Liverpool FC Forum

[zarababe]

Actual costs on Keane was 1 million

Please explain that one to me Taff

we paid 11 and got 10

there.

      

[dawson99]

It worked out, after all said and done was we paid 11 and they would pay us 10, so we lost one million, and everything else written off. (as far as i can tell anyways, we could have lost all of tit as far as i know)

[taff]

Actual costs on Keane was 1 million

Please explain that one to me Taff

we paid 11 and got 10

there.


And Football isn't the Real World. Wait and see, hope Rafa gets the contract he deserves and let him win us this title we want and need.

Erm no, we payed 18 million didn't we but we've only given Spurs 10 million so far, we still owe them 7 million by my calculations, or was that 7 million written off by Spurs?

Appearance fees etc. Twas explained by Leon in the Keane thread.  Sorry if its not the stick you want to beat Rafa with.

Rafa also said it was good business at the time.

[heimdall]

Actual costs on Keane was 1 million

Please explain that one to me Taff

we paid 11 and got 10

there.


And Football isn't the Real World. Wait and see, hope Rafa gets the contract he deserves and let him win us this title we want and need.

Erm no, we payed 18 million didn't we but we've only given Spurs 10 million so far, we still owe them 7 million by my calculations, or was that 7 million written off by Spurs?

Appearance fees etc. Twas explained by Leon in the Keane thread.  Sorry if its not the stick you want to beat Rafa with.

Rafa also said it was good business at the time.

Hey I hold my hands up then, I'm never too proud to admit when I'm wrong. In that case we didn't loose that much money but we still lost face and it still leaves us with only one striker for the rest of the season.

[taff]

Babel Kuyt Ngog and Torres makes four

We play 451

keane wasnt scoring.

When I found out about the money it softened the deal IMO.  Rafa acted fast, ok might have been wrong or it might just be strong leadership.  But the fact was he wasnt scoring and this is from the start of the season.

[kazza]

then you and every other person on here sucking on Rafa's dong

Point is when a player didn't work they were moved on not at a great loss to the club. Every manager buys players that do not work out.

[Sir Roger]

Babel Kuyt Ngog and Torres makes four

We play 451

keane wasnt scoring.

When I found out about the money it softened the deal IMO.  Rafa acted fast, ok might have been wrong or it might just be strong leadership.  But the fact was he wasnt scoring and this is from the start of the season.

Does anyone have the stats for kuyt, babbel, benayoun and ngo goalscoring this season up to where keane was lashed please?

[sgs]

IMO it comes down to quality in-depth, cus to some extent that impacts the philosophy as well. Just look across at the manc and the quality and esp variety of options...It gives the manager the freedom to have a real go at it, every single game, with the confidence that the role players give u the same quality output, if not more, as in the case of Park or Tevez or Giggs. It is such freedom that enables a manager slowly blood young players like Rafael or Wellbeck, in the manner that Wenger for instance could never do.

In the end for me, it comes down to getting the Hicks/Gillette issue sorted and providing the manager with the resources to compete for world class talent. Jose Mourinho summed it up best when he said he raised the bar in the EPL, which forced the Manc to elevate themselves. We still have not...

[JC_81]

My question is, are we so close you could touch it, or do we need a rethink? Is it just a player here and there, or is it a seismic tactical shift?

I have to say I'm not asking for potential signings at all. I'm not talking about personel at all, this is a philosophical football question. I'm asking, are we on the right track and more of the same will win us the title, or do we need to have a re-jig?

I'll give you my opinion so you know where I'm coming from. I don't think we're that close. I know many will say "but we're second you fecking idiot" and we are, but this is an unusual year as far as the Premiership is concerned. Normally, a team which has drawn as many as we are wouldn't be second, we'd be third or fourth. Quite simply, we need to win more football matches, and the question is why aren't we? Is it just one of those things, is it simply that we are a player or two light, or are we really not quite attacking enough?

My feeling is that firstly we don't commit anywhere near enough players into the box on a regular enough basis to win lots of games. Equally, we don't set up with enough intent, nor do we hunt the wins with enough voracity.

My hope is that if Rafa is still the manager next season, he stops referring back to his triumphs at Valencia. He won the title there with was it 77 points and 75 points, courtesy of lots of draws. You will NEVER in a million years these days win the Premiership with those totals. People have described the Mancs run as 'unbelieveable' but it is anything but. This is quite simply what you have to do to win the title. You have to win, win, win again and then win once more for good measure.

This is one of the reasons I disagree when people say there has been massive progress. We may have got better at what we are trying to do, but the philosophy we are following is STILL flawed, and whats more will never IMHO be successful in England. We are STILL too circumspect after five years IMHO.

What do you reckon?

Tell me if I'm talking bollox Mick, but are you not making a bit of a u-turn on your previous stance that major reconstruction wasn't needed and that with losing mass rotation we'd be pretty close to, if not there, in terms of winning the league?

[GYBS]

someone saying rafa should sacked cause he lost 6 mil on the keane deal ! ? In that case taggert should of gone years ago when he lost 13 odd mil on veron while winning nothing for 3 years . Then how much money did maureen loose over the years ? ! You cant compare a football club to a business . And changes for next season ? Well a creative player plus a back up striker . If rafa goes add a world class keeper to that for starters .

