Liverpool FC Forum

[ivor_the_injun]

The other point Ivor...

To strengthen the "back up" you don't go and sign back up do you.

You sign first teamers and keep the current first teamers as back up.

If I was to have Agger, Carragher, Hyypia and Palletta and was to sign Woodgate, it would be Palletta going out the door to make way. Not Agger and Palletta.

Same for example with Kewell and Gonzalez. I wouldn't Keep Gonzalez as backup if we signed Robben (for example) or I wouldn't go and look for antoher player to replace him. Kewell would then take Gonzalez place.

Its about improving the first 11. As always. With class players who will take us to the next level. Simple as.

It depends what you mean by "back up".

Players like this Lucas kid (who I don't know a great deal about in fairness) - he sounds to me like someone Rafa thinks can come in and do a job, while still having room to develop and become a fully fledged first teamer in a year or two. A player that Rafa thinks will improve the first 11 in the long term, but who for now is a genuinely competitive option - that's what I'm talking about.

By your rationale, we'd pretty much need to buy a new first team except for Carra, Gerrard, Reina and Alonso. I don't hold to that. We need players that can come in and let the team play without missing a beat. Zenden isn't in that category. Dudek isn't in that category. Paletta certainly isn't in that category.

Yes, we need signings to go straight into the first 11, but our first 11 throughout the season will be a hell of a lot if we make our second 11 less embarrassing than it has been at times this year.

[Elchris]

Just a thought, but I actually think that Rafa is uncomfortable with big stars in his dressing room.
Hence his ambivalence to Owen and his need to tame 'StevieG'
My guess is that he only want's palyers who see it his way, I think he would struggle with a Henry or Anelka.
Obviously he believes that Torres is malleable enough and Tevez is too much of a threat to his position.

[Stu.Murph]

I really can't be arsed going into detail today as I'm not in the mood. Look at the transfers in Houllier's first three years to Benitez. Look at the money spent to the quality of players brought in. Think about the improvements made...

I meant less cash to work with than the opposition, obviously.

Comparing his spending to Houllier's reign is absolutely pointless. Look at how Chelsea and Man U have moved the spending goalposts FFS. £31m for a central defender in Ferdinand... £24m for Drogba... apparently disposable players like Shevchenko and Veron. We think it's a victory when we make 10p on a player like Baros, but these f*ckers p*ss away losses of £10m on a player and shrug their shoulders.

I've made the point before about Arsenal - people bang on about Wenger being a genius with nurturing younger players, while overlooking the fact that he's bringing them to the club for £5m, £7m, £10m...Theo Walcott cost Arsenal £2m less than the most we've ever paid for a player.

The point about moving the team on is fair enough, but it's not like there have been many reasonably priced peak-era Owen-alikes on the market.
Ditto Babbel - a great player, but Rafa rates Finnan and so do I.

Likewise Hyypia - he's not in his mid-to-late 20s anymore, and you have to move on. I'd personally say that Agger was about as good as we could have got for the money paid last year, but that's just my opinion.

As for Hamann - how do you top the best player in world football in that position? Answer - you can't. We've got Alonso and Mascherano now though, not like-for-like by any means, but I'll console myself with them to be honest with you.

The team hasn't kicked on, I agree. But we simply haven't been able to compete in terms of transfer fees and wages in recent years, and a gulf has opened. That's why we have new owners, and that's why Rafa needs to earn his corn this summer.

We've had plenty of money to improve mate.

We spent £30,000,000 last summer and ended up with a worse team than what we had the season before because Rafa signed the wrong players and the wrong calibre of player.

I've seen if before with Houllier and I saw it again with Rafa last summer. Houllier could only take us so far then lacked the balls to take us to the next level and I feel thats the way its going with Benitez unfortunately.

My issue with Benitez mate is crystal clear. For the money he's spent on certain players, there has been a hell of alot better out there by absoloute country miles. Thats what its all about. Simple as.

[parchpea]

I think Benitez can handle any players and the star men make your job much easier thats for sure.

Rafa would be in dreamland if he could field a team of wold beaters but unfortunately we are not in that league financially.

His buys have been a right mixed bag overall but not one of them has lit the touch paper and made a real name for themselves at Liverpool.

