Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

My question is, are we so close you could touch it, or do we need a rethink? Is it just a player here and there, or is it a seismic tactical shift?

I have to say I'm not asking for potential signings at all. I'm not talking about personel at all, this is a philosophical football question. I'm asking, are we on the right track and more of the same will win us the title, or do we need to have a re-jig?

I'll give you my opinion so you know where I'm coming from. I don't think we're that close. I know many will say "but we're second you fecking idiot" and we are, but this is an unusual year as far as the Premiership is concerned. Normally, a team which has drawn as many as we are wouldn't be second, we'd be third or fourth. Quite simply, we need to win more football matches, and the question is why aren't we? Is it just one of those things, is it simply that we are a player or two light, or are we really not quite attacking enough?

My feeling is that firstly we don't commit anywhere near enough players into the box on a regular enough basis to win lots of games. Equally, we don't set up with enough intent, nor do we hunt the wins with enough voracity.

My hope is that if Rafa is still the manager next season, he stops referring back to his triumphs at Valencia. He won the title there with was it 77 points and 75 points, courtesy of lots of draws. You will NEVER in a million years these days win the Premiership with those totals. People have described the Mancs run as 'unbelieveable' but it is anything but. This is quite simply what you have to do to win the title. You have to win, win, win again and then win once more for good measure.

This is one of the reasons I disagree when people say there has been massive progress. We may have got better at what we are trying to do, but the philosophy we are following is STILL flawed, and whats more will never IMHO be successful in England. We are STILL too circumspect after five years IMHO.

What do you reckon?

[kazza]

Replace a couple of players that did not work out (especially left-back) and buy an excellent creative striker/ playmaker and play Gerrard at right mid and we would have won at least five of our draws this season. Not that far away (ahead).

[aCe']

i think ur probaly right in saying that we havent progressed in terms of mentality or footballing philosophy during rafa's reign... To be perfectly honest i dont think we have the players that allow us to play with the formation we currently use which is always a worry especially since the manager seems to think otherwise...
too many flaws and errors of judgment everywhere you look and sometime we just look like a team void of ideas when going forward...

in short yes... we need a change of mentality... a couple of new players or so.. a new formation.. more importantly it seems, a new manager

[loopyliverpool]

I concur! To be challenging properly (not hopefully) I feel we need two decent full backs and two world class wide attacking players on either flank, I think the spine of the team is world class.

[stmichael]

The main issue has to be addressed is still quality in the wide areas. The rest of the team is ok in my opinion but we haven't had a decent wide player since Mcmanaman. A top quality attacking fullback would also be a priority, plus another striker. I'm talking about three top drawer players as we quite simply have to go for quality over quantity from now on.

Changing the manager is not necessarily the answer. If Rafa goes then you're immediately questioning the futures of all the Spanish contingent in the squad. Another manager then comes in, wants to get rid of half the squad and we're back to square one with another 3-5 year plan. At the same time, United just add one or two £25m+ players to what they've already got (I know they're after Benzema) and we're falling even further behind.

[bigmick]

Replace a couple of players that did not work out (especially left-back) and buy an excellent creative striker/ playmaker and play Gerrard at right mid and we would have won at least five of our draws this season. Not that far away (ahead).

I kind of agree with this (particularly the Gerrard on the right bit, I can't understand why we haven't given it a go again). The creative second striker thing isn't by any means a new idea and I certainly didn't dream it up, but I ask would Rafa find a place in either his heart or his team for an Arshavin type, or even a Berbatov to play off Torres and in behind. This is kind of where I'm coming from when I say it's a philosophical thing. Have we got it in us to ditch a bit of the hard to beat thing, and to gamble on more creative line-ups and players?

Can we win enough games playing like we currently do, even if we do replace some of the poorer players?

[aCe']

The main issue has to be addressed is still quality in the wide areas. The rest of the team is ok in my opinion but we haven't had a decent wide player since Mcmanaman. A top quality attacking fullback would also be a priority, plus another striker. I'm talking about three top drawer players as we quite simply have to go for quality over quantity from now on.

