Liverpool FC Forum

[Lando_Griffin]

reina - very good buy
alonso - very good buy
mascherano - very good buy?

agger - good to very good buy (still young still have room for improvement)

kuyt - good buy

arbeloa - decent buy
crouch - decent buy
garcia - decent buy (only because he somehow scores crucial goals otherwise average buy)

paletta - average buy (jurty is still out)
pennant - average buy
bellamy - average buy

gonzalez - bad buy
morientes - bad buy
kronkamp - bad buy
josemi - bad buy
nunez - bad negotiation (deal with owen)

so to me rafa's ability in buying suitable players for liverpool is still average...like 50/50... he's still not as good as wenger IMO... I compare him to wenger because arsenal's budget is about the same as us... mourinho and ferguson does better than rafa but this is because they had more money...

For Arsenal, Wenger has bought (not loaned) 70 players, for a total outlay of £161,890,000. (Recouping £27.3m since the summer of 2004.)

That's an average of £2.3m per player.

Rafa has signed 39 players, for a total outlay of £86,755,000.

That's an average of £2.2m per player. (Recouping £40.53m since his arrival in June 2004.)

Therefore, Wenger has spent £1.9m per player after sales are included, where Rafa has spent £1.2m per player after sales.)

Bearing in mind that the market has changed since 1996, with bigger transfer money being exchanged over recent years, I think it's time to lay this "Wenger is brilliant in the transfer market" to bed.

Rafa has spent less on players, yet won more than that French c*nt. (Obviously only comparing their trophy records from 2004 onwards.)

Now that the golden boy of transfers has been exposed as anything but, can we please concentrate on our team, rather than that wrinkly tw*ts?

Rafa is a match for anyone - fact.

[JC_81]

I think Benitez has done ok in the transfer market.  He's made mistakes like all managers do, but overall I'd say our squad now is far stronger than the one Houllier left behind.

I still maintain that this is a huge season for Benitez personally though.  If we do buy Torres for 25 million, he flops and we have a poor season, Benitez will be out the door next summer or at least be heading that way.  If we buy Torres for 25 million, he bangs in 20 goals and we win the league or at least are in the running til the end, then everyone will say, 'there you go, look what happens when you give him money to spend, class manager'.  Very fine line between success and failure.

[Lando_Griffin]

Just a thought, but I actually think that Rafa is uncomfortable with big stars in his dressing room.
Hence his ambivalence to Owen and his need to tame 'StevieG'
My guess is that he only want's palyers who see it his way, I think he would struggle with a Henry or Anelka.
Obviously he believes that Torres is malleable enough and Tevez is too much of a threat to his position.

Bellamy and Pennant.

'Nuff said.

LG, you miss the point. Bellamy and Pennant may be bad lad's and even loudmouths etc. But they do not have the respect of the rest of the dressing room in football terms. Most Big Stars carry the rest of the dressing room with them, that's why McClaren drpped Beckham to stamp his authority on the England dressing Room !
Rafa now has Stevie G under control, didn't mind losing Owen etc.
Rafa will now be cautious about bringing in a new big name who might be a threat to his authority. I think he feels a lot more comfortable with players who feel that they owe him something. Houllier suffered from the same sort of inferiority complex, which probably comes from never having played at the top himself. Maureen and Fergie have the same complex but overcome it with bravado and become almost like bullies.

So let me get this straight:

Rafa doesn't want someone who has the respect of his team mates, nor the experience to offer their own opinions and guidance?

So then - why are we trying to sign the Spanish International captain of Athletico, who is adored by their fans and regailed by their players?

And, why is Carragher one of Rafa's favoured players?

More damningly - why did he re-sign Fowler, the lad known as "God" to his peers?

From what I understand, Gerrard and Carragher are among the first people Rafa consults regarding prospective signings.

I think he just doesn't fancy certain players, to be honest. If someone was giving it the old Billy Big-B*llocks, I can't imagine anyone wanting them in their squad.

To suggest that Rafa is intimidated by any player is a bit short-sighted, IMHO. He just wants the right mentality. He wants a player who will run through fire for the tea.

And who can blame him?

[redtrader74]

I said £125m was nearer to £200m in real terms. If you attempt to compare, you cannot conveniently ignore Cisse and Diouf, however embarrassing it is.

For the sake of the arguement I'm making, yes I clearly can as Diouf and Cisse were both signed after Houller's third season.