[red37]

The truth is Liverpool were close to skint, we had to sell Heskey just to pay off Houllier (who we had been foolish enough to give a new contract to )* So selling Owen and getting our HIGHEST PAID PLAYER off the books probably looked much more attractive then than in hindsight.

Feelings of Deja Vu there reading that part.... 

* Except that sentence - i don't subscribe to the theory that it could be a mistake to renew Rafa's terms. Not quite yet at this stage anyway

- (Should he decide to comply, that is of course)

[bigmick]

Your talking b0ll0cks John I'm not talking about a major reconstruction of personel here. The thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent with people talking about signings in Spain, whether or not Ronaldo would have been a success under Rafa and the like, but my point is about mindset.

Just to steer it back to where it started (and if anyone is interested I'll certainly revisit points raised here or anywhere else) it's about do we go for wins enough both in our set up and our play. It is my firmly held belief that if you asked a complete neutral to watch one of our matches, and then watch a match is which say the Mancs played, he would notice some obvious differences from an attacking sense. Leaving out the personel for a second, he would notice because it is absolutely blindingly obvious that the Mancs commit far more men into the box when they're attacking than we do. He would also notice that whereas we often ask our wide midfielders to be effectively advanced fullbacks, the first line of wide defence, they ask their wide midfielders to create. They indulge those players attacking instincts, encourage them to commit forward with seemingly much less emphasis on shape and tracking back. They'd notice that the Manc's full backs often get ahead of the play, and are trusted to return as and when they can. They'd also notice that they don't play with a sitter in the purest sense, Carrick often turning up in and around the edge of the box to shoot.

That's my point John. Now football changes tactically quite quickly these days IMHO. Mourinho's Chelsea were quite innovative in their set-up, and this Man Utd team is quite unusual in theirs. They're undoubtedly helped in their method by the fact they have the best two centre halves in the league, they trust them to defend and the two lads get on with it. Because of all this anyway, and obviously because they've got good players, they win lots and lots of football matches. Such is their attacking intent that they don't concede a goal for weeks, so hard are teams working to keep them out.

So to rephrase the question in the topic starter, do we need to play more like that in the sense we go for it more, commit more etc? Do we need to copy a little bit of the Mancs thinking, or if we carry on as we are, will we eventually win enough matches to win the title? My feeling is that us drawing lots and lots of matches is an improvement on where we used to be 9hence the progression) because we used to lose them. However, if you go through the majority of first halves without scoring a goal, you are running the risk of conceding one and then depending upon a last ditch tactical masterplan to win the match. We've done it quite a few times this season, but often we haven't as well. Funnily enough, if we don't score but actually don't concede either, the fear of getting beat sets in and the game very often peters out to a 0-0.

In a nutshell, whoever is the manager nest season (and I'm absolutely certain it'll be Rafa) IMHO needs to be much more attacking than we currently are.

[bigmick]

Hear hear.

You see that's what annoys me.

The fact that Rafa makes mistakes. He really does. The Keane situation has been a debacle. We could talk about other mistakes too, the failure to fill the right wing with a player of the level Liverpool requires.

So Rafa makes mistakes, and I can understand people losing faith in him. I can understand people wanting titles in a big club aswell.

But, when one is so convinced about Rafa being bad, and starts too hard looking for digs, you can reach a point like implying that a very good signing has some "buts".

I don't understand it. I really don't. People talk about telling things like it is and ask hypothetical questions like "would Ronaldo had progressed the same way at Anfield" or something like that. And they ask you to give it a thought.

Well I've done so. And I don't understand why we must measure how top players progress under a manager  thinking on a hypothesis that none of us could be sure of the outcome.

Surely you could think instead of your own top quality  players and the progress they've done:

Reina: Who  was he in Spain? Was he an international? Was he even compared to Casillas?

Give it some thought, a couple of minutes.

Torres: Was he a world class player in Spain? Would any club pay more for him now than we paid for him? Should we consider his words of gratefulness to Rafa for his personal progress in his career?

Give it some thought, a couple minutes.

Mascherano: How come the unknown (he may be known in his house, not my country) coach that left him in the bench in his previous club could not see his potential? Has Rafa helped the career of Mascherano.

Yes, another couple of minutes

And Alonso?. And Carraguer?. And Gerrard?

A couple of minutes each.

So can anyone explain me why should I think of fúcking ROnaldo hypothetically here when we could talk about the top players of our club? can anyone explain me how that hypothesis is remotely relevant? What's the point being made?

No, I don't have problems to discuss the Rafa mistakes. But sometimes in this forum people try too hard either with sets of numbers or strange points to criticise the manager. Since Rafa makes mistakes, I don't know why we should make up mistakes that do not exist. Let's comment the actual mistakes. I know my happy clappy view is not neutral, I know it, but that other extreme isn't neutral neither. But do they know it?

Felt I had to come back to this. Just to put it into context, I asked on another thread where we were talking about the handling of players whether Ronaldo would have been a success under Rafa. I did say when I asked the question to just think for a second as the answer might not be as obvious as it first appears.

