Rafa to resign on monday

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Postby Bad Bob » Thu May 31, 2007 4:22 pm

Bamaga man wrote:Firstly Bob Rafa brought in most the players who gave us sub-par performances, Zenden, Gonzalez, Kuyt IMO, Momo and even Xabi at times. Quite frankly the whole team was sub par,but the players I mentioned were Rafas buys in the first place.

So as right as you are that the players should shoulder the blame, shouldnt he Rafa shoulder the blame for buying and using these players when they dont perform ?



Okay, mate, there's two different parts to what you've just said and I'll address each in turn.  Do I think Rafa should shoulder the blame for buying these underperforming players?  This statement implies that these were bad buys--a claim I would categorically deny for Alonso, Sissoko, Kuyt and Zenden.  I'm not going to get into the whole Alonso debate again but even his most committed critics will surely admit he's been an excellent buy for the team.  The same is true with Sissoko, who was immense for us last season and a big reason for why we performed so well (he was also one of the few players doing the business out of the blocks this season).  Kuyt is a player I know you don't rate but he's brought a fair amount to the team this season, even if his goal scoring is not where we want it to be--he's hardly a bad buy.  As for Zenden, he came on a free as cover for two positions that needed cover.  He's past his best, to be certain, but--like Robbie--he's brought experience, stability and the occasional moment of quality to the side so I wouldn't call him a bad buy either.  Gonzales...you can have that one. :D  Personally, I think Rafa's done reasonably well given the funds at his disposal--with some truly inspired buys mingled with a few duds, just like you'll find with other top managers (consider Ronaldo v. Kleberson, Drogba v. Bhoularouz, Fabregas v. Reyes...)

It's your second question--should Rafa shoulder the blame for using players that are underperforming?--that gets to the heart of the issue.  Some will say--you and Peewee for instance--that Rafa's faith in these sub-par squad players cost us a lot of points.  To a certain extent that's true.  I've already said that Rafa's sweeping rotations--the ones where he changes 4-5 players from match to match--have done more harm than good.  The big problem is that it doesn't allow the team to gel as a unit and play a more intuitive, flowing game.

Nonetheless, I still contend that our squad players--and that includes the likes of Sissoko, Zenden, Bellamy, Fowler, Aurelio, Arbeloa and even Gonzales--have enough in their locker to give the lesser lights of the league a game.  Yes, perhaps the opposition would see the teamsheet full of second-stringers and will think they have a shot but that should only serve to open the game up and give our lads the space to play.  Take a look at this starting 11 and tell me there's not enough quality to beat a good proportion of the league there:

                               Dudek

Arbeloa             Hyypia           Palletta       Aurelio

Garcia              Zenden          Sissoko        Gonzales

                       Bellamy         Fowler

That, to me, has the chance to be at least a mid-table side and, of course, there's always going to be a strong spine of first-teamers in the mix to make the side even better.

So, I think it's reasonable for Rafa to expect that some of these squad players have the ability to step into the team and still keep the results ticking over (Hyypia is the perfect example of a player that does that).  To me, the fact that many of them didn't perform was frustrating.  Rather than lay all of the blame at Rafa's feet for playing them, I blame some of these lads for not making the most of the chances they were given.

For the record and to be absolutely clear: I rate Rafa very highly as a manager.  I believe he is the one to take us forward and win us the title and I think losing him would be a massive blow to the club, both in the short term and in the long term.  I DO NOT, however, think he's infallible.  He has firm ideas and a commited plan for every game but sometimes they just don't come off or address what's needed on the day.  So, yes, it is right to criticize him when he gets it wrong.  In the interests of balance, however, I think the players need to shoulder the blame sometimes for not executing the gameplan.  Take last week's final for instance.  Some have said that Rafa got it all wrong for not playing Crouch and/or Bellamy.  Ergo, Rafa's tactics cost us the cup.  Another perspective is that the tactics worked a treat and the players failed to deliver when the chances came their way.  Consider Pennant's poor square ball to Gerrard, Kuyt's blocked shot in the box, Riise's, Alonso's and Gerrard's errant shots from distance and, most costly, Gerrard's scuffed shot when clear through on goal.  Had we taken any one of those chances (or not made the 2 defensive mistakes we did) it would have been an entirely different match.  So, by all means criticize Rafa for his part in this loss (or any loss this season), but don't forget that the players failed to do their bit as well.
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Postby Sabre » Thu May 31, 2007 4:49 pm

Rafa will stay, Rafa will succeed, and the ones that are nit picking now will jump on the bandwagon *again*.
Last edited by Sabre on Thu May 31, 2007 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby metalhead » Thu May 31, 2007 4:59 pm

Im sick of this.. rafa stay, rafa go, rafa stay, rafa go


RAFA OUT!



