Liverpool FC Forum

[Wilhelmsson]

getting back to his transfer policy, no way could he have bought 3/4 great players rather than 8/9 squad players, u have to take injuries/rotation into account, say 2/3 of those great players get injured at the same time, very possible, then where does that leave us??? our squad is much stronger now than when houllier left us and rafa rightly pointed out that now we need one or two quality additions cos the foundations are there, so lets just wait n see who he manages to bring!

No one has said we should have bought three or four accomplished players into the team, who can afford to sign three or four accomplished players on a transfer budget of £30m? With a £30m transfer budget, (which is what I gather he has had to spend every season) he should have spent the budget more wisely IMO, it’s miserly for a team of Liverpool’s stature, but it’s not an inflexible budget to work from.

The signings of players like Josemi, Pellegrino, Nunez in part exchange was a waste of resources. Benitez should have placed some of the reserve team players understudies for the likes of Finnan and Hyypia; this would have tested them (the seasoned professionals) just as much as Josemi and Benitez wouldn’t have needed to waste resources. The sum of £2m we paid for Josemi, isn’t much in terms of money in football, £2m is nothing, but that £2m could have been put into a transfer fee for a player who would have made a difference to our starting eleven. We spent £10m on Alonso, which has proved to be great signing; Benitez could have spent £14m on a striker or winger and Luis Garcia would have been more than enough. That’s three transfers that would aid our team for the better.

Now there is nothing wrong with signing a fringe player(s), but these signings should be done after the starting eleven has been improved and fixed in the areas needed. The point about injuries is a valid one and (I think) I said in one of my earlier posts that some of the squad player signings were indeed useful in that respect; I just feel that our reserve team players could have filled the fringe void in the squad without having to dip into our pocket. I guess now this matter is rather trivial as Rafa has money to spend under Gillett and Hicks.

The squad is definitely better with Rafa’s presence then it was under Houllier (the last two seasons), but I don’t understand the comparison between the two. Football is like a Chameleon, it’s always changing with the times and there is no point in comparing the two manager’s transfers as times have changed. This said Benitez hasn’t built upon the season where we finished a point behind Man U.

Last season was a bad season in terms of transfers, we had £30m to spend and we spent £6m on a one season wonder in Bellamy, £6.7m on Pennant, that £12.7m was wasted IMO. Kuyt was an acceptable signing of £10m-£11m and Gonzales cost in the region of £2m-£3m. The signings of Gonzales and Kuyt cost on average £13m, by my maths (which is terrible) we would have had £17m left (if we didn’t sign Pennant and Bellamy) this substantial amount of money could have been spent on a top class striker.

The right midfield wasn’t a problem as Gerrard can play there, sure Gerrard on the right isn’t maximising all of his strengths, but he was and is a damn sight better than Jermaine Pennant. Any money we made from transfers out could have gone on signing a few fringe players.

I don’t want to sound over-critical of Benitez; I like Benitez and support him to the fullest, and however I don’t believe for a second that Benitez has maximised our miserly resources to the fullest extent. He has spent well in patches and been wasteful in others, I know he likes his rotation and likes a big squad, but I felt he went out and got anyone he could instead of building bit by bit. After all it’s not like Parry and Moores placed pressure on Benitez to impress from the start, they gave him time.

This is all in the past and I have rambled on too much in this post, if you have gotten this far then well done, I guess hindsight helps in many ways, but I hope Benitez signs accomplished players instead of signing fringe players or players on the lower end of the transfer market. As I have stated previously, I will be casting judgement on Rafa at the end of this season, if we haven’t improved drastically upon last season’s slump, then I’ll be asking some questions of the ‘tactical wizard’.

[Redrider]

Another point to make is Rafa's ability to make current players better than they were before he arrived.

Not altogether true. He is good with defenders, but less impressive with the midfield and outstandingly poor with forwards.
He is obsessed with wing play and has failed miserably with StevieG and also failed to sign a decent winger for either flank.
His expectations with Crouch remain a mystery, is he a striker, a link man, a target man or a central midfielder ?
He failed to utilise the best of Robbie Fowler !

Rafa is defintely not as good as his publicity!!

Would I swap him for someone else ? Well no !!

Would I be sorry if he left ? Well I would be lining up a replacement as we speak !!

[Bad Bob]

Kuyt was an acceptable signing of £10m-£11m and Gonzales cost in the region of £2m-£3m. The signings of Gonzales and Kuyt cost on average £13m, by my maths (which is terrible) we would have had £17m left (if we didn’t sign Pennant and Bellamy) this substantial amount of money could have been spent on a top class striker.