Our better players are the guys that have been with us long term.

If he had managed to bring in 2 or 3 real gems then it would have made a hell of a difference to us but none of his signings have made a big impact.

Benitez will be well contacted in Spain but for my money needs to look at recruting players from elswhere a little more.

To summarise I feel his record in the transfer market is ok but I had hoped for better when he took the job.

[LFC2007]

It's all subjective Stu, what you consider a bad buy is not what most on this forum consider a bad buy. I consider Sissoko a very good buy, along with Agger, Kuyt, Reina and Alonso. If you go by their value alone it's likely they will all have increased by a lot.

In my view the calibre of player purchased by Benitez has been distinctly better than that of Houllier.

[Lando_Griffin]

Just a thought, but I actually think that Rafa is uncomfortable with big stars in his dressing room.
Hence his ambivalence to Owen and his need to tame 'StevieG'
My guess is that he only want's palyers who see it his way, I think he would struggle with a Henry or Anelka.
Obviously he believes that Torres is malleable enough and Tevez is too much of a threat to his position.

Bellamy and Pennant.

'Nuff said.

[Stu.Murph]

The other point Ivor...

To strengthen the "back up" you don't go and sign back up do you.

You sign first teamers and keep the current first teamers as back up.

If I was to have Agger, Carragher, Hyypia and Palletta and was to sign Woodgate, it would be Palletta going out the door to make way. Not Agger and Palletta.

Same for example with Kewell and Gonzalez. I wouldn't Keep Gonzalez as backup if we signed Robben (for example) or I wouldn't go and look for antoher player to replace him. Kewell would then take Gonzalez place.

Its about improving the first 11. As always. With class players who will take us to the next level. Simple as.

It depends what you mean by "back up".

Players like this Lucas kid (who I don't know a great deal about in fairness) - he sounds to me like someone Rafa thinks can come in and do a job, while still having room to develop and become a fully fledged first teamer in a year or two. A player that Rafa thinks will improve the first 11 in the long term, but who for now is a genuinely competitive option - that's what I'm talking about.

By your rationale, we'd pretty much need to buy a new first team except for Carra, Gerrard, Reina and Alonso. I don't hold to that. We need players that can come in and let the team play without missing a beat. Zenden isn't in that category. Dudek isn't in that category. Paletta certainly isn't in that category.

Yes, we need signings to go straight into the first 11, but our first 11 throughout the season will be a hell of a lot if we make our second 11 less embarrassing than it has been at times this year.

Players Lucas are exactly what I'm on about? Why bother? We've already got Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano and Sissoko... Whats the point in signing yet another player for this position. Yet another £7,000,000 spent on a player we don't need. I wouldn't mind if we had a perfect squad in other area's but the fact is he should be concentrating on the weakest area's first, he isn't doing that.

By my rationale mate, I've said it time and time again we need 4-6 top players to become a seriously good side. We aren't far away, we have the "squad players" and a good core, we just need to balance it off at the top end now. We don't really have any bad players left with the exception of one or two. I like the defence and am happy with the cover should we sign a top class centre half. If we don't then I still feel we'll suffer a hell of a lot away from home, much like this season.

Upfront aswell we need a change. A complete change in both personel and attitude. I'm sick of hearing the works hard, does this , does that , different arguements. Owen wasn't "different", Fowler wasn't "different", they were simply just class. Thats what we need. Get two strikers in who can and will score goals and make things happen when you need it the most and against the good sides.

The players I wanted us to sign would have taken us to that next level without question and I don't for one second think they were out of reach. The problem is people seem to think we can win the league with mediocre players, we can't and we won't. The last team to do that were Blackburn due to a solid defence, two players of Pennant's ability on the wings, one of the games best ever strikers and a good strike partner who played up there with him.

I'm not saying people like Crouch, Sissoko and Agger were bad signings. I'm quite simply saying if thats the best he can offer then we'll never win the league with him in charge.

As for Benitez signings being as good as Houllier's:

McAllister - Free
Babbel - Free
Hyypia - £2,500,000
Henchoz - £3,750,000
Riise - £4,500,000
Finnan - £3,000,000 (maybe £2,000,000 not sure)

To name the ones off the top of my head.

