Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

I am suprised of the general thought about Dirk Kuyt... I think that hes an excellent player, everyone needs a Kuyt in their teams... It's like a Dutch Gatusso

Yeah, as Gerrard said of Gatusso "Gattuso is as frightening as a kitten, he can't hurt you like players like Kaka can"..... Dutch Gatusso ? 

[we all dream...]

I am suprised of the general thought about Dirk Kuyt... I think that hes an excellent player, everyone needs a Kuyt in their teams... It's like a Dutch Gatusso

Yeah, as Gerrard said of Gatusso "Gattuso is as frightening as a kitten, he can't hurt you like players like Kaka can"..... Dutch Gatusso ? 

good point well made Saint and im a Kuyt fan.

I would have a "kaka" over a "Gattuso" in our team any day.

Still, kuyts work rate is first class 

[Leonmc0708]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Top post. Agree 100%.

We should be playing to our players strengths or if we choose to play to a system, then we need to buy players whose natural game suits that system. There are players out there who can adapt and thrive in different positions but these are rare.

Examples abound and we need look no further than within our own club's medley of recent striking options..... Morientes, Cisse, Keane etc.

We don't set up to play to their strengths but try to shoehorn them into a system that they are either ill suited to or may be ill suited to.

Great players can play well in any system and can adapt.

Average players either cant or wont.

Can't say I agree with you Leon, even Gerrard who is probably as versatile as ANY great player has been. Great players are great players because they have a particular talent that makes them stand out from the rest.

Zidane - whats the point in him having great vision and passing ability if the team is told to just play long ball Wimbledon style? I know thats an extreme example but a player NEEDS to play to his strengths or he will struggle..... great player or not.

Gerrard, the great player, could play i nany position and you wouldnt notice he was not a natural left wing, right wing midfielder, right back left backl etc

I thought we were talking about systems and teams not whether Gerrard could play in a particular position?

Ask Gerrard to play with Lampard for example ....... does he look World class?

Thats why good managers build the team around great players...... to get the BEST out of the great player.

the point I was talking about was that someone said players need to be bought to fit a system.

Thats shi.te.

Good players will fit into, adapt to, or completely change into a system.

Carragher was a striker when he joined the academy. Gerrard has played right back when he started, right midfield and just off the striker and everyone seems to think he is best suited to central midfield. Ray Kennedy was a (poor) striker, and became the best left midfielder of his day. Henry was a winger and was schooled into a striker by Wenger. Rio Ferdinand was an excellent central midfielder in his youth. Pepe Reina was a stiker.

Et all.

[account deleted by request]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Top post. Agree 100%.

We should be playing to our players strengths or if we choose to play to a system, then we need to buy players whose natural game suits that system. There are players out there who can adapt and thrive in different positions but these are rare.

Examples abound and we need look no further than within our own club's medley of recent striking options..... Morientes, Cisse, Keane etc.

We don't set up to play to their strengths but try to shoehorn them into a system that they are either ill suited to or may be ill suited to.

Great players can play well in any system and can adapt.

Average players either cant or wont.

Can't say I agree with you Leon, even Gerrard who is probably as versatile as ANY great player has been. Great players are great players because they have a particular talent that makes them stand out from the rest.

Zidane - whats the point in him having great vision and passing ability if the team is told to just play long ball Wimbledon style? I know thats an extreme example but a player NEEDS to play to his strengths or he will struggle..... great player or not.

Gerrard, the great player, could play i nany position and you wouldnt notice he was not a natural left wing, right wing midfielder, right back left backl etc

I thought we were talking about systems and teams not whether Gerrard could play in a particular position?

Ask Gerrard to play with Lampard for example ....... does he look World class?

Thats why good managers build the team around great players...... to get the BEST out of the great player.

the point I was talking about was that someone said players need to be bought to fit a system.

Thats shi.te.

Good players will fit into, adapt to, or completely change into a system.

