Liverpool FC Forum

[Fauxy]

Babel is 22 ent he?

[Snake]

Babel is 22 ent he?

Yeah I fixed it, I meant Ngog. Babel's 23.

Interestingly, N'Gog is Jean-Alain Boumsong's cousin. Remember that old misfit from Newcastle United? I guess it runs in the family :P

[NANNY RED]

insua , darby , kelly , spearing , ngog , pacheco , ayala , ecclestone all young ressie players who have played first team footy this year and a number of them look like they can do well plus a few more waiting in the wings with bright futures , something that seems to have changed ever since rafa was able to bring in his own people and oversea the kids .

Is correct, since moving from Kirby to Melwood and getting them involved daily with the first team, he can see it for himself instead of relying on reports,

[LFC2007]

It's easy to get stuck into the thread starter coz a couple of statements are a bit stupid (particularly the Babel one) but it's hard to disagree with the sentiment. The youth set-up has thrown up nothing of any note since Gerrard came through. You can point to Insua (a player I quite like) but there's no getting away from the fact that he is playing in the worst LFC defence (statistically) of the last 10 years. I know the likes of Spearing and Pachecho have had a run out this season but then so did players like Hobbs, Palletta and Mellor but none of them (and countless others) amounted to anything.

I agree, although I think that if you were to argue (not saying you are) that Mellor, Hobbs and Palletta would have been good enough but for inadequate management, I would say you were talking b0llocks (ditto). Conversely, a player of Gerrard, Owen, or Fowler's ability (if we're talking aged 16+) is always likely to get noticed and make the grade simply because they've developed most of their key attributes, which are well above average despite their youth. Finding those types of players is more dependent on the scouting system and the coaching setup at the Academy since most future world-class stars have already been snapped up by the top clubs by the time they reach 17-18 (by that I mean it'd be a stretch to criticise Rafa for failing to pick up a destined world class youngster who is aged 16+). Where I think we could learn going forward is in the marginal cases. Those who aren't standout but who aren't obviously lacking - like Carragher and arguably Warnock. Steady eddies who can do a job given time. That's where, I suspect, a good man-manager can make a real difference since their success is much more dependent on developing strong mental characteristics so as to offset their relative dearth of raw talent. Over time, training hard (hence input of manager) - and well - will convert to consistency.

Darby may be one to fall into that category because he seems to know his defensive duties pretty well (tackling, harrying, getting blocks in, being in position). My main concern is in what he lacks physically and in his on-the-ball ability, which appears to be quite limited. Like Carragher, though, he could probably get away with being a bit mediocre in possession, and like all players he will certainly develop physically. But - like Carragher - to make a career with us I think he'll have to maximise his strengths as a no-nonsense defender.

But this wouldn't be high on my list of Rafa criticisms. He could perhaps have brought Warnock in but other than that he's heavily reliant on the Academy and his scouts* to bring through young players with enough quality to be at least a marginal prospects. Besides I think we've got two genuine prospects in our ranks in Pacheco (who should be getting more games) and Kelly, and another youngster in Insua who is probably another marginal, whom Rafa has shown plenty of faith in.

*The manager surely doesn't have enough time to scrutinise to the nth degree every prospective youngster we sign? By that I mean watching 20-30 of their performances, which is known to be something like the norm in the case of prospective first-team signings.

[Owzat]

Question of nature vs nurture, if the players have the ability then they will make the grade, if they don't then coaching may improve them but won't make them world beaters. That is why I disagree that some of the kids getting the odd game this season are 'good enough', if you set Liverpool's level at mid-table then perhaps, but none of them will force their way in ahead of multimillion pound signings and therein lies the true measure of class. Gerrard, Fowler, Owen and Carra are good enough and proved it by playing 100s of games for Liverpool, how many of the current crop will get to 50 games for Liverpool? I am confident that even Pacheco isn't guaranteed to get 50 games.