Benitez hasn't come close to Houllier yet in terms of good transfers. The only think Benitez has on Houllier is he hasn't wasted a great deal on yet. The dickheads who couldn't see Houllier for what he was remember the last two years, they conveniently forget the first three 3. Rafa's been here three years, he has a very similar record (after taking over a better team aswell) and I strongly suggest people wake upto that reality.

[redtrader74]

Comparing Houlliers £125m+ spend against Rafa is illogical, Football inflation (Not air into a ball, the Economic term)  would mean in real terms that value was nearer £200m, maybe more. Also the increased spending power of Chelsea, Spurs, Westham etc has brought them very close to us financially, and forcing prices up further, whether they compete with us for a player or whether we attempt to buy from them, Rafa's spending in comparison to Houllier in real terms is vastly inferior so far.

[ivor_the_injun]

My issue with Benitez mate is crystal clear. For the money he's spent on certain players, there has been a hell of alot better out there by absoloute country miles. Thats what its all about. Simple as.

Going to have to call you on that then - obviously you'd have had Ashton ahead of Crouch, but who else?

[Stu.Murph]

Comparing Houlliers £125+ spend against Rafa is illogical, Football inflation (Not air into a ball, the Economic term)  would mean in real terms that value was nearer £200m. Also the increased spending power of Chelsea, Spurs, Westham etc has brought them very close to us financially, and forcing prices up further, whether they compete with us for a player or whether we attempt to but from them, Rafa's spending in comparison to Houllier in real terms is vastly inferior so far.

In your opinion.

How you work out that £25,000,000 over the last 10 years is the equivilant of £200,000,000 is 100% typical of the over exageration when people talk about figures and Houllier's reign.

The fact is the world record transfer fee has not been set for a number of years, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember alot of players going for at around the £20,000,000 mark when Houllier was in charge.

Taking away two of Houllier's biggest signings in Sissy and Diouf, which were a joke in all fairness, all of sudden his spending looks fairly average. £20,000,000 a season was only enough to by you one world class player and maybe a squad player.

Like I've said though, people conveniently overlook the facts.

[redtrader74]

I said £125m was nearer to £200m in real terms, its in quote you posted, apology accepted! If you attempt to compare, you cannot conveniently ignore Cisse and Diouf, however embarrassing it is.

[Stu.Murph]

My issue with Benitez mate is crystal clear. For the money he's spent on certain players, there has been a hell of alot better out there by absoloute country miles. Thats what its all about. Simple as.

Going to have to call you on that then - obviously you'd have had Ashton ahead of Crouch, but who else?

Woodgate, Ashton, Bullard, Anelka, Rosicky, Arteta, Sol Campbell, Gallas, Parker, Ryan Taylor... theres loads of players who've moved clubs over the last few seasons that we haven't looked at who are far better than what we have and all went within a few million or so of the players we ended up with.

[Wilhelmsson]

I really can't be arsed going into detail today as I'm not in the mood. Look at the transfers in Houllier's first three years to Benitez. Look at the money spent to the quality of players brought in. Think about the improvements made...

I meant less cash to work with than the opposition, obviously.

Comparing his spending to Houllier's reign is absolutely pointless. Look at how Chelsea and Man U have moved the spending goalposts FFS. £31m for a central defender in Ferdinand... £24m for Drogba... apparently disposable players like Shevchenko and Veron. We think it's a victory when we make 10p on a player like Baros, but these f*ckers p*ss away losses of £10m on a player and shrug their shoulders.

I've made the point before about Arsenal - people bang on about Wenger being a genius with nurturing younger players, while overlooking the fact that he's bringing them to the club for £5m, £7m, £10m...Theo Walcott cost Arsenal £2m less than the most we've ever paid for a player.

The point about moving the team on is fair enough, but it's not like there have been many reasonably priced peak-era Owen-alikes on the market.
Ditto Babbel - a great player, but Rafa rates Finnan and so do I.

Likewise Hyypia - he's not in his mid-to-late 20s anymore, and you have to move on. I'd personally say that Agger was about as good as we could have got for the money paid last year, but that's just my opinion.

As for Hamann - how do you top the best player in world football in that position? Answer - you can't. We've got Alonso and Mascherano now though, not like-for-like by any means, but I'll console myself with them to be honest with you.

