Liverpool FC Forum

[112-1077774096]

and that ladies and gentlemen is why torres should not have spent 2 of the last 3 league hours warming the bench.

anyone still think rafa was right to leave him there.

in rafa we trust, dont make me laugh

[LFC2007]

'Twas an average game for a large part of the first half, Reading pressed high up, Leiva and Sissoko had little time on the ball and we had no width on the right as Benayoun assumed a more central role.

Anyhow, the game opened up after the goal, partly because it's very difficult to press teams, especially teams with trickery and pace, so persistently for 90 minutes.

Despite the dour build up to the match, the point about maintaining confidence or at least reviving confidence is very important. Had we lost, of course I would be pointing to the Crystal Palace match of two seasons ago in the same cup where we bounced back immeasurably, as a reason for optimism.

The performance is at least as important as the result in these types of games, although we never dominated the game always allowing Reading an opportunity to come back until Torres scored his third. Nothing needs to be added about the quality he showed.

It may be surprising that Torres started the match, but perhaps Rafa wanted to re-ignite his form with a game perfectly suited to his style.

Although the point re Torres and the Birmingham match has been done to death. I will just say this:

1) I was disappointed that Torres didn't start, however, I can understand the reasoning behind it - as explained by AB. In spite of his omission from the starting line up, the team should have been more than capable of defeating Birmingham City. It's very difficult to unlock teams that are set up in that manner, it requires guile more than anything - Benayoun would have been ideal but for Yom Kipper.

2) It may have been a mistake in the view of most people on this forum that he didn't start. I would contend that by playing Torres in no way guaranteed a win. I think he possesses guile and pace, and I too was very surprised he didn't start. However, we are by no means a one man team, a combination of factors led to that result, one of which was IMO the loss of Alonso. Some people say he's not creative, he's about as creative a passer as you'll find.

3) Would I call the Birmingham result a mistake on Rafa's part? Not entirely, but partly. The team must accept its share of the responsibility, it's not a given that we would have won had Torres started and you therefore can't make the accusation that we lost as a result of Rafa's selection. Had we won the Birmingham match with that side, which was more than capable of doing so, the 'f#ck off Rafa' brigade would not have gone off on an embarrassing rant. Blame the tactics on Rafa, blame partly a lack of motivation shown by the players on Rafa, but please don't suggest that we would have won the match but for Rafa's omission of Torres. Also question the players, they implement the plan, Rafa can do no more than prepare the side as best as he can.



.......................................

Goodbye Birmingham City, Bruce is a bit of a Wayne Kerr anyway.

[Ciggy]

:D  'Type proper'. Your reasoning for Torres playing was that you and your kid bought a shirt with his name on it.....so what?

Me and my family have spent more on LFC than you have on your house cheeky b@stard.
My kids got Torres's name on his shirt he has atleast 20 fecking liverpool kits in his draw.

[Scottbot]

Who the feck were saying "Who are ye?" after our goals?

Was it our fans? Friggin hope not

Fraid so 

[redtrader74]

Me and my family have spent more on LFC than you have on your house cheeky b@stard.

I very much doubt that, you haven't seen my houses, but thats irrelevant.

Why the chip on the shoulder? I only questioned why your shirt buying and the name on the back should have any bearing on whether Rafa picks a player or not. Calm down.

[roberto green]

If you think thats good,my Gran has every Liverpool kit going back to the first world war and her dog "Rafa the knasher" has a dog bowl with the liverpool crest on it......

...More impressive i know!

[account deleted by request]

Theres never an A.B. around when he's needed.

[Ciggy]

Why the chip on the shoulder? I only questioned why your shirt buying and the name on the back should have any bearing on whether Rafa picks a player or not. Calm down.

You question my shirt buying how feckin dare you, my son has kits from every club all over the world .
And he has more than 15 Liverpool kits what a sad fecker you are.
as if I have only bought my son a Torres kit Fuck off me & my sons got Liverpool tops & kits from even before you where born.

