Liverpool FC Forum

[Boocity]

Can only judge on what you've seen

Exactly, what have we seen of him to decide he should be sold

[AnfieldsGreatest]

Can only judge on what you've seen

Exactly, what have we seen of him to decide he should be sold

That is so single minded its not funny. Why buy young players??? Obviously there not going to break into the first team straight away, but you got to give them a chance. But hey if they don't improve to a first team standard within a half season, sell them??? You have to take a chance to develop players, otherwise you lose out. Rafa would not half bought N'Gog just so he could be an average player in a world class, he bought N'Gog to hopefully nuture him to become a good player, even if he doesn't become a world class player, we can still make a profit when we sell him off to another club once he has developed that is.

[Owzat]

Can only judge on what you've seen

Exactly, what have we seen of him to decide he should be sold

I think I worded my rating as "not good enough", so in that respect I just don't think he's of the high quality required to play LFC. That doesn't mean he's rubbish or never had a decent or half decent game, just that he is well below (Liverpool FC) par

Besides, if you're saying there hasn't been enough seen of N'Gog to be judged and sold, then surely it's subjective as to whether we've seen enough of Dossena, Riera, Cavalieri, Keane or anyone else signed in the summer to judge. I notice you didn't complain that others including Dossena shouldn't be judged (yet)

[Boocity]

Can only judge on what you've seen

Exactly, what have we seen of him to decide he should be sold

I think I worded my rating as "not good enough", so in that respect I just don't think he's of the high quality required to play LFC. That doesn't mean he's rubbish or never had a decent or half decent game, just that he is well below (Liverpool FC) par

Besides, if you're saying there hasn't been enough seen of N'Gog to be judged and sold, then surely it's subjective as to whether we've seen enough of Dossena, Riera, Cavalieri, Keane or anyone else signed in the summer to judge. I notice you didn't complain that others including Dossena shouldn't be judged (yet)

A couple of points here.

1. I wasn't singling your opinions out it was just the general statements about Ngog.
2. Out of the others, the only one I have concerns about is Dossena, but again he has had limited opportunities to gell with the way we play or the player around him but will admit that what we have seen has been pretty poor. Rieras done well, Keanes always been a bit hit and miss (remember the open goal he missed against us for Spurs) and Cavalieri is stand in for Reina and better than Carson.

Overall I think we have a pretty good squad that is getting better results than everyone else in the PL and thats all that matters.

[AnfieldsGreatest]

Overall I think we have a pretty good squad that is getting better results than everyone else in the PL and thats all that matters.

Spot on 

[account deleted by request]

World class: Reina, Mascherano, Gerrard, Torres, Alonso
Top class: Carragher, Reira, Hyypia, Skrtel, Agger
Good player: Arbeloa, Keane
Decent squad player: Aurelio, Kuyt, Lucas, Insua, Pennant, Benayoun, Ngog
Would prefer to see sold: Voronin, Degan, Dossena

Just a side-note that CONTEXT is important when u rate someone.. And the above are obviously based on Liverpool.

Many people think (me included) that Gerrard is world class and RIGHTLY so - but only in the context of Liverpool. If you rate him (OBJECTIVELY) as an England player, I wonder what rating he would get. And Reina can't even get a game for Spain.

Same player, different team = different performance, different rating.

I think its more Englands problems rather than Gerrards that they don't get the same level of performance from him.

Reina while not being first choice for Spain...... they also have another exceptionally good keeper, I would think is still one of the top 3 or 4 in the world (depends what you call world class I suppose ) Alonso for example is not first choice for his country and one would hardly call the player who's keeping /kept him out of the Spanish first team World class. International football is a little different I suppose.

I think most peoples views have been very good with little really to argue about apart from the more controversial category of who we should sell.

I can't disagree with what you said.

But my point is only that players do need the right environment & right team to thrive in.. I have seen too many not to believe.

For argument sake alone.. If Gerrard can't perform for England.. Do we really care if it is due to stupid manager, wrong formation, competition or WHATEVER reason? We would say too bad for him! Bcos the bottomline is simply.. he CANNOT perform in England.

And we use the same argument to bash our under-performing players all the time isn't it? Just look at Kuyt, Keane, Pennant, Benanyoun, Lucas or in the case of ex-players.. Diouf, Morientes, Cisse, Bellamy. We must remember how good they were when we bought them.. How can they forget how to play just by coming to Liverpool? Or is it down to mismanagement?

I have long been fascinated with the reason why good players can "suddenly" turn into a flop.. be it for their national team or by changing club (Henry in Barca, Veron in Manure, Shevchenco in Chelsea, Forlan in Manure). And equally, what makes a superstar (like Torres coming to Liverpool, Ronaldo going to Manure, Henry going to Arsenal).

That's why I believe in CONTEXT.

Sorry mate, I misunderstood the point you were making.

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

[ConnO'var]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Top post. Agree 100%.

We should be playing to our players strengths or if we choose to play to a system, then we need to buy players whose natural game suits that system. There are players out there who can adapt and thrive in different positions but these are rare.

Examples abound and we need look no further than within our own club's medley of recent striking options..... Morientes, Cisse, Keane etc.

We don't set up to play to their strengths but try to shoehorn them into a system that they are either ill suited to or may be ill suited to.

[Leonmc0708]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Top post. Agree 100%.

