes to his rotation philosophy in football management. I see rafa as a tactician, and he does change with the environment in which he is working inorder to achieve the objective. I also see rafa as a man who has immersed himself into the club and its history and hence sees his role only as a facilitator to greater success rather than the originator of the success; he is only proud to be associated with the club and its success.

What would make this man more proud than lifting number 19; he is not an egoist like some managers who have come into souless teams and achieved success at the backdrop of a bottomless pit of financial resorces; he does not command respect at boardroom level accorded to some managers who are trumpeted as the best in the world; but one thing for certain is this man has captured the hopes and aspirations of the supporters and winning the premiership would be the ultimate achievement for him.

Rafa does not see himself, the owners, or any player as the ultimate beneficiaries of success achieved by the club, but rather the supporters. Rafa will not stop at anything in making this team a premiership winning side;

1. he started by challenging the owners to back up their promises with action and hence we got torres; and in the aftermath brought to light the folly of the owners in the famous "i am focussed on coaching my team".
2.He parted company with his most trusted friend and management partner Pako.
3.He moves Steven Gerrard from "his favoured position" to a role that is more suited to the team than to "Stevie".

The above tells me the nature of the man; THE CLUB COMES FIRST.

With the seemingly good relations between him and the Hicks, i think there will be at least 2 quality additions in the summer, which will affect the "quality of rotation". The formation we are employing necessitate very good full backs and i mean the Patrice Evra type, without which i will see no change in the level which we rotate our full backs. With Agger coming to full fitness i see the centre backs being rotated as we switch competions with the preferred Agger/Cara combination for the league. Obviously the midfield will be rotated between Alonso/Mash/Leiva. The need for defensive cover will see Kuyt being preferred at R/W unless a player of quality becomes available and even if so still i see Kuyt in Rafa's plans and hence this wingers will be again rotated for tactical reasons. I still agree with Saint, there is still need of a creative second striker as we will change formation in order to compete on all fronts next season.

Overally i think rafa does change as the situation arises, and depending on the our business in the summer we will be seing more people added to the "spine of the team" hence when an etoo comes for torres we will not all mourn "rotation". :D

top post mate , u shud post more
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Postby Cables » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:22 pm

They have started, AFC Liverpool, adopt these as your second team http://www.parrysongs.co.uk/af.....tory3.html
http://afcliverpool.proboards5.....gi#general
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Postby muzodziwa » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:28 pm

Thanx toffeehater, its just that at times i will be out of the country in Africa and i will not be having easy access to an internet connection.
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Postby bigmick » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:47 am

Igor Zidane wrote:Look, he's always going to rotate to varying degrees, whatever season you want to look at . My problem is  not rotation ,no sir me and sir alex agree on one thing atleast . My problem is formation changes in conjunction with rotation at the same time . We've shown that you can still have a good run of winning games and rotate whilst keeping the same formation. What totally fecks us up imo opinion is rotating players whilst at the same time changing the formation . Rafa has come across an effective fomation which accomodates our best players . He has shown that he can rotate players within this formation without upsetting the equilibrium .Better quality players will again be needed for next season ,and if he sticks to this formation and rotates FERGIE STYLE , lets say we will be a better and more confident side for it.

In fairness Igor though some have tried to make it so, the rotation debate has never just been about how many changes there are on the team sheet from one game to the next. My signiture has been there for long enough and I've always said it's about consistency of selection. This means the positions players play in, the team itself and the formation. We've seen in the past Gerrard playing on the left wing to accomodate Bolo Zenden in central midfield. It may only be one change to the team (Zenden in for someone else) but it has a huge impact ont he way we play if you ask Gerrard top play wide left. Similarly the games this season where Crouch has played on the wing. I know Tompkins says in his "super player'  essay that "all centre forwards should be able to play on the wing" but we know this to be utter b0ll0cks, and not for the first time where he's concerned.

As for Rafa rotating to varying degrees, I hope if he's here next season that he does. If he tries to play the same team in every single game we'll not qualify for Europe never mind the Champions league. I do like the "Fergie style" comparison though. "Fergie style" it seems to me is minimal rotation in the first half of the season while you build up momnetum and while the players are fresh anyway. This is followed by considerably more rotation in the third quarter of the campaign, and then no doubt practically no rotation in the final push for the title. Sounds good to me.
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:56 am

muzodziwa wrote:I am not sure if rafa "has seen the light" or he is making major changes to his rotation philosophy in football management. I see rafa as a tactician, and he does change with the environment in which he is working inorder to achieve the objective. I also see rafa as a man who has immersed himself into the club and its history and hence sees his role only as a facilitator to greater success rather than the originator of the success; he is only proud to be associated with the club and its success.

What would make this man more proud than lifting number 19; he is not an egoist like some managers who have come into souless teams and achieved success at the backdrop of a bottomless pit of financial resorces; he does not command respect at boardroom level accorded to some managers who are trumpeted as the best in the world; but one thing for certain is this man has captured the hopes and aspirations of the supporters and winning the premiership would be the ultimate achievement for him.

Rafa does not see himself, the owners, or any player as the ultimate beneficiaries of success achieved by the club, but rather the supporters. Rafa will not stop at anything in making this team a premiership winning side;

1. he started by challenging the owners to back up their promises with action and hence we got torres; and in the aftermath brought to light the folly of the owners in the famous "i am focussed on coaching my team".
2.He parted company with his most trusted friend and management partner Pako.
3.He moves Steven Gerrard from "his favoured position" to a role that is more suited to the team than to "Stevie".

The above tells me the nature of the man; THE CLUB COMES FIRST.

With the seemingly good relations between him and the Hicks, i think there will be at least 2 quality additions in the summer, which will affect the "quality of rotation". The formation we are employing necessitate very good full backs and i mean the Patrice Evra type, without which i will see no change in the level which we rotate our full backs. With Agger coming to full fitness i see the centre backs being rotated as we switch competions with the preferred Agger/Cara combination for the league. Obviously the midfield will be rotated between Alonso/Mash/Leiva. The need for defensive cover will see Kuyt being preferred at R/W unless a player of quality becomes available and even if so still i see Kuyt in Rafa's plans and hence this wingers will be again rotated for tactical reasons. I still agree with Saint, there is still need of a creative second striker as we will change formation in order to compete on all fronts next season.

Overally i think rafa does change as the situation arises, and depending on the our business in the summer we will be seing more people added to the "spine of the team" hence when an etoo comes for torres we will not all mourn "rotation". :D

Good post fella.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:49 pm

Just heard this on lfc tv , it's a pre match interview with Rafa. It made me smile anyway :D

Question: We have to play the Gunners three times within a week and before that we have to play Everton and Manchester United. How much of a test will that be for your team?

Rafa's response: The key for these games will be our squad. So I will not rotate but I will change players!

Yer gotta laugh :laugh:
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