[red37]

About Rafa's interviews from tonight:

A few points that pricked my ears up (not exactly worth going overboard on)  nonetheless, i thought slightly bizarre comments.

1. Before the game Rafa expressed his ignorance to the fact that he didn't realise Torres and Crouch hadn't started together up front...

I find it unusual in the least to accept that a man as meticulous in his preparation/execution and general 'attention to every detail' as Rafa Benitez could simply not know this.

2. After the game when asked about Torres performance Rafa said "With the space we know that he can kill the defenders"...

The answer was given with the usual cheeky grin as if to attempt a sarcastic rebuff to the ever prying media, yet underneath that facade what really was the thinking behind Torres omission at the weekend....i see little reason to laugh it off as easily as Benitez did.

3. Rightly cheesed off that Readings first goal was allowed to stand despite there being at least 3 players in an offside position - he went on to add that "The first one and the second goal also...both were in offside, its clear"...

Well, that is wrong. There was a covering player on the line (Benayoun?) so how on earth could the second goal be offside. The real culprit was the over zealous Itandje who came out into no mans land.


Perspective regained.

Im in no way shape or form revisiting old ground and launching phase two of an attack on our manager here. Far from that, iam just a little bit surprised at some of his comments made during interviews and the like. These aren't calculated, measured utterances that are designed to throw journalists off any scent that the club may or may not be attempting to conceal...they sound like genuine lapses of reason. Nothing major, of course and im within easy reach of all of my own faculties whilst hearing them with my own ears.. But, are they mistakes or are they worth considering more closely than that.

Put it this way, Rafa was mighty relieved to see Torres get back onto the pitch after 3 minutes and resume normal service from the early knock. It was written clearly across his features. Almost a whiff of vindication too after 94. But, what pearls of wisdom would have sprung from his mouth if it did all fall to pieces in that first opening few moments?  Where in defence would Rafa have found sanctuary then...

Perhaps, we are all on the lookout for the slightest chink in the fella's armour - out for the smell of blood at any opportunity. Who can blame anyone for being scrupulous in the turning over of any and every stone along the path to understanding this most flabbergastingly brilliant of Coaches at the best of times. Let alone ironing out the creases during a mini-blip consisting of, heaven forbid 3 goalless draws...prior to tonights commendable win.

Like i say, not an attack at all. Merely a curious fascination with the thinking behind some of the answers...which ultimately lie at the foundations of that which we are not privvy to after all. Namely the fortunes of the club we would (almost to a man) die for in the hope of seeing it as successful as it once was and can become once more. Pressure telling, comprehensive grasp of the language or something altogether more worrying here?

[maguskwt]

1) I was disappointed that Torres didn't start, however, I can understand the reasoning behind it - as explained by AB. In spite of his omission from the starting line up, the team should have been more than capable of defeating Birmingham City. It's very difficult to unlock teams that are set up in that manner, it requires guile more than anything - Benayoun would have been ideal but for Yom Kipper.

2) It may have been a mistake in the view of most people on this forum that he didn't start. I would contend that by playing Torres in no way guaranteed a win. I think he possesses guile and pace, and I too was very surprised he didn't start. However, we are by no means a one man team, a combination of factors led to that result, one of which was IMO the loss of Alonso. Some people say he's not creative, he's about as creative a passer as you'll find.

3) Would I call the Birmingham result a mistake on Rafa's part? Not entirely, but partly. The team must accept its share of the responsibility, it's not a given that we would have won had Torres started and you therefore can't make the accusation that we lost as a result of Rafa's selection. Had we won the Birmingham match with that side, which was more than capable of doing so, the 'f#ck off Rafa' brigade would not have gone off on an embarrassing rant. Blame the tactics on Rafa, blame partly a lack of motivation shown by the players on Rafa, but please don't suggest that we would have won the match but for Rafa's omission of Torres. Also question the players, they implement the plan, Rafa can do no more than prepare the side as best as he can.

good points.


anyway... I think rafa' decision to give this game some importance by sending in a semi-strong line up instead of an all-reserve team is a good call after the 3 lack lustre draws. now at least the team's morale will be lifted and they will find it just a bit easier to forget the dreadful games.

interesting thing is if we didn't win this game the headlines gonna read "rafa's rotation yet again causes the reds to stutter" or something like that and the anti-rotation ppl will point this out as another "proof".

