Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

I'd also tell the manager that he can buy from his previous club(s), but only on approval. Must be pretty close as to whether more of Rafa's Spanish League signings have worked out or been sold. Nunez, Josemi, Morientes, Luis Garcia and Sissoko are just a few names spring to mind with a Spanish connection that aren't here anymore. Torres, Alonso, Reina, Arbeloa, Riera and Aurelio are a few that are (excluding any kids)

So, we're going to tell a Spanish manager how to shop in Spain?  Yeah, tell us another one.

Look, Rafa's made some poor transfer decisions but when it comes to shopping in Spain, I'd give him as much leeway as he wants because he's done brilliantly.  Let's take a look:

1) Torres, Reina and Alonso are top quality signings that have improved us no end and would not be here right now were it not for Rafa

2) Riera, Arbeloa and Aurelio are solid signings and have played their part in making us very good team (despite the doom and gloom, you don't sit second in the league at the end of February for being muck).   They're not world class but they play their roles.  I think must people would happily see them replaced if true world class players were brought in in their positions but they'd still be very handy lads to have in the squad.  Good signings all.

3) Garcia and Sissoko.  I see you make note of the fact that they're no longer here as a way of saying they weren't good signings but that's a very narrow view.  No way we would have won the Champions League in 05 without Garcia and no way we would have reached the final in 07 without Sissoko.  Both had their faults and both had dips in form towards the end of their time but let's not make out that they were rubbish because they certainly were not.  Good signings.

4) Morientes.  A unbridled flop to be sure but hindsight is well and truly 20/20 in his case.  I remember virtually everyone being excited when we signed him and with good reason: he was a striker with an excellent pedigree in Spain and in France.  He was a class player that looked like he would improve us to know end.  I simply refuse to take anyone seriously who claims they 'knew' he wouldn't cut it in England because you just can't know that kind of thing.  Berbatov looks a similar player in many ways and he's managed just fine, for instance.  A good signing at the time...it's too bad it never worked out but I would never criticize Rafa for going for him.

5) Josemi.  Not good enough clearly.  But, Rafa's first signing in a new league and he seemed to have a bit of the yard dog about him so Rafa probably thought he'd suit the English game.  He didn't but he did provide Finnan with some competition and, perhaps more crucially, provided important RB cover after Rafa converted Carragher back to his proper position (a move that has been so natural and successful that, ironically, Rafa never gets credit for it; but read Carra's bio to see how appreciative he is).  A poor signing in hindsight but not nearly as bad as people like to make out.

6) Nunez.  It always winds me up when Nunez is brought up as a way to criticize Rafa's signings.  He was part of the Owen deal.  We were losing our best striker for a value far below his true worth but Madrid decided to chuck in a fringe player to sweeten the pot.  Is it any wonder he was mediocre?  It's not like they were going to throw in Ramos was it?  Besides, we had no proper wide players on that flank so why not take the lad?  If he had pulled a Riera and provided balance it would have been a savvy bit of business.  As it was, he pulled up with a major injury in his first training session and never really found his feet as a result but it's ridiculously harsh to blame Rafa for all that.

So, when you really look at it, Rafa has done a fantastic job of shopping in Spain (as you would expect).  He's had the pull to bring in a top name like Torres, when the Mancs and Arsenal couldn't prise him away from AM.  And, he's had the savvy to seek out the hidden gems--the Alonsos, Reinas, Garcias and Sissokos--that have played such a big role in our recent successes.  No, where Rafa's struggled in the transfer market has been in England (Pennant, Bellamy, Keane,)...on the continent he's done pretty well and in Spain especially, he's been kwalitee.

I'm not saying we should tell him how to shop, just that someone else should at least share his assessment of players that may be bought due to them having worked together which doesn't always work when at a different club.

Unless Rafa was forced to sell them then he must have had something made him sell them. No matter how you look at it, he bought a lot of Spanish/Spanish League players and they're not here into Rafa's 5th season. They clearly weren't so indispensible or Rafa would have retained them like he did Reina and Alonso, and probably will Torres. There's no stability and a lot of those signings were made with Rafa's Spanish connection in mind and not necessarily what would work best or was in the best interests of the club. So we've had a rather large turnaround of players for nearing five years, that will not help the club.