The team hasn't kicked on, I agree. But we simply haven't been able to compete in terms of transfer fees and wages in recent years, and a gulf has opened. That's why we have new owners, and that's why Rafa needs to earn his corn this summer.

We've had plenty of money to improve mate.

We spent £30,000,000 last summer and ended up with a worse team than what we had the season before because Rafa signed the wrong players and the wrong calibre of player.

I've seen if before with Houllier and I saw it again with Rafa last summer. Houllier could only take us so far then lacked the balls to take us to the next level and I feel thats the way its going with Benitez unfortunately.

My issue with Benitez mate is crystal clear. For the money he's spent on certain players, there has been a hell of alot better out there by absoloute country miles. Thats what its all about. Simple as.

Rafa has had an adequate amount of money to spend since his arrival, I certainly feel for the money he has spent he could have spent the money in a more effective manner and in a more sufficient manner. As I say in my first post, I felt that perhaps Rafa should have spent his budget on one or two players who would add something to our first team, rather than splitting his money into smaller segments to fund the transfers of fringe players and squad players.

In Rafa’s defence, there’s a valid point to be made that we needed to bolster the squad to handle injuries which with hindsight we can see that Rafa’s first season in charge saw the team hampered with injuries. With respect you seem ignorant to the point that Mourinho and Ferguson have spent the equivalent of our transfer budget on a single player, so in this respect £30m is not by in large a suitable budget when wanting to challenge for the title. You seem to want top class players, as we all do, which is why we have to pay top rate prices for players and a transfer budget of £30m in this day and age of football for a club with our ambition is somewhat miserly.

Rafa has indeed made mistakes in the transfer market; he also found some gems in the transfer market like every manager, with hindsight it’s easy to pick out faults, who would have thought Morientes would have ended up being a major flop? Rafa has gambled to a small degree and at times it’s paid off and at times it hasn’t, that’s football.

The difference between Rafa and Houllier is that Rafa can acknowledge when a transfer has been a mistake and tries to rectify his mistakes. Your theory about Rafa can be tested this season to see whether or not he has what it takes to push a forceful challenge in the Premiership, this transfer window is key, because if the reports are correct and we are able to offer £24m-£27m for one single player than Rafa has no excuses of not spending where needed.

[Stu.Murph]

I said £125m was nearer to £200m in real terms. If you attempt to compare, you cannot conveniently ignore Cisse and Diouf, however embarrassing it is.

For the sake of the arguement I'm making, yes I clearly can as Diouf and Cisse were both signed after Houller's third season.

Compare the records to date and you'll see an alarming similarity in terms of honours won yet you'll see Houllier done alot better in the market.

Lets just say the Torres rumours true and he becomes a £25,000,000 flop...

Houllier had to have a high turn over of players to improve the squad over the short term in order to attract better players for the future and up untill 2002/2003 he was successful in doing that.

During the summer off 2002 he got it badly wrong in the market which is where the decline set in. I saw Benitez make similar (only not as glaringly bad) mistakes last summer and I really fear he's about to make the same mistake again this summer.

[Red Macgregor]

Just a thought, but I actually think that Rafa is uncomfortable with big stars in his dressing room.
Hence his ambivalence to Owen and his need to tame 'StevieG'
My guess is that he only want's palyers who see it his way, I think he would struggle with a Henry or Anelka.
Obviously he believes that Torres is malleable enough and Tevez is too much of a threat to his position.

Bellamy and Pennant.

'Nuff said.

LG, you miss the point. Bellamy and Pennant may be bad lad's and even loudmouths etc. But they do not have the respect of the rest of the dressing room in football terms. Most Big Stars carry the rest of the dressing room with them, that's why McClaren drpped Beckham to stamp his authority on the England dressing Room !
Rafa now has Stevie G under control, didn't mind losing Owen etc.
Rafa will now be cautious about bringing in a new big name who might be a threat to his authority. I think he feels a lot more comfortable with players who feel that they owe him something. Houllier suffered from the same sort of inferiority complex, which probably comes from never having played at the top himself. Maureen and Fergie have the same complex but overcome it with bravado and become almost like bullies.