And which "top class" striker were you thinking was available last summer for 17 million?

Look our financial reality over the last few seasons has required compromises.  We could have blown all 30 million (if indeed that's an accurate figure) on 1 star player, with maybe enough left over for a fringe player but we've had gaps all over the park that needed plugging over the last two seasons.  One striker wasn't going to be enough last season.  We also needed wingers, as the injuries to Kewell, Garcia and Aurelio demonstrated.  Plus, it would be nice to be able to play Gerrard in his preferred and most effective position every now and again.  It gets tiresome to read people diminishing the amount of work that needed to be done in the last two seasons to get the squad into shape.  We needed to sign players in every department of the pitch and have back ups in case they got injured.  And, no, relying on the kids from the reserves to step in and keep us challenging on multiple fronts in the event of an injury to a first-teamer is not the answer.  As limited as he is, I'm glad we had Zenden available to play LM in Kewell's absence against Chelsea and Milan than one of the lads from the reserves.  Ask yourself this: would we have reached two CL finals in two years and, in between, recorded our highest ever points tally in the league while winning the FA Cup, if Rafa had blown his entire transfer budget each summer on 1 top class player.  I strongly doubt we'd have achieved much of anything doing that.

[Bad Bob]

He is obsessed with wing play and has failed miserably with StevieG and also failed to sign a decent winger for either flank.

Care to explain this sentence?  How is Rafa "obsessed" with wing play?  As opposed to what?  Not being a.rsed to sign or used wingers?  How has he failed with Gerrard?  You've dismissed Rafa's whole approach to wide players without even explaining what it is you mean.  And, from where I sit, Pennant is at least a "decent" winger who did his part in the second half of last season.

His expectations with Crouch remain a mystery, is he a striker, a link man, a target man or a central midfielder ?
He failed to utilise the best of Robbie Fowler !

Where's the mystery?  Crouch is a striker who plays best as a target man/link man (I don't understand the distinction you make between them). He's not a central midfielder nor is asking him to track back and pressure defenders on the ball when we don't have possession asking him to fill a role that is beyond the remit of a striker.  Some may question Rafa's selection policy with respect to Crouch but I don't think anyone questions how Rafa deploys him on the pitch.  As for Robbie, I might be inclined to agree if you explained how Rafa failed to get the best out of him.

[jaytoothetee]

yes, but at the same time it would be nice to see the youngsters given more of a chance left mid is probably a bad example though - we don't have any real prospects for that position to be given their chance. i would definitely have liked to see anderson and lindfield in particular get a few games last season though

[Redrider]

C'mon Bob, where have you been ?
Rafa has tried to play a whole list of characters down both flanks, most notably StevieG. All, have failed to really ignite, with the possible exception of SG who's talent has been wasted. He has shipped in failures like Gonzo and Zenden, Pennant is the best of the bunch but up to now is yet treally cut it !!
He also does not have a capable recipient of any decent quick crosses, consistently hovering anywhere near the box, including Kuyt

Crouch is an absolute mystery, a striker who can't head the ball with conviction. No, he is a link man who takes the ball, holds it up and passes to our strikers running through !! ( No sorry, our last striker moved on to Real madrid and has not been replaced ). No actually, he is mid-field chaser who statistically has ben proven to run further than most marathon runners.
What is this man ? Oh sorry I forgot he is a 'robo-dancer' currently strutting his stuff in Ibiza !!
Meanwhile the best natural finisher in the country was languishing on the bench when Goals were needed during the season, most notably in Athens !!

Raf' needs more than a new striker to make his twin bladed rotating heli-squad fly, he needs four class players, two down the left flank and two up front.
Is it his fault or the money men ? I say his fault, he has already had enough time and more than a little money, but only produced a confused picture!!

[Bad Bob]

Crouch is an absolute mystery, a striker who can't head the ball with conviction. No, he is a link man who takes the ball, holds it up and passes to our strikers running through !! ( No sorry, our last striker moved on to Real madrid and has not been replaced ). No actually, he is mid-field chaser who statistically has ben proven to run further than most marathon runners.
What is this man ? Oh sorry I forgot he is a 'robo-dancer' currently strutting his stuff in Ibiza !!

Actually, he was our top scorer last season.  You clearly don't rate him but, credit where it's due, he works his socks off for the shirt and contributes.  Good buy.

Meanwhile the best natural finisher in the country was languishing on the bench when Goals were needed during the season, most notably in Athens !!