As for your individual assessments, you could do that for Houllier signings that Rafa got rid of, or other players Rafa has signed. What does it prove? Nothing. Which is what your comment about Rafa doing "fantastic shopping in Spain" is worth. I don't entirely agree with shopping in England, you've almost contradicted your own dismissive opening comment because Rafa "knows" the Spanish league and doesn't have a scooby doo when shopping in England, yet still he wants to shop in England as well as Spain.

Reina, Alonso and Torres stand alone as undeniable successes at Anfield, even then Reina and Alonso have had shakey spells, been under question and not quite convinced. Anyone else you try to add to that list would be done so very subjectively. If Luis Garcia was such a "hidden gem" then why isn't he here any more? Arbeloa is but I'm not convinced he's so great. Unless of course you're suggesting we had to sell some of those players...........


As for Nunez, I know he was part of the Owen deal but Rafa still agreed to having him. He could have brokered a deal for a better player, even if it meant less cash. So don't make out like Rafa was completely helpless and Nunez was forced on him in such a sanctimonius shit way

Bab Bob, easily pleased by our spanish legion.

[Owzat]

And those players that were sold were often sold at a profit and if sold at a loss, the loss was minimal. Good point about the English players which lets me think that perhaps they don't really understand each other both linguistically and more importantly culturally, rather than bad judgement in spotting talent.

Profit squandered on other players. Profit made on a player doesn't make them a success, all it means is someone is prepared to pay £Xm and that worked out more than we'd paid for them. If they were "kwalitee" then you and every other person on here sucking on Rafa's dong would have been outraged at their sale. There was some shock at Sissoko going, I see that was got over by the signing of Mascherano as the new cult hero.

Profit making is for clubs who struggle to raise cash other ways, unsuccessful clubs. Would the mancs sell a key player if it meant a profit? NO. They wouldn't sell Ronaldo, he only cost twelve and a bit million but he's too valuable. So profit has FA to do with it, just like we wouldn't sell Torres for a profit - unless it was a massive one.

Rafa's shopping in the English market is unbelievably poor, but then that may simply be poor judgement in signing players who've shone at smaller clubs and can't up their game to one of a big club. If those players were so good then how come the likes of Blackburn (Bellamy), Southampton (Crouch), West Ham (Benayoun), Brum (Pennant) etc let them go relatively cheap in the first place? I'd say that the players we sign from some of the English clubs are far from the best players at the club let alone the best clubs in the country

[stmichael]

My feeling is that firstly we don't commit anywhere near enough players into the box on a regular enough basis to win lots of games. Equally, we don't set up with enough intent, nor do we hunt the wins with enough voracity.

Agree with this entirely. This season we have failed to socre in the first half of games on no fewer than 23 occasions. We don't seem to really throw men forward until we go behind in games. I really wish we'd go at teams from the off more often, like we did against Juventus back in 2005. The first half an hour of that game we absolutely blitzed them and they looked frightened to death.

[The Good Yank]

Turning draws into wins is obviously what the club needs most.  The lack of creativity is, IMO the biggest culprit in the amount of draws.  This, at the same time, goes hand in hand with the "Don't get beaten" philosophy, as opposed to a philosophy that is based on going for the win.

As it stands right now, if we had split the 10 in league draws down the middle with 5 more wins and 5 losses we would be only 2pts behind the Mancs and would be frothing at the mouth with a chance to overtake the top spot at Old Trafford.  IMO a change of philosophy is in dire need.

All well and good of course, but in order to be able to change the way LFC go about things on the pitch, changes are needed in the depth of the team.  Despite the flaws in the first 11 I think When Fit, they bring enough to the table to mount a true challenge.  The problem is depth.  Take this past Sunday as a perfect example.  Citeh aren't exactly world beaters defensively, yet it took a muffed shot from Torres to set up our only goal.  Without Alonso the team has enough problems, without Alonso and Gerrard, well, I shudder with fear as to how a season would go without the pair of them.

The fragility of the team relying on three players to carry the offensive burden is overwhelming.  Without wide players to form an attack, this club can't afford to deploy two holding midfielders and expect to carve out results.  Instead of quantity I'd rather see two or three impact attacking players available off the bench, than having six or seven that have very little chance of impacting a game.

[Bad Bob]

I'm not saying we should tell him how to shop, just that someone else should at least share his assessment of players that may be bought due to them having worked together which doesn't always work when at a different club.