My reasoning was that when Ronaldo first arrived at Man Utd, he bore little or no resemblence to the player we see today. Crucially though, it wasn't a technical or a tactical improvement which was needed, the likes of which we've seen with Carragher, it was an improvement in game appreciation, awareness, maturity etc. The key was also to improve in these areas, deliver a better final ball etc without actually curbing or surpressing his natural talent. The classic "arm around the shoulder/father figure was needed. When Ronaldo first arrived, he was 90% show pony and 10% talent, a baby in every sense.

Anyway, the idea got kicked around for a bit, and I concuded/accepted/admitted along with other people that he is such a good player, such a talented individual that he would in all probability have thrived under Rafa as well. I don't FWIW think any of what I've said so far is a distortion of reality in terms of what was said, and neither is it particularly offensive I don't think.

The reason behind the initial question was quite simply that IMHO Rafa's handling of the more mercurial type of players is less than inspiring at times, and there have been more than a few examples. Anyway, like I say after giving it some though Ronaldo would have been able to overcome such hurdles no doubt.



Quite why the rhetorical question so obviously stirred up the angst though I'm not sure. People really are feeling very sensitive around these parts lately. Hopefully we can beat Real Madrid and then everyone can get back to their normal selves again, because this upsetting people every time you post is no good to anybody.



Anyway, if anyone can find the original exchange between me and Nan and wants to rip me to shreds, lets do it over there because this thread I quite like in that it's different to just about every other discussion on the board. This one is not about who should be the manager, this one is about how we shoud set up if we want to win the league, or indeed how anybody who wants to finish in front of the Mancs should.

[aCe']

Your talking b0ll0cks John I'm not talking about a major reconstruction of personel here. The thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent with people talking about signings in Spain, whether or not Ronaldo would have been a success under Rafa and the like, but my point is about mindset.

Just to steer it back to where it started (and if anyone is interested I'll certainly revisit points raised here or anywhere else) it's about do we go for wins enough both in our set up and our play. It is my firmly held belief that if you asked a complete neutral to watch one of our matches, and then watch a match is which say the Mancs played, he would notice some obvious differences from an attacking sense. Leaving out the personel for a second, he would notice because it is absolutely blindingly obvious that the Mancs commit far more men into the box when they're attacking than we do. He would also notice that whereas we often ask our wide midfielders to be effectively advanced fullbacks, the first line of wide defence, they ask their wide midfielders to create. They indulge those players attacking instincts, encourage them to commit forward with seemingly much less emphasis on shape and tracking back. They'd notice that the Manc's full backs often get ahead of the play, and are trusted to return as and when they can. They'd also notice that they don't play with a sitter in the purest sense, Carrick often turning up in and around the edge of the box to shoot.

That's my point John. Now football changes tactically quite quickly these days IMHO. Mourinho's Chelsea were quite innovative in their set-up, and this Man Utd team is quite unusual in theirs. They're undoubtedly helped in their method by the fact they have the best two centre halves in the league, they trust them to defend and the two lads get on with it. Because of all this anyway, and obviously because they've got good players, they win lots and lots of football matches. Such is their attacking intent that they don't concede a goal for weeks, so hard are teams working to keep them out.

So to rephrase the question in the topic starter, do we need to play more like that in the sense we go for it more, commit more etc? Do we need to copy a little bit of the Mancs thinking, or if we carry on as we are, will we eventually win enough matches to win the title? My feeling is that us drawing lots and lots of matches is an improvement on where we used to be 9hence the progression) because we used to lose them. However, if you go through the majority of first halves without scoring a goal, you are running the risk of conceding one and then depending upon a last ditch tactical masterplan to win the match. We've done it quite a few times this season, but often we haven't as well. Funnily enough, if we don't score but actually don't concede either, the fear of getting beat sets in and the game very often peters out to a 0-0.

In a nutshell, whoever is the manager nest season (and I'm absolutely certain it'll be Rafa) IMHO needs to be much more attacking than we currently are.

mick... its all about tactics and how the manager sets the team up... if we play the same starting 11 we have in our hands now in a different way we'd probably look a whole lot better going forward without really tinkering much with our defensive setup... as things stand i think our main problems are not so much the lack of width, lack of backup strikers..etc, its much more to do with how the manager chooses to set the players up and how certain players are given certain instructions seemingly that are pretty detrimental to our attacking play... some of the draws could have been wins if we had commited more bodies in attack, coulld have been losses too but give me 3 wins and 2 losses ahead of 5 draws any day of the week and ill take it...(Sabre take note BTW)

all boils down to who's in charge and how they chose to play the game... while under Rafa i dont see much chance of that changing to be honest... as i said before, it would probably take us going out and spending big on bringing in class players that fit in certain attacking positions for this formation to look good when we'r going forward (right winger, better rightback, probably a more attacking option down the middle as well).

[GYBS]

has every thread in the last 7 days turned into a free for all against rafa ? Im pretty sure mick didnt start this thread of as such but still plenty of digs towards rafa and same with plenty other threads .