WARNOCK IN! WORLD CLASS MANAGER!  :buttrock


























































:D  :laugh:
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Postby agoodmentality » Thu May 31, 2007 5:15 pm

Sabre wrote:
bavlondon wrote::censored: me how much have Man Utd spent this week!!!

I read the other day that there should be 2 signings by the end of this week. I hope it wasnt the youngsters we have got.

Well curiously enough 2 days ago I read that LFC wanted that portuguese Nani, and today I read Manchester Utd bought him AND another player for 55M Euro, 30 M quid or so.

That's what Rafa meant by "you have to act quickly".

So far, he's managed to talk with the new owners, and he's happy despite not talking about budget. As the new owners say Rafa is the man, Manchester spends big money.

It's time to put the money on Rafa's hands, it's not time to talk.

Just to reiterate, I think this story is a joke.

your right
SHOW RAFA THE MONEY!

this yank signed $250M contract with Alexander Rodrigez for his baseball team,, if he thinks nights like Athens 07 come cheap he's wrong.

rafa needs top money for top players,, NOW

SHOW RAFA THE MONEY !
I've watched my Heroes throught the slats at Melwood,,
I've STOOD on the KOP,,
I've cried for the 96 ,,

Don't EVER question my loyalty or support.

YNWA
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Postby Santa » Thu May 31, 2007 5:34 pm

Sabre wrote:
Firstly Bob Rafa brought in most the players who gave us sub-par performances, Zenden, Gonzalez, Kuyt IMO, Momo and even Xabi at times. Quite frankly the whole team was sub par,but the players I mentioned were Rafas buys in the first place.

So as right as you are that the players should shoulder the blame, shouldnt he Rafa shoulder the blame for buying and using these players when they dont perform ?


Yes he's to be blamed for bringing the "non performing" Zenden, Gonzalez, Kuyt, Momo and Alonso (at times).

Are they the players he wanted? some of them, yes. Many of them they were second or third options, and a couple of them like Agger and Gonzalez, were meant for the future.

Rafa brought those players, there's no discussion about that. It shouldn't be necessary to explain that he would have brought other players if he had the money to compete with the other top english clubs, I think.

Instead, Rafa had some little discussions and a couple of press statements when he moaned about not having people for the right last season. Remember? He wanted to sign Victor from Deportivo in winter, because the RM was not covered. The deal was turned down due to Deportivo, and Gerrard started to play in that position.

So yes, you can try hard and find mistakes of Rafa, like he brought players below par like Alonso (at times). But then you have to analyse under what circunstances he brought this players aswell.

Some people might say that's 'excuses'. I say it's to analyse everything.

it was not too long ago everyone was calling Xabi and Momo to be one of the best buy of the season and now all the sudden all these BS being yanked! How fickle minded some of you so-called "fans" are. While I'm not saying Rafa is beyond criticism (in fact I agree that his use of substitures during the final was poorly judged), it's easy for us to write these after the match and without considering other factors such as players utlisation and form. My only criticism of Rafa is his refusal to start Crouch in consecutive games and instead prefer a Bellamy which I think was poor throughout the season. My point is...let's cut him some slack. Now that we'll finally have some financial muscle to compete with the other big boys, let's give him a chance to build a PL winning team.

When we finally landed our 19th, I'm sure some of you will be singing a different tune. I'll remember this thread and I'll wait for "that" day to remind you how fickle you guys are  :sniffle
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Postby Sabre » Thu May 31, 2007 5:42 pm

Santa, mate, just in case it's my english, or you haven't read other posts, I don't think whatsoever Kuyt, Crouch or ALonso are bad buys. I rate those players a lot. I just was conceding that point to Bamaga-man to discuss the main point.

Rafa beyond criticism? of course not. Rafa infalible? I haven't known an infalible coach.

The point you make on Crouch not having continuous games, in fact, is one I agree. I like rotations, but I also think any club must notice when one of his strikesr is in a good moment of form. And normally if a striker is scoring, he'll score almost everything he tries. In the same way when he's not scoring, he'll fail a lot. I do agree Rafa's rotations sometimes do not seem to take this fact in consideration.
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Postby RUSHIE#9 » Thu May 31, 2007 5:59 pm

RedBlood wrote:fkin hell whats with all the stupid threads, id bet my left nut this aint gonna happen

I think Woollyback might like your left nut after he set his nads on fire last night 'cos of the start of Bloody BigBrother.  :D


I'm sure he'll PM ya if he does want it.  :p
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Postby kunilson » Thu May 31, 2007 6:08 pm

so after 3 seasons, bringing us the champions league and reaching another final apart from that one....getting our highest tally in the premiership since it was "created", also a couple of months since his wife said if he left england she would not go with him and with only one or two criticisms, main one being the club doesn't give him enough money which he is assured of now.....he's gonna resign?!