Torres as ppl have said here already is the best striker we've had since owen and fowler. You can clearly see that his finishing and intelligence is superb and almost reminiscent of owen... and clearly a level ahead than kuyt, crouch and voronin. His first goal yet again show's his timing and precision. The second goal was even more impressive because you can see his quick thinking and intelligence by opening his body wide and placing the ball to the far corner instead of just whacking the ball like riise. The third goal agains shows his owen-like predatory instincts by beating the offside trap and cooly rounding the keeper... congratulations kid! I hope you start in our next game!

torres + kuyt the best striker partnership for us for me. crouch causing problems for teams because of his height is over-exageration. He causes more setbacks than gains to the way we play now...

[Ciggy]

Anyway Redtrader this topic isnt about you its about Liverpool V Reading .
No wonder RTk got started up.

[Dalglish]

We win 4-2 away from home against Premiership opposition and people seem to want to remind Benitez of who he left out on Saturday 

I agree there is a certain irony in tonights Torres inclusion and subsequent hatrick but as fans we can't have it all ways when we firstly slate Benitez for NOT doing something (include Torres from the start) then have a pop when he does.

Has he bowed to pressure from fans after 2 Premiership goaless draws ? If so then that steely single minded determination that we admire in him is no longer there. Maybe he is a touch stubborn even to the point of being pig headed

I suspect that Benitez is neither the Hero or Zero we sometimes make him out to be. He makes mistakes and he's human...........

I'm not berating our passion as fans but Benitez has forgot more about the game than most fans know in total. The mans bordering on OCD when it comes to the beautiful game and maybe he does over indulge his need to rotate and meddle but what can't be denied is his ability to come up with the goods.

Will he ultimately bring us the Premiership title ? Who knows, I certainly hope so but he won't have won or lost the Premiership last Saturday thats for sure. Every fan I know reaches the end of the season and thinks to themselves "What if this had happened or that had gone our way " but overall when all 38 fixtures are complete you tend to find yourselves where you deserve to be in terms of the League Table. Lets hope that despite the furore over Torres's exclusion from the starting line up in the last 2 games we don't need to look back in anger ........

Walk on.............

[The Bench]

Ciggy. I know we've all had a drink(you probably more than most tonite), I normaly understand most of your posts on here and agree wit the majority, but tonight your makin a tit of yourself. Its not about how many shirts yer kids got or who spends the most money supporting the team. Its about the team, and to say you didn't care whether we lost or won tonight is ridiculous.
Anyway, this post is not a pop at you, I apologise if it comes across that way.

My point is that I have a sneaky suspicion that by leaving nando out for a couple of games, just might be the case that Rafas made him hungrier. And by publically saying he needs space to play is a smoke screen that other managers might fall for. Plus by saying we will have to wait and see if he starts on saturday is another reason to have 4 good strikers, keep 'em guessing and that!

I'm not rose tinted fan, I believe the manager has to deliver the league within the next 2 seasons or theres a big search on for the next one. But the doom and gloom I've read on this and other boards in the last week is depressing.

Get over yer little arguments and yer belief that you know best and get behind the fckin team for fcks sake.

[maguskwt]

About Rafa's interviews from tonight:

A few points that pricked my ears up (not exactly worth going overboard on)  nonetheless, i thought slightly bizarre comments.

1. Before the game Rafa expressed his ignorance to the fact that he didn't realise Torres and Crouch hadn't started together up front...