Compare the records to date and you'll see an alarming similarity in terms of honours won yet you'll see Houllier done alot better in the market.

Lets just say the Torres rumours true and he becomes a £25,000,000 flop...

Houllier had to have a high turn over of players to improve the squad over the short term in order to attract better players for the future and up untill 2002/2003 he was successful in doing that.

During the summer off 2002 he got it badly wrong in the market which is where the decline set in. I saw Benitez make similar (only not as glaringly bad) mistakes last summer and I really fear he's about to make the same mistake again this summer.

Houlliers signings were decent, but we can look back at 5-6-7-8 years of good service from them and evaluate their success, as yet the longest any Rafa player has been here is going to be 3 years. In hindsight, 6 years from now we just might be saying how great Rafa signings were. 

They both had to have a high turnover of signings, both inherited poor sqauds. I think comparing the signings is fruitless, the circumstances are totally different now than 9-10 years ago. Then only us, manu, asnl, occasionally barcodes would have the money to spend, now the prem is the richest league by a mile, and the competition for signings is greater. Would spurs have ever got a berbatov then, or whu offer the equivalent of 17m for a player, no chance.

All managers make mistakes, Rafa is not exceptional in his failings, most importantly for me is that he gets rid quickly, and doesn't lose much money on them. Sissoko, Crouch, Agger, Pennant, Bellamy have all increased in value, the remainder left have probably held their value.

[LFC2007]

Benitez hasn't come close to Houllier yet in terms of good transfers.

[hello_red]

we are all fracking psychologists now are we?

Rafa obviously has an inferiority complex because you say so.

I think he would do fine in the upper reaches of transfer market. Judging by his 10 mill signings he has done very well, Alonso isnow worth about 22 mill and Kuyt WILL be worth about 20 mill soon enough.

Peace

[Bad Bob]

My issue with Benitez mate is crystal clear. For the money he's spent on certain players, there has been a hell of alot better out there by absoloute country miles. Thats what its all about. Simple as.

Going to have to call you on that then - obviously you'd have had Ashton ahead of Crouch, but who else?

Woodgate, Ashton, Bullard, Anelka, Rosicky, Arteta, Sol Campbell, Gallas, Parker, Ryan Taylor... theres loads of players who've moved clubs over the last few seasons that we haven't looked at who are far better than what we have and all went within a few million or so of the players we ended up with.

Stu, you've been talking a lot about us signing top quality players to compete with Chelsea and Man U so let's approach your list the same way that you approach our current starting 11: how many of the lads you've named would get into one of the other top 4 teams?

1) Woodgate.   Well, if it were only an issue of talent than certainly.  As his fitness is a major factor, however, than no--as demonstrated by the fact that none of the top 4 tried to prise him away from Boro this spring.

2) Ashton.  Nope.

3) Bullard. Nope.

4) Anelka.  Not any more (as his move to Bolton demonstrated).

5) Rosicky.  Yes.  But did he fill a gap that we need filling last summer?

6) Arteta.  Potentially, IMO, but do we need another CM?

7) Campbell.  Not any more--he's still good enough to start at the likes of Newcastle but is he good enough to start ahead of Agger?  If not, would he want to sit on our bench rather than get a game elsewhere?

8) Gallas. Yes.  But would Chelsea have considered selling him to us and would he have come?

9) Parker.  No and do we need another CM?

10) Ryan Taylor.  Don't know him, TBH.

Perhaps, then, none of these players is the kind of quality player we now need to take the next step.  As for being better than the signings we did make at the time, that would require a case-by-case analysis but one that took into account whether these players were even available at the time we signed our lads, especially in the cases where Rafa was filling glaring holes in the squad that needed to be addressed ASAP.  In most cases, I doubt it.

[Jimmymac]

curious as to why the nunez/owen transfer is included here, so far as i understood it that deal was already well under way when Rafa arrived. I'm sure he was even quoted as saying something along the lines of he wanted owen to stay but it was already too far advanced...

Plus the likes of Morientes is a bit harsh to blame rafa as being poor in the market on that. I doubt anyone could have predicted he would be such a flop, not a galatico of his stature anyway. I put that transfer alongside the likes of Veron and Schevchenko. Any of us would have jumped at the chance to sign them initially and could never have expected them to be such complete ups....