Carragher was a striker when he joined the academy. Gerrard has played right back when he started, right midfield and just off the striker and everyone seems to think he is best suited to central midfield. Ray Kennedy was a (poor) striker, and became the best left midfielder of his day. Henry was a winger and was schooled into a striker by Wenger. Rio Ferdinand was an excellent central midfielder in his youth. Pepe Reina was a stiker.

Et all.

I think we will have to agree to disagree as usual mate, don't give up though as I am sure one day we will find some "theory" or other that we can both agree with   

[Madmax]

It depends how good the team is aswel or who the players is locked with.  Players should be used to thier best position is my view. Playing in odd positions may work for certain player who are more versatile and can adapt to other areas of the field but for the majority i guess it dont work.

[Madmax]

I am suprised of the general thought about Dirk Kuyt... I think that hes an excellent player, everyone needs a Kuyt in their teams... It's like a Dutch Gatusso

  dutch gattuso.. more like dutch clown

[milou]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Top post. Agree 100%.

We should be playing to our players strengths or if we choose to play to a system, then we need to buy players whose natural game suits that system. There are players out there who can adapt and thrive in different positions but these are rare.

Examples abound and we need look no further than within our own club's medley of recent striking options..... Morientes, Cisse, Keane etc.

We don't set up to play to their strengths but try to shoehorn them into a system that they are either ill suited to or may be ill suited to.

Great players can play well in any system and can adapt.

Average players either cant or wont.

Can't say I agree with you Leon, even Gerrard who is probably as versatile as ANY great player has been. Great players are great players because they have a particular talent that makes them stand out from the rest.

Zidane - whats the point in him having great vision and passing ability if the team is told to just play long ball Wimbledon style? I know thats an extreme example but a player NEEDS to play to his strengths or he will struggle..... great player or not.

Gerrard, the great player, could play i nany position and you wouldnt notice he was not a natural left wing, right wing midfielder, right back left backl etc

I thought we were talking about systems and teams not whether Gerrard could play in a particular position?

Ask Gerrard to play with Lampard for example ....... does he look World class?

Thats why good managers build the team around great players...... to get the BEST out of the great player.

the point I was talking about was that someone said players need to be bought to fit a system.

Thats shi.te.

Good players will fit into, adapt to, or completely change into a system.

Carragher was a striker when he joined the academy. Gerrard has played right back when he started, right midfield and just off the striker and everyone seems to think he is best suited to central midfield. Ray Kennedy was a (poor) striker, and became the best left midfielder of his day. Henry was a winger and was schooled into a striker by Wenger. Rio Ferdinand was an excellent central midfielder in his youth. Pepe Reina was a stiker.

Et all.

Sorry mate I can't agree.

Your examples are mostly on young & naive players who might not even know what they were good at.. until someone pointed out to them & groomed them from there.

Once all the Pepes, Carraghers, Gerrards & Ferdinands found their best positions.. My question to you is whether we can now ask them to go back to their initial (wrong) positions and expect the same high standard they are giving now?

If "Good players will fit into, adapt to, or completely change into a system.", then why is Henry struggling in barca? What about Rush who found life & football difficult in Juventus? Was Veron too lazy to play well for Manure? Did Shevchenco just forget how to score after swapping Milan for Chelsee? How about even Gerrard who seem to reserve his best games for Liverpool and not for England?

Are/were these players not good enough, based on your argument?

I would admit there are some players who seem to be more "adaptable".. arguably Beckham or Zidane who seem to do well no matter where they play in. And there are also certain players who seem to do ok in variety of positions like Gerrard.

But they are the exceptions rather than rule IMHO. Most players need the right team, formation & manager in order to excel.

[ConnO'var]

Sorry mate I can't agree.

Your examples are mostly on young & naive players who might not even know what they were good at.. until someone pointed out to them & groomed them from there.

Once all the Pepes, Carraghers, Gerrards & Ferdinands found their best positions.. My question to you is whether we can now ask them to go back to their initial (wrong) positions and expect the same high standard they are giving now?

If "Good players will fit into, adapt to, or completely change into a system.", then why is Henry struggling in barca? What about Rush who found life & football difficult in Juventus? Was Veron too lazy to play well for Manure? Did Shevchenco just forget how to score after swapping Milan for Chelsee? How about even Gerrard who seem to reserve his best games for Liverpool and not for England?