Here, I agree with you--a bit more of Robbie last season might have been a very good thing.  But, since this thread is about Rafa's transfers I think we need to give credit where credit's due again: who brought God back to Anfield?  Inspired bit of business from Rafa.

Raf' needs more than a new striker to make his twin bladed rotating heli-squad fly, he needs four class players, two down the left flank and two up front.

No one at RM?  But you don't rate Pennant and you say that Gerrard's wasted out there?  It seems like you're the one that's confused, mate.  In a perfect world I'd be in for a LM (in addition to Kewell), a RM (in addition to Pennant) and two strikers (in addition to Crouch and Kuyt).  If that's not possible, I'd be satisfied with a quality striker and a quality LM, with Garcia returning to cover in the wide positions.

Is it his fault or the money men ? I say his fault, he has already had enough time and more than a little money, but only produced a confused picture!!

So, Rafa's had the money he needs to go out and get true quality in the wide positions and up top?  You're having a laugh!  Have a look at the going rate for quality attacking players these days and then tell me how we could have brought in 2 wingers and 2 strikers given our limited budget.  It was never going to happen.  Either Rafa blew the wad on a single player and left major gaps in the other areas, or he went for more modest options for each position.  Tell me, who would you have signed in the last two summers if you were in Rafa's shoes?

[heimdall]

C'mon Bob, where have you been ?
Rafa has tried to play a whole list of characters down both flanks, most notably StevieG. All, have failed to really ignite, with the possible exception of SG who's talent has been wasted. He has shipped in failures like Gonzo and Zenden, Pennant is the best of the bunch but up to now is yet treally cut it !!
He also does not have a capable recipient of any decent quick crosses, consistently hovering anywhere near the box, including Kuyt

Crouch is an absolute mystery, a striker who can't head the ball with conviction. No, he is a link man who takes the ball, holds it up and passes to our strikers running through !! ( No sorry, our last striker moved on to Real madrid and has not been replaced ). No actually, he is mid-field chaser who statistically has ben proven to run further than most marathon runners.
What is this man ? Oh sorry I forgot he is a 'robo-dancer' currently strutting his stuff in Ibiza !!
Meanwhile the best natural finisher in the country was languishing on the bench when Goals were needed during the season, most notably in Athens !!

Raf' needs more than a new striker to make his twin bladed rotating heli-squad fly, he needs four class players, two down the left flank and two up front.
Is it his fault or the money men ? I say his fault, he has already had enough time and more than a little money, but only produced a confused picture!!

Do you honestly believe that Robbie was the answer last season, everytime I saw him play I felt like crying as he just didn't have the pace any more. It was only slighlty better than watching all those seniors matches where you occasionally see a glimpse of the old magic. Robbie had plenty of minutes of playing time to prove himself, far more than I would have given him actually, but failed to deliver!

I personally think Rafa is doing a damn good job, but yes there are things which frustrate me about the man, but he is certainly a vast improvement over Houllier and that other clown Evans. With a few big name signings now, whcih I am confident we will get, then I think the future is looking ver bright.

[account deleted by request]

Kuyt was an acceptable signing of £10m-£11m and Gonzales cost in the region of £2m-£3m. The signings of Gonzales and Kuyt cost on average £13m, by my maths (which is terrible) we would have had £17m left (if we didn’t sign Pennant and Bellamy) this substantial amount of money could have been spent on a top class striker.

And which "top class" striker were you thinking was available last summer for 17 million?

Look our financial reality over the last few seasons has required compromises.  We could have blown all 30 million (if indeed that's an accurate figure) on 1 star player, with maybe enough left over for a fringe player but we've had gaps all over the park that needed plugging over the last two seasons.  One striker wasn't going to be enough last season.  We also needed wingers, as the injuries to Kewell, Garcia and Aurelio demonstrated.  Plus, it would be nice to be able to play Gerrard in his preferred and most effective position every now and again.  It gets tiresome to read people diminishing the amount of work that needed to be done in the last two seasons to get the squad into shape.  We needed to sign players in every department of the pitch and have back ups in case they got injured.  And, no, relying on the kids from the reserves to step in and keep us challenging on multiple fronts in the event of an injury to a first-teamer is not the answer.  As limited as he is, I'm glad we had Zenden available to play LM in Kewell's absence against Chelsea and Milan than one of the lads from the reserves.  Ask yourself this: would we have reached two CL finals in two years and, in between, recorded our highest ever points tally in the league while winning the FA Cup, if Rafa had blown his entire transfer budget each summer on 1 top class player.  I strongly doubt we'd have achieved much of anything doing that.