Changing the manager is not necessarily the answer. If Rafa goes then you're immediately questioning the futures of all the Spanish contingent in the squad. Another manager then comes in, wants to get rid of half the squad and we're back to square one with another 3-5 year plan. At the same time, United just add one or two £25m+ players to what they've already got (I know they're after Benzema) and we're falling even further behind.

do u trust Rafa to bring in the right players ? i.e the players we really need ?!

wouldnt surprise me one bit if his summer shopping list is topped by a certain Gareth Barry yet again and no right wingers or decent fullbacks !

[stmichael]

do u trust Rafa to bring in the right players ? i.e the players we really need ?!

That should really read "do i trust rafa to be allowed to bring in his first choice targets" because up to now he certainly hasn't been allowed to. If he had, our first team would now contain Daniel Alves, Simao, Vidic and Gareth Barry. The first two of those would have elevated our side to a completely different level in an attacking sense imo.

[Scottbot]

Gerrard on the right with Arshavin playing behind Torres and a big man on the bench as a change-up would have done it for me.

[Scottbot]

The main issue has to be addressed is still quality in the wide areas. The rest of the team is ok in my opinion but we haven't had a decent wide player since Mcmanaman. A top quality attacking fullback would also be a priority, plus another striker. I'm talking about three top drawer players as we quite simply have to go for quality over quantity from now on.

What he said...

[red_guy]

The main issue has to be addressed is still quality in the wide areas. The rest of the team is ok in my opinion but we haven't had a decent wide player since Mcmanaman. A top quality attacking fullback would also be a priority, plus another striker. I'm talking about three top drawer players as we quite simply have to go for quality over quantity from now on.

What he said...

Same here....

[Owzat]

The main issue has to be addressed is still quality in the wide areas. The rest of the team is ok in my opinion but we haven't had a decent wide player since Mcmanaman. A top quality attacking fullback would also be a priority, plus another striker. I'm talking about three top drawer players as we quite simply have to go for quality over quantity from now on.

Changing the manager is not necessarily the answer. If Rafa goes then you're immediately questioning the futures of all the Spanish contingent in the squad. Another manager then comes in, wants to get rid of half the squad and we're back to square one with another 3-5 year plan. At the same time, United just add one or two £25m+ players to what they've already got (I know they're after Benzema) and we're falling even further behind.

do u trust Rafa to bring in the right players ? i.e the players we really need ?!

wouldnt surprise me one bit if his summer shopping list is topped by a certain Gareth Barry yet again and no right wingers or decent fullbacks !

oh come on, everyone knows Barry can play LB and some have even suggested, because he's left footed, hecan play a left-sided midfield role.

I enjoy transfer windows, the speculation and movement of new players. Well at least I used to, but when you see so much dross come in, sense it at the time and get proved right, it becomes almost unbearable.

I'd be tempted, if a new manager came in, to tell him he couldn't sell *list of our better players* and that he had to focus on addressing our weaknesses as much as try to create his own team. I wouldn't want him making wholesale changes, in a way I think that is a weakness with Rafa in that he chops and changes, without being able to improve players or get the best out of them he then discards them. I mean how does that work? Rafa proved when he took over the squad that, with a few changes, the squad Houllier left could be turned into European Champions. Now we change strikers like some women change their minds. Were Keane, Cisse, Baros, Pongolle, Crouch, Bellamy, Fowler and Morientes, to name a few strikers, given a chance to prove their worth to the team or squad?

I'd also tell the manager that he can buy from his previous club(s), but only on approval. Must be pretty close as to whether more of Rafa's Spanish League signings have worked out or been sold. Nunez, Josemi, Morientes, Luis Garcia and Sissoko are just a few names spring to mind with a Spanish connection that aren't here anymore. Torres, Alonso, Reina, Arbeloa, Riera and Aurelio are a few that are (excluding any kids)

Rafa needed to sort the FBs and wide players, he hasn't. Houllier didn't either. Surely that isn't a good sign, especially given how long each (has) had?