Are/were these players not good enough, based on your argument?

I would admit there are some players who seem to be more "adaptable".. arguably Beckham or Zidane who seem to do well no matter where they play in. And there are also certain players who seem to do ok in variety of positions like Gerrard.

But they are the exceptions rather than rule IMHO. Most players need the right team, formation & manager in order to excel.

Excellent post and well reasoned.

Needless to say, I agree.

[supersub]

Ray Kennedy was a (poor) striker, and became the best left midfielder of his day.

I would dispute Ray Kennedy was a poor striker

His record for the 4 years at Arsenal and his 1st season at Anfield, was 1 goal every 3 games which was the same strike rate we got from Kevin Keegan.It was only through injury and the success of the Toshack /Keegan partnership in season 75/76 that saw Paisley begin to use Ray Kennedy as a left midfield.

[Sabre]

If "Good players will fit into, adapt to, or completely change into a system.", then why is Henry struggling in barca? What about Rush who found life & football difficult in Juventus? Was Veron too lazy to play well for Manure? Did Shevchenco just forget how to score after swapping Milan for Chelsee? How about even Gerrard who seem to reserve his best games for Liverpool and not for England?

Henry is not currently struggling at Barça. He did struggle yesteryear, reason? not related to system, he had problems with his back, he played with pain, the team at that moment wasn't clicking.


Now he's scoring, playing better, and playing a different role to the one of Arsenal. In Barcelona, he says, he has to run more.

Leonmc IMHO is right in the sense that a player like Gerrard would be a sure bet to be bought by any team, under any system. He'd be a regular starter in Real Madrid, he'd be a regular starter in a totally different Barcelona, he'd be a regular starter in the disciplined Sevilla. True quality can be fit in almost any system.

Rush? Sometimes if a 4-5-1 is not working and the lone striker isn't scoring, it's not because a 4-5-1 is wrong, but because the team isn't implementing it well. If you give no service to Rush, then you won't have goals, that's for sure.

My point, this debate is not totally black and white. I think there's quite a lot of truth in what Leon says. A formation, can suit a player better, true (look Torres),  but the very good players, normally, know to be good players even under a system that doesn't suit them totally.

[banana]

Ratings:

Reina 9
Cavalieri 5

Arbeloa 7
Carra 7
Hyypia 5
Agger 8
Skrtl 9
Aurelio 6
Degen n/a
Dossena 5
Insua 5

Lucas 6
Benayoun 7
Alonso 9
Gerrard 8
Mascherano 8
Riera 6
Pennant 5
Babel 6
Plessis 2
El Zhar 6

Kuyt 5
Torres 9
Keane 5
Ngog 4
Voronin 4


I rate 8-10 as world class
6-7 Premiership class
5 Decent
4 Poor
1-3 Useless

All players rated 5 or lower should be shown the door except youngsters like Ngog and Insua. Plessis at 2 should go despite his age. Some players like Degen and Spearing are not rated because of limited playing time.

[Owzat]

After Stoke's game it's hard to rate any of the players as world class, easily held by a side sat in the relegation zone

[Alex G.]

Now I hate Lucas Leiva, he has had all the chances of the world, and he gets even worse, he plays like a female, just like Benayoun.

Benayoun is soft, even his fellow countrymen know it. Watch this:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0k2hWuNMCY

[Reg]

How can anyone seriously rate Cavalieri as a 5 when they dont know the guy and what he is capable of?

He the best second keeper we´ve had in the last 20 years and if Pepe (god forbid) was injured or left, I wouldnt worry a jot about him taking over the gloves. 5? my a.rse.

[Reg]

Deserved his ban and should never be let back on here.

Hear Hear does nothing but abuse 90% of members of this forum and has done so for years, hes been banned about 10 times. And still gets let back on here 

yes and the mods remind me 'so was` Maradona' - so 'fo' / 'stu' / 'whatever' is now being compared to the greatest player to have kicked a ball... is he the greatest poster then mods 

Stu = Fergie.