What gaps did we plug last season?

Bellamy was he any better than Cisse ?
Pennant was he any better than Gerrard
Mascherano (loan) Great but did he really plug a gap?
Kuyt - still waiting
Arbeloa - filled a gap

I said before last season 2 great players rather than more squad players. If we had kept Cisse and Pongole in the squad and our new super-striker costing £15million (I went for Sergio Aguero    )and Alves £12million.

Yes we would have been forced to play Crouch more early season as Cisse was injured (would that have been a bad thing looking back?)and Gerrard would have had to spend another season on the right unless we played Alves there, but that would have been two positions sorted instead of the seasonal "lets hope someone buys our failures" so we can buy better.

Cisse would have had a few games after Christmas to sell himself and we could be now looking for the next two signings (CB and RW ) RATHER THAN THE 3 OR 4 WE NOW NEED!

Again I say if we havnt the money to buy all the players we want, buy top class and make do and mend for the positions we can't fill. Then next season we can be buying top class again rather than more squad players to replace squad players.

[Emerald Red]

Are you stoned? We'd the best defence in the league last season and you cite Aggar as not being a excellent  player? And the others, Momo, Kuyt and Crouch. I'd say these are pretty excellent squad players. Name me a better forward that works as hard as Kuyt does when we don't have the ball. Not exactly prolific, but he runs his heart out for the team.

OK, I take that as a yes - you are stoned!

[Wilhelmsson]

And which "top class" striker were you thinking was available last summer for 17 million?

Look our financial reality over the last few seasons has required compromises.  We could have blown all 30 million (if indeed that's an accurate figure) on 1 star player, with maybe enough left over for a fringe player but we've had gaps all over the park that needed plugging over the last two seasons.  One striker wasn't going to be enough last season.  We also needed wingers, as the injuries to Kewell, Garcia and Aurelio demonstrated.  Plus, it would be nice to be able to play Gerrard in his preferred and most effective position every now and again.  It gets tiresome to read people diminishing the amount of work that needed to be done in the last two seasons to get the squad into shape.  We needed to sign players in every department of the pitch and have back ups in case they got injured.  And, no, relying on the kids from the reserves to step in and keep us challenging on multiple fronts in the event of an injury to a first-teamer is not the answer.  As limited as he is, I'm glad we had Zenden available to play LM in Kewell's absence against Chelsea and Milan than one of the lads from the reserves.  Ask yourself this: would we have reached two CL finals in two years and, in between, recorded our highest ever points tally in the league while winning the FA Cup, if Rafa had blown his entire transfer budget each summer on 1 top class player.  I strongly doubt we'd have achieved much of anything doing that.

Miroslav Klose was a player I wanted to see us go for last summer; I was surprised that no one went in for him and as a result he is off to Bayern next summer.

Yes the budgets have needed compromise, I haven’t said this wasn’t the case; more often than not a compromise or series of compromises is needed. Why would anyone want to spend their entire budget on one player? I have not suggested or advocated this, I suggested that Benitez should have signed one accomplished player as well as signing the likes of Luis Garcia and Xabi Alonso. (I am not dismissing either player as not being accomplished).

There have had gaps and there still are gaps even though the gap has been ‘filled’, the signing of Pennant is an example, he has done little to change the right wing situation and I don’t think he will change the situation. The signings of Crouch, Bellamy and Kuyt have not changed the fortunes of our striker situation, we score goals, but not enough goals and we now find ourselves relying on a couple of outlets (Crouch & Gerrard) for a majority of our goals. I understand that the midfield has to be taken into account too, the wings haven’t been used effectively and the creativity from the wings has been minimal; however there have been more than enough chances for the strikers to score goals and for the team to win matches.

I’m of the opinion that if you are going to fill the gaps in the starting eleven you should fill them with accomplished players (not fringe players), this doesn’t all have to happen in one or two seasons, rebuilding a squad with a miserly budget like we had last season can take a number of seasons. One striker might not have been enough last season, however someone like Klose along with Kuyt and Crouch would have done substantially better than Bellamy who is a limited player in terms of ability. Gerrard could play on the right, Kuyt could have played on the right if needed (I know it’s not ideal). On the left we had Zenden, Gonzales and Riise who could have filled the void along with a few reserves, it’s not ideal, then again the situation this club finds itself in isn’t in itself ideal.