We should be playing to our players strengths or if we choose to play to a system, then we need to buy players whose natural game suits that system. There are players out there who can adapt and thrive in different positions but these are rare.

Examples abound and we need look no further than within our own club's medley of recent striking options..... Morientes, Cisse, Keane etc.

We don't set up to play to their strengths but try to shoehorn them into a system that they are either ill suited to or may be ill suited to.

Great players can play well in any system and can adapt.

Average players either cant or wont.

[zarababe]

Deserved his ban and should never be let back on here.

Hear Hear does nothing but abuse 90% of members of this forum and has done so for years, hes been banned about 10 times. And still gets let back on here 

yes and the mods remind me 'so was` Maradona' - so 'fo' / 'stu' / 'whatever' is now being compared to the greatest player to have kicked a ball... is he the greatest poster then mods 

[account deleted by request]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Top post. Agree 100%.

We should be playing to our players strengths or if we choose to play to a system, then we need to buy players whose natural game suits that system. There are players out there who can adapt and thrive in different positions but these are rare.

Examples abound and we need look no further than within our own club's medley of recent striking options..... Morientes, Cisse, Keane etc.

We don't set up to play to their strengths but try to shoehorn them into a system that they are either ill suited to or may be ill suited to.

Great players can play well in any system and can adapt.

Average players either cant or wont.

Can't say I agree with you Leon, even Gerrard who is probably as versatile as ANY great player has been. Great players are great players because they have a particular talent that makes them stand out from the rest.

Zidane - whats the point in him having great vision and passing ability if the team is told to just play long ball Wimbledon style? I know thats an extreme example but a player NEEDS to play to his strengths or he will struggle..... great player or not.

[account deleted by request]

Deserved his ban and should never be let back on here.

Hear Hear does nothing but abuse 90% of members of this forum and has done so for years, hes been banned about 10 times. And still gets let back on here 

yes and the mods remind me 'so was` Maradona' - so 'fo' / 'stu' / 'whatever' is now being compared to the greatest player to have kicked a ball... is he the greatest poster then mods 

I am not a mod ...... never have been, never will be.

It was meant as a joke Zara, sorry if you took it the wrong way 

[Toffeehater]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Nail on the head right there , top post .

[Leonmc0708]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Top post. Agree 100%.

We should be playing to our players strengths or if we choose to play to a system, then we need to buy players whose natural game suits that system. There are players out there who can adapt and thrive in different positions but these are rare.

Examples abound and we need look no further than within our own club's medley of recent striking options..... Morientes, Cisse, Keane etc.

We don't set up to play to their strengths but try to shoehorn them into a system that they are either ill suited to or may be ill suited to.

Great players can play well in any system and can adapt.

Average players either cant or wont.

Can't say I agree with you Leon, even Gerrard who is probably as versatile as ANY great player has been. Great players are great players because they have a particular talent that makes them stand out from the rest.

Zidane - whats the point in him having great vision and passing ability if the team is told to just play long ball Wimbledon style? I know thats an extreme example but a player NEEDS to play to his strengths or he will struggle..... great player or not.

Gerrard, the great player, could play i nany position and you wouldnt notice he was not a natural left wing, right wing midfielder, right back left backl etc

[account deleted by request]

I think the players a player is playing with and the role the player is asked to undertake have a large effect on their performances. Even top class/world class players need the right pass and enough of the ball , and players around them making the right moves to demonstrate their abilities.

I personally think a lot of players fail because they are asked to undertake a different role than the one that has made them famous.

From your examples :- Henry made his name at Arsenal as a striker and was asked to play on the left by Barca.

Veron made his name as a central playmaker but was played mainly on the right by the mancs or as a defensive midfield player.

Shevchenco was a striker who liked to run from deep, whereas at Chelsea he was more often than not asked to play as a target man.

So while I agree that they need the "right environment & right team to thrive", I also think managers buy players who are successful and then change their role shouldn't expect them to adapt as quickly, easily or in some cases .....at all.

Would Torres for example have been as successful if when he arrived he had been asked to take on the right wing position instead of Kuyt? Would we still be saying he's world class?

Top post. Agree 100%.

We should be playing to our players strengths or if we choose to play to a system, then we need to buy players whose natural game suits that system. There are players out there who can adapt and thrive in different positions but these are rare.

Examples abound and we need look no further than within our own club's medley of recent striking options..... Morientes, Cisse, Keane etc.

We don't set up to play to their strengths but try to shoehorn them into a system that they are either ill suited to or may be ill suited to.

Great players can play well in any system and can adapt.

Average players either cant or wont.

Can't say I agree with you Leon, even Gerrard who is probably as versatile as ANY great player has been. Great players are great players because they have a particular talent that makes them stand out from the rest.

Zidane - whats the point in him having great vision and passing ability if the team is told to just play long ball Wimbledon style? I know thats an extreme example but a player NEEDS to play to his strengths or he will struggle..... great player or not.

Gerrard, the great player, could play i nany position and you wouldnt notice he was not a natural left wing, right wing midfielder, right back left backl etc

I thought we were talking about systems and teams not whether Gerrard could play in a particular position?

Ask Gerrard to play with Lampard for example ....... does he look World class?

Thats why good managers build the team around great players...... to get the BEST out of the great player.

[johnymarcu]

I am suprised of the general thought about Dirk Kuyt... I think that hes an excellent player, everyone needs a Kuyt in their teams... It's like a Dutch Gatusso