I find it unusual in the least to accept that a man as meticulous in his preparation/execution and general 'attention to every detail' as Rafa Benitez could simply not know this.

2. After the game when asked about Torres performance Rafa said "With the space we know that he can kill the defenders"...

The answer was given with the usual cheeky grin as if to attempt a sarcastic rebuff to the ever prying media, yet underneath that facade what really was the thinking behind Torres omission at the weekend....i see little reason to laugh it off as easily as Benitez did.

3. Rightly cheesed off that Readings first goal was allowed to stand despite there being at least 3 players in an offside position - he went on to add that "The first one and the second goal also...both were in offside, its clear"...

Well, that is wrong. There was a covering player on the line (Benayoun?) so how on earth could the second goal be offside. The real culprit was the over zealous Itandje who came out into no mans land.


Perspective regained.

Im in no way shape or form revisiting old ground and launching phase two of an attack on our manager here. Far from that, iam just a little bit surprised at some of his comments made during interviews and the like. These aren't calculated, measured utterances that are designed to throw journalists off any scent that the club may or may not be attempting to conceal...they sound like genuine lapses of reason. Nothing major, of course and im within easy reach of all of my own faculties whilst hearing them with my own ears.. But, are they mistakes or are they worth considering more closely than that.

Put it this way, Rafa was mighty relieved to see Torres get back onto the pitch after 3 minutes and resume normal service from the early knock. It was written clearly across his features. Almost a whiff of vindication too after 94. But, what pearls of wisdom would have sprung from his mouth if it did all fall to pieces in that first opening few moments?  Where in defence would Rafa have found sanctuary then...

Perhaps, we are all on the lookout for the slightest chink in the fella's armour - out for the smell of blood at any opportunity. Who can blame anyone for being scrupulous in the turning over of any and every stone along the path to understanding this most flabbergastingly brilliant of Coaches at the best of times. Let alone ironing out the creases during a mini-blip consisting of, heaven forbid 3 goalless draws...prior to tonights commendable win.

Like i say, not an attack at all. Merely a curious fascination with the thinking behind some of the answers...which ultimately lie at the foundations of that which we are not privvy to after all. Namely the fortunes of the club we would (almost to a man) die for in the hope of seeing it as successful as it once was and can become once more. Pressure telling, comprehensive grasp of the language or something altogether more worrying here?

I don't know what to say about this post...

ok wait...NOT ALL of us are on "the lookout for the slightest chink in the fella's armour - out for the smell of blood at any opportunity." 

[Ciggy]

We win 4-2 away from home against Premiership opposition and people seem to want to remind Benitez of who he left out on Saturday 

I agree there is a certain irony in tonights Torres inclusion and subsequent hatrick but as fans we can't have it all ways when we firstly slate Benitez for NOT doing something (include Torres from the start) then have a pop when he does.

Has he bowed to pressure from fans after 2 Premiership goaless draws ? If so then that steely single minded determination that we admire in him is no longer there. Maybe he is a touch stubborn even to the point of being pig headed

I suspect that Benitez is neither the Hero or Zero we sometimes make him out to be. He makes mistakes and he's human...........

I'm not berating our passion as fans but Benitez has forgot more about the game than most fans know in total. The mans bordering on OCD when it comes to the beautiful game and maybe he does over indulge his need to rotate and meddle but what can't be denied is his ability to come up with the goods.

Will he ultimately bring us the Premiership title ? Who knows, I certainly hope so but he won't have won or lost the Premiership last Saturday thats for sure. Every fan I know reaches the end of the season and thinks to themselves "What if this had happened or that had gone our way " but overall when all 38 fixtures are complete you tend to find yourselves where you deserve to be in terms of the League Table. Lets hope that despite the furore over Torres's exclusion from the starting line up in the last 2 games we don't need to look back in anger ........

Walk on.............

Great post Ian and I agree to some exstent but if we finish 6 points behind will you be livid?
I will.