Who is diminishing the work that has needed to be done? Benitez has an up-hill struggle with this football club, I have acknowledged this in a previous post, but by signing a load of fringe players, he is just making more work for himself in the long term. I’d rather Benitez signed one top class player (for example Klose) and two very good players (similar to Luis Garcia and Xabi Alonso) and spend whatever else is left over on some fringe players or pick up players on a free transfer (Zenden). I guess I prefer a gradual building process instead of introducing an overhaul of fringe players who will be replaced sooner or later; to me this makes more work and unnecessary work. Subtle change is more effective than mass change.

As for challenging for competitions, I didn’t expect us to challenge for competitions, so winning the Champions League, FA Cup, European Super Cup and the Community Shield has been truly wonderful. I certainly never thought we could challenge for the Premiership since Rafa has arrived, I did expect gradual change to the team and one top signing or a handful of accomplished signings, which hasn’t happened. I am not unhappy with how Liverpool has progressed and I am pleased we have won some silverware; I just feel that Benitez could have done things differently in terms of the transfer market.

I fail to see a problem with using reserve team players as understudies instead of wasting resources on the likes of Josemi; to me this makes perfect sense. Reserves should be given matches to prove themselves and gain experience; I fail to understand the concept of having a reserve team if you aren’t going to give the reserves a break in the first team. It’s also a pragmatic and sensible option. Someone like Lee Peltier wouldn’t have been any worse than Josemi was at RB. The signing of Zenden was okay, I supported it as I knew what we were getting with Bolo and it was on a free transfer, there is no dispute with that signing or these signings (if they are on a free).

I have to ask you where have you gotten this idea that I am advocating spending our entire budget on one player? If you have read my posts, you will see I have advocated signings like Alonso’s, Kuyt’s, Reina’s and Garcia’s along with a top class player (s), this can be achieved (obviously not in one single transfer window) with the right methods and the right idea’s, even more so now with the relatively new owners.

I cannot answer your question regarding the method (I have advocated) in terms of what Benitez has achieved since he arrived because there is no real way of forecasting or predicting such a thing. All I can say is, it’s a possibly, but I cannot say for definite. What I do know is that Rafa will have to replace all of these players at some point and the rebuilding process will start over again as players enter and players leave.

[Redrider]

Hey Bob, without going into too much detail, cos' I ain't got the time at the moment.
In a nutshell, the point I am making is that Raf, aint that bloody clear about who he is signing or what plan he is working to!
He is ok with the defence, but then gradually loses the plot through midfield and with the strikers.
He has not had unlimited money, but has had more than most other prem' managers.
He could have signed Berbatov and if he really wanted, he could have signed at least one of the wing backs he has coveted, all in the £5m to £15m category. Instead he has played around with a whole selection of players in the circa £5m category, none of which has really cut the mustard. aint got time to list them all, but you Know who I mean.
Two or three sharp buy's in the med, range category would have been better value to the team than the dozen or so from the bargain basement.

And, no RM because I am hoping that Pennant does come good.

[Lando_Griffin]

Speaking of flops - Sylvain Wiltord.

In for £13m, out for a big fat f*cking ZERO.

Or Robert Pires? How much did that Frog magician make on his transfer? MINUS £6m.

But still - he's BRILLIANT in the transfer market, don'tcha know?

Agree on Wiltord but Pires? C'mon Lando he was one of the best players in the league when Arsenal were at their peak.

When Arsenal sold him he was on the decline and you wouldn't expect to make a profit on him anyway. Making profits on players isn't a good way to judge a transfer if that said player has been an integral part of winning you numerous trophies which would have been more beneficial financially than any possible sale of that player.

I was merely making the point that he makes losses that mor than double those of Rafa.

I am in no way detracting from Pires' brilliance whilst at Arsenal, even if he was a cocky, cheating, diving b*stard.

[Redrider]

Heimdall,
           There were games last season when we were crying out for a goal and all that was required was for Robbie to be allowed to loiter in and around the box and sniff a goal.
Forget all this chasing back and tracking down, especially in the last 20mins Fowler could have made a difference, Kuyt and Crouch were all playing too deep, or Bellamy too wide. Just too much foraging and not enough poaching !!

[heimdall]

Heimdall,
           There were games last season when we were crying out for a goal and all that was required was for Robbie to be allowed to loiter in and around the box and sniff a goal.
Forget all this chasing back and tracking down, especially in the last 20mins Fowler could have made a difference, Kuyt and Crouch were all playing too deep, or Bellamy too wide. Just too much foraging and not enough poaching !!

yes I agree with you, I wish he could have scored some goals when he came on but he never did, he knew what he wanted to do and had by far the best footballing brain and instinct but is just too slow these days, it's frustrating to watch and must be him off too.