Unless Rafa was forced to sell them then he must have had something made him sell them. No matter how you look at it, he bought a lot of Spanish/Spanish League players and they're not here into Rafa's 5th season. They clearly weren't so indispensible or Rafa would have retained them like he did Reina and Alonso, and probably will Torres. There's no stability and a lot of those signings were made with Rafa's Spanish connection in mind and not necessarily what would work best or was in the best interests of the club. So we've had a rather large turnaround of players for nearing five years, that will not help the club.

As for your individual assessments, you could do that for Houllier signings that Rafa got rid of, or other players Rafa has signed. What does it prove? Nothing. Which is what your comment about Rafa doing "fantastic shopping in Spain" is worth. I don't entirely agree with shopping in England, you've almost contradicted your own dismissive opening comment because Rafa "knows" the Spanish league and doesn't have a scooby doo when shopping in England, yet still he wants to shop in England as well as Spain.

Reina, Alonso and Torres stand alone as undeniable successes at Anfield, even then Reina and Alonso have had shakey spells, been under question and not quite convinced. Anyone else you try to add to that list would be done so very subjectively. If Luis Garcia was such a "hidden gem" then why isn't he here any more? Arbeloa is but I'm not convinced he's so great. Unless of course you're suggesting we had to sell some of those players...........


As for Nunez, I know he was part of the Owen deal but Rafa still agreed to having him. He could have brokered a deal for a better player, even if it meant less cash. So don't make out like Rafa was completely helpless and Nunez was forced on him in such a sanctimonius shit way

Bab Bob, easily pleased by our spanish legion.

Ahh, the delicious irony...the king of sanctimony telling me to knock it on the head.   What, no opening remarks about those with their heads in the sands need not read on for this one?

Anyway, back to your points.  First, it's simply not true that every Spanish player Rafa signed is someone he's worked with in the past (Torres, Alonso, Reina to take 3 instances) so let's put that one to bed right now.  I also think you're well wide of the mark when you say "a lot of those signings were made with Rafa's Spanish connection in mind and not necessarily what would work best or was in the best interests of the club."  Are you seriously suggesting that Rafa didn't think these players would benefit the club?  If so, what a blinkered view some people now have of the manager.  I'll fully acknowledge he's made mistakes and I'll even go so far as to suggest that his role in the Keane affair reeks of politics rather than footballing decisions but I can't fathom how anyone could think that signing these Spanish lads was not done to benefit the club.  Just because players sometimes don't work out doesn't mean they weren't signed in good faith, as an honest attempt to improve the squad.

I stand fully behind what I said about Rafa's shopping in Spain whether you think it's worth little or not.  As for contradicting myself, I've no idea what you're referring to.  I've acknowledged that Rafa has been mediocre at best when shopping in England so I'm not making him out to be some guru in the transfer market (indeed, that's been one of my biggest criticisms of him).  What I am saying is that his transfer dealings in Spain have been his best ones almost completely across the board and it takes a particular brand of cynic to deny him credit where it's due on that front.  And, I'm sure it doesn't need explaining why Rafa would bother shopping in England in addition to Spain--it's probably a sound general policy to have some homegrown talent in the squad in an English league, over and above the 'incentives' created by UEFA's regulations.

I particularly liked the bit about Reina and Alonso's shakey spells.  Why not go whole hog and say Torres has as well (because he has)?  Does it mean that all three haven't been EXCELLENT signings?  Of course not...silly point, that.  Garcia will always be considered a gem to me for his contributions, especially to our 05 Champions League campaign but he was also an inconsistent, mercurial talent.  I've never suggested he was a world beater, just that--on the balance based on what he contributed--he was a good signing.  He left apparently because he was a bit homesick for Spain....it happens.  Sissoko left because he had lost his place to Mascherano and wasn't responding well to coming off the bench...it happens.  I never said Arbeloa was "great", I said solid and I think our defensive record backs me up on that.  Good signing.  I could go on but I've already made these points.  On the whole, Rafa has signed well in Spain and I'm struggling to see how anyone can really refute that...you haven't yet, in any case.

Finally, this takes the cake: "I know [Nunez] was part of the Owen deal but Rafa still agreed to having him. He could have brokered a deal for a better player, even if it meant less cash."  Could he have?  You know this how?  Madrid known for being taken for mugs are they?  What kind of bargaining position do you think Rafa was in?  Owen hadn't signed a new contract and had clearly told Rafa he wasn't staying.  Rafa had no choice but to leave him out of the CL qualifier in Austria which told the world that he was off so how much leverage do you expect he had to get a better player out of Madrid?  I think the answer probably lies somewhere between slim and none so don't try and make out like Rafa dropped the ball on Nunez.