[stmichael]

everyone knows Barry can play LB and some have even suggested, because he's left footed, he can play a left-sided midfield role.

100% agree. Barry can play several positions which Rafa craved for in the summer. Had he been backed over the signing then Keane and Riera probably wouldn't have come and we could have saved £10-12m and bought another decent player with that money.

[Bad Bob]

I'd also tell the manager that he can buy from his previous club(s), but only on approval. Must be pretty close as to whether more of Rafa's Spanish League signings have worked out or been sold. Nunez, Josemi, Morientes, Luis Garcia and Sissoko are just a few names spring to mind with a Spanish connection that aren't here anymore. Torres, Alonso, Reina, Arbeloa, Riera and Aurelio are a few that are (excluding any kids)

So, we're going to tell a Spanish manager how to shop in Spain?  Yeah, tell us another one.

Look, Rafa's made some poor transfer decisions but when it comes to shopping in Spain, I'd give him as much leeway as he wants because he's done brilliantly.  Let's take a look:

1) Torres, Reina and Alonso are top quality signings that have improved us no end and would not be here right now were it not for Rafa

2) Riera, Arbeloa and Aurelio are solid signings and have played their part in making us very good team (despite the doom and gloom, you don't sit second in the league at the end of February for being muck).   They're not world class but they play their roles.  I think must people would happily see them replaced if true world class players were brought in in their positions but they'd still be very handy lads to have in the squad.  Good signings all.

3) Garcia and Sissoko.  I see you make note of the fact that they're no longer here as a way of saying they weren't good signings but that's a very narrow view.  No way we would have won the Champions League in 05 without Garcia and no way we would have reached the final in 07 without Sissoko.  Both had their faults and both had dips in form towards the end of their time but let's not make out that they were rubbish because they certainly were not.  Good signings.

4) Morientes.  A unbridled flop to be sure but hindsight is well and truly 20/20 in his case.  I remember virtually everyone being excited when we signed him and with good reason: he was a striker with an excellent pedigree in Spain and in France.  He was a class player that looked like he would improve us to know end.  I simply refuse to take anyone seriously who claims they 'knew' he wouldn't cut it in England because you just can't know that kind of thing.  Berbatov looks a similar player in many ways and he's managed just fine, for instance.  A good signing at the time...it's too bad it never worked out but I would never criticize Rafa for going for him.

5) Josemi.  Not good enough clearly.  But, Rafa's first signing in a new league and he seemed to have a bit of the yard dog about him so Rafa probably thought he'd suit the English game.  He didn't but he did provide Finnan with some competition and, perhaps more crucially, provided important RB cover after Rafa converted Carragher back to his proper position (a move that has been so natural and successful that, ironically, Rafa never gets credit for it; but read Carra's bio to see how appreciative he is).  A poor signing in hindsight but not nearly as bad as people like to make out.

6) Nunez.  It always winds me up when Nunez is brought up as a way to criticize Rafa's signings.  He was part of the Owen deal.  We were losing our best striker for a value far below his true worth but Madrid decided to chuck in a fringe player to sweeten the pot.  Is it any wonder he was mediocre?  It's not like they were going to throw in Ramos was it?  Besides, we had no proper wide players on that flank so why not take the lad?  If he had pulled a Riera and provided balance it would have been a savvy bit of business.  As it was, he pulled up with a major injury in his first training session and never really found his feet as a result but it's ridiculously harsh to blame Rafa for all that.

So, when you really look at it, Rafa has done a fantastic job of shopping in Spain (as you would expect).  He's had the pull to bring in a top name like Torres, when the Mancs and Arsenal couldn't prise him away from AM.  And, he's had the savvy to seek out the hidden gems--the Alonsos, Reinas, Garcias and Sissokos--that have played such a big role in our recent successes.  No, where Rafa's struggled in the transfer market has been in England (Pennant, Bellamy, Keane,)...on the continent he's done pretty well and in Spain especially, he's been kwalitee.