[ivor_the_injun]

Woodgate, Ashton, Bullard, Anelka, Rosicky, Arteta, Sol Campbell, Gallas, Parker, Ryan Taylor... theres loads of players who've moved clubs over the last few seasons that we haven't looked at who are far better than what we have and all went within a few million or so of the players we ended up with.

Woodgate would've been a huge gamble at the time, although looking back the loan deal Boro wangled proved a very smart deal. Sol Campbell was a good signing for Portsmouth, but one that could've gone either way after his problems at Arsenal. Gallas was never going to happen - the whole Cole/Gallas thing was a mess best left for Chelsea and Arsenal to deal with.

Would Ashton and Bullard have been good signings, particularly with the benefit of hindsight? Ashton has been almost constantly injured for a year and a half, Bullard for an entire season... when they play they're good players, but if we'd signed Ashton ahead of Crouch two summers ago, we'd have only had about 2 months of football out of him at this point.

Anelka I've covered in another thread - he's good enough and young enough, but I really don't think he'd take well to rotation at all. I think he's content to be a big fish in a little pond like Bolton for now.

Rosicky is a class act, but he's seriously underwhelmed at Arsenal for me. I thought he was going to be an outstanding signing, but it's just not happened. File under the likes of Ballack for lack of adaptability to the Prem on current (albeit limited) evidence.

Arteta is better than Everton, no question, and for the money paid Rafa did miss a trick, particularly as he came from Real Sociedad.

I'm not sure who you'd have had Scott Parker ahead of - Sissoko I assume? He was moving for £10m a couple of seasons ago, and when you look at our depth in central midfield now, I can't see the logic of arguing in his favour now. Hindsight favours Rafa on that one, I reckon.

Ryan Taylor I'll take your word on as I've only seen MOTD-style bits and pieces.

It's all a matter of opinion, and it is easy to say "this guy moved for this, which is close to what we paid for this guy". The mechanics and politics of football transfers these days doesn't necessarily mean that a move for a player between one club and another could've been bettered by us - Arteta's transfer in particular (if memory serves) was a last minute deadline day shocker that nobody saw coming outside Goodison. Too many think the transfer market works like Championship Manager these days, and it's infinitely more complicated than that.

[ivor_the_injun]

curious as to why the nunez/owen transfer is included here, so far as i understood it that deal was already well under way when Rafa arrived. I'm sure he was even quoted as saying something along the lines of he wanted owen to stay but it was already too far advanced...

Plus the likes of Morientes is a bit harsh to blame rafa as being poor in the market on that. I doubt anyone could have predicted he would be such a flop, not a galatico of his stature anyway. I put that transfer alongside the likes of Veron and Schevchenko. Any of us would have jumped at the chance to sign them initially and could never have expected them to be such complete ups....

I think the Owen saga is best left from this thread to be honest. I think the move would've gone through whatever - it would certainly be harsh to saddle Rafa with the blame for it.

[Jimmymac]

definately, it was out of rafa's hand by the time he arrived...

[ivor_the_injun]

I think fundamentally everyone in this thread is on the same page. We can quibble over the exact hit/miss ratio, but all told we can probably all agree that Rafa's done alright in some deals, not so well in others, and all told we're possibly not in a drastically better situation squadwise than we were than when he first arrived. Certainly not sufficiently improved to bring us the Prem, put it that way.

With decent money hopefully at his disposal, this summer is a big litmus test for Rafa's ability in the transfer market, that's for sure. If we get to August and our squad isn't significantly better than it was for the CL final, Rafa, Parry, Gillett and Hicks will have let us down badly.

[Lando_Griffin]

Speaking of flops - Sylvain Wiltord.

In for £13m, out for a big fat f*cking ZERO.

Or Robert Pires? How much did that Frog magician make on his transfer? MINUS £6m.

But still - he's BRILLIANT in the transfer market, don'tcha know?

[Red Macgregor]

I am not sure that Rafa, really understands strikers and their game, patently he is much more comfortable with midfield players and defenders.

[ivor_the_injun]

Speaking of flops - Sylvain Wiltord.

In for £13m, out for a big fat f*cking ZERO.

Or Robert Pires? How much did that Frog magician make on his transfer? MINUS £6m.

But still - he's BRILLIANT in the transfer market, don'tcha know?

It makes me laugh with Arsenal - they're notoriously cagey about the transfer fees they pay. Frequently you'll see that they've brought players in for an "undisclosed fee".

If you'd paid £5.5m for Manuel Almunia with view to him dislodging Lehmann, you'd keep a lid on it too.