Owzat, can't seem to give credit where credit's due.

[RUSHIE#9]

Number one priority for me has to be the philosophy of our game. Too many times this season we've shit out in games and settled for the draw. When we have a fully fit first 11 we should be able to go out on the park and batter teams into submission. Too often though we go too cautious (especially the lesser teams in the league) and create a headache for ourselves with opposition teams gaining confidence. Sunday vs. Citeh was a perfect case.

I certainly believe that while we don't need wholesale changes in personnel, we do need added kwalitee in the first 11, as others have said out wide and at full back.

[account deleted by request]

What kind of bargaining position do you think Rafa was in?  Owen hadn't signed a new contract and had clearly told Rafa he wasn't staying.  Rafa had no choice but to leave him out of the CL qualifier in Austria which told the world that he was off so how much leverage do you expect he had to get a better player out of Madrid?  I think the answer probably lies somewhere between slim and none so don't try and make out like Rafa dropped the ball on Nunez.

Sorry Bob but I don't agree with this part mate. I still believe Liverpool had the option of taking a gamble on Owen. I have no doubt if they had wanted to they could have asked Owen to fullfill his contract obligations in just the same way as Newcastle did this season.

After we had won the CL I have no doubt he would have decided to sign another contract ........ just as Gerrard did. 

The fact is that Liverpool wern't willing to gamble on Owen (and lose £10million or so) because they decided they couldn't afford to take the risk, with Owen walking away for nothing the following summer if the season was poor (which to be fair it was in the League)

The truth is Liverpool were close to skint, we had to sell Heskey just to pay off Houllier (who we had been foolish enough to give a new contract to ) So selling Owen and getting our HIGHEST PAID PLAYER off the books probably looked much more attractive then than in hindsight. (especially with his injury record) Unsurprisingly it was only when Gerrard had declared he was staying did any rumour that Owen might not surfaced.

Reading Carra's book just makes me wonder how hard did we really try to keep Owen?

[Sabre]

--snip the irrelevant part--

Ahh, the delicious irony...the king of sanctimony telling me to knock it on the head.   What, no opening remarks about those with their heads in the sands need not read on for this one?

Anyway, back to your points.  First, it's simply not true that every Spanish player Rafa signed is someone he's worked with in the past (Torres, Alonso, Reina to take 3 instances) so let's put that one to bed right now.  I also think you're well wide of the mark when you say "a lot of those signings were made with Rafa's Spanish connection in mind and not necessarily what would work best or was in the best interests of the club."  Are you seriously suggesting that Rafa didn't think these players would benefit the club?  If so, what a blinkered view some people now have of the manager.  I'll fully acknowledge he's made mistakes and I'll even go so far as to suggest that his role in the Keane affair reeks of politics rather than footballing decisions but I can't fathom how anyone could think that signing these Spanish lads was not done to benefit the club.  Just because players sometimes don't work out doesn't mean they weren't signed in good faith, as an honest attempt to improve the squad.

I stand fully behind what I said about Rafa's shopping in Spain whether you think it's worth little or not.  As for contradicting myself, I've no idea what you're referring to.  I've acknowledged that Rafa has been mediocre at best when shopping in England so I'm not making him out to be some guru in the transfer market (indeed, that's been one of my biggest criticisms of him).  What I am saying is that his transfer dealings in Spain have been his best ones almost completely across the board and it takes a particular brand of cynic to deny him credit where it's due on that front.  And, I'm sure it doesn't need explaining why Rafa would bother shopping in England in addition to Spain--it's probably a sound general policy to have some homegrown talent in the squad in an English league, over and above the 'incentives' created by UEFA's regulations.

I particularly liked the bit about Reina and Alonso's shakey spells.  Why not go whole hog and say Torres has as well (because he has)?  Does it mean that all three haven't been EXCELLENT signings?  Of course not...silly point, that.  Garcia will always be considered a gem to me for his contributions, especially to our 05 Champions League campaign but he was also an inconsistent, mercurial talent.  I've never suggested he was a world beater, just that--on the balance based on what he contributed--he was a good signing.  He left apparently because he was a bit homesick for Spain....it happens.  Sissoko left because he had lost his place to Mascherano and wasn't responding well to coming off the bench...it happens.  I never said Arbeloa was "great", I said solid and I think our defensive record backs me up on that.  Good signing.  I could go on but I've already made these points.  On the whole, Rafa has signed well in Spain and I'm struggling to see how anyone can really refute that...you haven't yet, in any case.