Kids neither for caps nor keeps

Mellor - 12 league apps, did make an impression in scoring in the Olympiakos thriller and scoring the winner against Arsenal, but left for £500k and found his level in the Championship
Warnock - arguably as good a LB as we have had since or for many years before, reflected in making 67 league apps for Liverpool before being sold for £1.5m to Blackburn. We should consider re-signing him, but I doubt the leprechaun would sell him cheap.
Guthrie - just 7 apps for Liverpool, sold for about £2.5m to Newcastle. Good player, but like many of our current crop you have to wonder if he would ever be good enough for the level we aspire to
Wright - 21 apps for Liverpool, not the pick of recent kids but another sold for £1.5m with lack of opportunities. Currently with Coventry
Matteo - made 129 league apps for us, at CB and LB. Did pretty well, but with better CB options at the club (Carra, Hyypia and Henchoz) he moved on
Hammill - didn't even make it into the first team, sold off to Barnsley after many loans


Point being, a lot of people on here get excited about some kids playing a few games, I think one or two secretly shoot their loads over our youth set-up. But the fact remains that it is hard to break into the first team at a top club, if you haven't done so by 17-21 then you will struggle, and even more so if you aren't getting regular appearances on the bench. If the current crop can't force our poor offerings of reserves off the bench then what hope of long careers?!?!? Even some of our better youngsters like Warnock were forced out because money talks and the manager often prefers his judgement ie the player(s) he signed, over ones that come through the ranks.

The bottom line is few players make it through the ranks at LFC, the few being McManaman, Fowler, Carragher, Owen and Gerrard with a few others making plenty of appearances but never making positions their own. Did those players make it because they were nurtured into greats, or because they were naturally great players? Are those of Wenger's kids destined to make it going to make it because of Wenger or because they have the natural talent and Wenger just makes sure they realise their potential? Worst accusation you can really make of Rafa is players don't make most of their potential under him but the same is probably true of Houllier before him and may even be more to do with coaches than the man himself. I doubt he takes personal responsibility for coaching, he can only partly be blamed for attitude eg Babel, so it's not like his signings where he is prime culprit

[juljuve]

Lucas was simply an overestimated midfielder...
Babel is talented, but lacks discipline.

[metalhead]

babel - if at arsenal by now hed one of the best forwards in the world, under rafa he know has zero confidence and  has had all his ability zapped from him

Yeh Ok


I remember some Ajax fans coming up on this forum saying we were crazy to sign him up in the first place.

[Greavesie]

you know when someone is pro or anti immediately by the first word of the thread. Look, I can criticise Rafa and see his faults but there's absolutely no need just to rip into him. Make constructive points rather than attack him. I begginning to believe that Rafa is not the man for Liverpool but I ain't being labelled anti when they spout sh!te

[Greavesie]

this

babel - if at arsenal by now hed one of the best forwards in the world, under rafa he know has zero confidence and  has had all his ability zapped from him

Rafa is not Wenger, stop using Wenger as a yardstick to measure Rafa's ability to nurture young talent. This quote is beyond

[Waldo]

I have no issue with Rafa's youth policy. We have done very well in the youth and reserve leagues over the past few years so he must be doing something right.

The issue I have (that I think Rafa is starting to address) is where he brings the young boys in from.

Most of his young South American imports (Leto and Gonzales being the highest profile) have flopped, probably to do with weather, food, culture (the usual stuff you hear from these kids) and we are now seeing more European (Hungarian, Danish etc) coming in which I only see as a good thing as the lifestyle changes are not too massive.

Wenger cottoned to this a lot quicker than Rafa and you could argue that this down to the fact that he has been in the game in this country for a lot longer. Over that period he has seen his fair share of superstar kids flop at his club.

There is clearly an issue with progressing these kids into the first team and that is where Wenger beats Rafa hands down!!!

[Greavesie]

sh!t we have to get Wenger from Arsenal, why didn't I think of that. At least then we'll have decent transfers and promising kids. Only 1 small problem, he aint won sh!t in the last 4 years........can we stop the Wenger sh!te now please?