[kazza]

I'd also tell the manager that he can buy from his previous club(s), but only on approval. Must be pretty close as to whether more of Rafa's Spanish League signings have worked out or been sold. Nunez, Josemi, Morientes, Luis Garcia and Sissoko are just a few names spring to mind with a Spanish connection that aren't here anymore. Torres, Alonso, Reina, Arbeloa, Riera and Aurelio are a few that are (excluding any kids)

So, we're going to tell a Spanish manager how to shop in Spain?  Yeah, tell us another one.

Look, Rafa's made some poor transfer decisions but when it comes to shopping in Spain, I'd give him as much leeway as he wants because he's done brilliantly.  Let's take a look:

1) Torres, Reina and Alonso are top quality signings that have improved us no end and would not be here right now were it not for Rafa

2) Riera, Arbeloa and Aurelio are solid signings and have played their part in making us very good team (despite the doom and gloom, you don't sit second in the league at the end of February for being muck).   They're not world class but they play their roles.  I think must people would happily see them replaced if true world class players were brought in in their positions but they'd still be very handy lads to have in the squad.  Good signings all.

3) Garcia and Sissoko.  I see you make note of the fact that they're no longer here as a way of saying they weren't good signings but that's a very narrow view.  No way we would have won the Champions League in 05 without Garcia and no way we would have reached the final in 07 without Sissoko.  Both had their faults and both had dips in form towards the end of their time but let's not make out that they were rubbish because they certainly were not.  Good signings.

4) Morientes.  A unbridled flop to be sure but hindsight is well and truly 20/20 in his case.  I remember virtually everyone being excited when we signed him and with good reason: he was a striker with an excellent pedigree in Spain and in France.  He was a class player that looked like he would improve us to know end.  I simply refuse to take anyone seriously who claims they 'knew' he wouldn't cut it in England because you just can't know that kind of thing.  Berbatov looks a similar player in many ways and he's managed just fine, for instance.  A good signing at the time...it's too bad it never worked out but I would never criticize Rafa for going for him.

5) Josemi.  Not good enough clearly.  But, Rafa's first signing in a new league and he seemed to have a bit of the yard dog about him so Rafa probably thought he'd suit the English game.  He didn't but he did provide Finnan with some competition and, perhaps more crucially, provided important RB cover after Rafa converted Carragher back to his proper position (a move that has been so natural and successful that, ironically, Rafa never gets credit for it; but read Carra's bio to see how appreciative he is).  A poor signing in hindsight but not nearly as bad as people like to make out.

6) Nunez.  It always winds me up when Nunez is brought up as a way to criticize Rafa's signings.  He was part of the Owen deal.  We were losing our best striker for a value far below his true worth but Madrid decided to chuck in a fringe player to sweeten the pot.  Is it any wonder he was mediocre?  It's not like they were going to throw in Ramos was it?  Besides, we had no proper wide players on that flank so why not take the lad?  If he had pulled a Riera and provided balance it would have been a savvy bit of business.  As it was, he pulled up with a major injury in his first training session and never really found his feet as a result but it's ridiculously harsh to blame Rafa for all that.

So, when you really look at it, Rafa has done a fantastic job of shopping in Spain (as you would expect).  He's had the pull to bring in a top name like Torres, when the Mancs and Arsenal couldn't prise him away from AM.  And, he's had the savvy to seek out the hidden gems--the Alonsos, Reinas, Garcias and Sissokos--that have played such a big role in our recent successes.  No, where Rafa's struggled in the transfer market has been in England (Pennant, Bellamy, Keane,)...on the continent he's done pretty well and in Spain especially, he's been kwalitee.

And those players that were sold were often sold at a profit and if sold at a loss, the loss was minimal. Good point about the English players which lets me think that perhaps they don't really understand each other both linguistically and more importantly culturally, rather than bad judgement in spotting talent.