Finally, this takes the cake: "I know [Nunez] was part of the Owen deal but Rafa still agreed to having him. He could have brokered a deal for a better player, even if it meant less cash."  Could he have?  You know this how?  Madrid known for being taken for mugs are they?  What kind of bargaining position do you think Rafa was in?  Owen hadn't signed a new contract and had clearly told Rafa he wasn't staying.  Rafa had no choice but to leave him out of the CL qualifier in Austria which told the world that he was off so how much leverage do you expect he had to get a better player out of Madrid?  I think the answer probably lies somewhere between slim and none so don't try and make out like Rafa dropped the ball on Nunez.

Owzat, can't seem to give credit where credit's due.

Hear hear.

You see that's what annoys me.

The fact that Rafa makes mistakes. He really does. The Keane situation has been a debacle. We could talk about other mistakes too, the failure to fill the right wing with a player of the level Liverpool requires.

So Rafa makes mistakes, and I can understand people losing faith in him. I can understand people wanting titles in a big club aswell.

But, when one is so convinced about Rafa being bad, and starts too hard looking for digs, you can reach a point like implying that a very good signing has some "buts".

I don't understand it. I really don't. People talk about telling things like it is and ask hypothetical questions like "would Ronaldo had progressed the same way at Anfield" or something like that. And they ask you to give it a thought.

Well I've done so. And I don't understand why we must measure how top players progress under a manager  thinking on a hypothesis that none of us could be sure of the outcome.

Surely you could think instead of your own top quality  players and the progress they've done:

Reina: Who  was he in Spain? Was he an international? Was he even compared to Casillas?

Give it some thought, a couple of minutes.

Torres: Was he a world class player in Spain? Would any club pay more for him now than we paid for him? Should we consider his words of gratefulness to Rafa for his personal progress in his career?

Give it some thought, a couple minutes.

Mascherano: How come the unknown (he may be known in his house, not my country) coach that left him in the bench in his previous club could not see his potential? Has Rafa helped the career of Mascherano.

Yes, another couple of minutes

And Alonso?. And Carraguer?. And Gerrard?

A couple of minutes each.

So can anyone explain me why should I think of fúcking ROnaldo hypothetically here when we could talk about the top players of our club? can anyone explain me how that hypothesis is remotely relevant? What's the point being made?

No, I don't have problems to discuss the Rafa mistakes. But sometimes in this forum people try too hard either with sets of numbers or strange points to criticise the manager. Since Rafa makes mistakes, I don't know why we should make up mistakes that do not exist. Let's comment the actual mistakes. I know my happy clappy view is not neutral, I know it, but that other extreme isn't neutral neither. But do they know it?

[taff]

Good post Sabre but unfortunately people have made their minds up and I fear that your excellent reasoning will be ignored as some people obviously know loads about how the club works and what Rafa is like with the players

[zarababe]

I've already said in another thread we need more world class / 'qwality' players.. we can't just rely on Torres, Gerrard, Reina and Carra..  we need a wc striker for defo

[heimdall]

But surely their comes a oint when too many mistakes have been made, inthe real world that normally means you get sacked but apparently not if you manage a football lcub like Liverpool. The Keane affair in isolation would be enough for a manger to get the sack in the real world, imagine a MD or CEO loosing £6 million, and making his company look like idiots and keeping his job, no neither can I.

I guess the difference between the anti's and pro is the level of tolerance you give to feck ups.

[taff]

Actual costs on Keane was 1 million

[heimdall]

Actual costs on Keane was 1 million

Please explain that one to me Taff

[dawson99]

Actual costs on Keane was 1 million

Please explain that one to me Taff

we paid 11 and got 10

there.


And Football isn't the Real World. Wait and see, hope Rafa gets the contract he deserves and let him win us this title we want and need.

[heimdall]

Actual costs on Keane was 1 million

Please explain that one to me Taff

we paid 11 and got 10

there.


And Football isn't the Real World. Wait and see, hope Rafa gets the contract he deserves and let him win us this title we want and need.

Erm no, we payed 18 million didn't we but we've only given Spurs 10 million so far, we still owe them 7 million by my calculations, or was that 7 million written off by Spurs?