most amount of :censored: ive ever heard, and it would make me think much less of him if it did happen. but it wont.
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Postby Marianne » Thu May 31, 2007 6:11 pm

Nooo!!! I think Rafa is great! He has won the champo league, and has taken us to a champo league final!
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Postby kunilson » Thu May 31, 2007 6:25 pm

^ dont the two go hand in hand? :D

that "rumour" is a well timed joke methinks
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Thu May 31, 2007 11:23 pm

Sabre wrote:Rafa will stay, Rafa will succeed, and the ones that are nit picking now will jump on the bandwagon *again*.

what was it you said about buffon posts?   


saying he got something wrong is nit picking then praising him when he gets something right is jumping on the bandwagon again, i really do hope you are joking as that is possibly the stupidest post you have ever written
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Thu May 31, 2007 11:38 pm

This was all bollox this rumour. Ask Jmac and Murf.
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:04 am

Sabre wrote:"If he had have played Crouch we would have won"

Is that true?


Well Rafa has changed the mentality of people. The mentality of people is getting closer to other teams that want to sack coachs after winning the league title, or want to sack a coach because he didn't win the final.

I'm not talking about Ciggy here, it's true she's been critic with Rafa this season. I'm talking about how much have changed the expectations of the fans under Rafa.

That's a good thing... at some extent.

Its funny how he calls some of us "nit pickers" but when somebody like Ciggy says ' it wouldnt bother me if he went, he's to defensive anyway'

He brushes them off with just being critical, there probably the most negative comments in here, but me and you Peewee get accused of critising him if we point a few home truths out.

Another classic case of licking the crack !
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Postby Sabre » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:14 am

peewee wrote:
Sabre wrote:Rafa will stay, Rafa will succeed, and the ones that are nit picking now will jump on the bandwagon *again*.

what was it you said about buffon posts?   


saying he got something wrong is nit picking then praising him when he gets something right is jumping on the bandwagon again, i really do hope you are joking as that is possibly the stupidest post you have ever written

Well I wasn't joking. And even if that was my most stupid post ever, it would be light years away a post offering a bid to buy newkit.

When I think about that I sigh and I say *phew*  :laugh:

I think you'll agree that you are a shrewd and perceptive man, don't you think the atmosphere surrounding Rafa is more negative than yesteryear at this stage of the year?

* There were not rumours about Rafa having problems with Parry yesteryear

* The threads commenting the season weren't named "A hugely dissapointing season in many fronts"

* The threads about Rafa's mistakes didn't take pages and pages, there is less people in the Rafa we trust camp, and the dissident voices weren't as numerous as this year (meaning I'm not talking about you, there's lots of people in the forum)

* Some people is blaming Rafa's decissions (line-ups, rotations, signing ups) rather than other factors (lack of budget to have a deep squad) to explain the failure to be contenders for the league.

It's obvious to me that Rafa is receiving criticism in every aspect a manager can be criticised (again, line-ups, signing ups, rotations, formations, and even will to win). Isn't it true ALL this aspects are being exposed? that's serious criticism, and by the looks of it, it's quite abundant in this forum this days.

Nothing wrong with it, it's a respectable opinion, but maybe it's the time to gather some balls, and admit it's an open criticism, the kind of criticism that might perfectly culminate in "sack Rafa" times.

He brushes them off with just being critical, there probably the most negative comments in here, but me and you Peewee get accused of critising him if we point a few home truths out.


Mind you, you are not the only user of this forum. And it's untrue that in the last post or my previous one I'm accusing especifically you or Peewee. It's just you taking as a personal comment aimed at you every post I write!
Last edited by Sabre on Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:00 am

not taking it personally at all, but since when has pointing out obvious flaws been nitpicking and why does that mean praising someone afterwards in jumping on the bandwagon.

however if you want me to take it personally then i will say after supporting the team for 40 years i reserve the right to criticise when its warranted and praise when its warranted, remember sabre you became a red when alonso joined so jumping on any bandwagons can really be aimed at you.


now people blaming rafa selections as oppossed to budget etc, again i will say that we have a team capable of beating barcelona and chelsea, so why are we not capable of beating everton, shef utd, fulham, blackburn etc etc etc, because of poor team selection, nothing to do with budget, we have the players to beat these teams but lack of respect, lack of team selection, lack of motivation, call it whatever you will, but to blame budget when we have proved we can beat these teams is wrong and the for these decisions the finger has to be pointed at rafa, just like it has to be pointed at rafa for bring on arbeloa in athens and leaving crouch so late.

that my friend is not nitpicking, that is pointing out what happened and pointing out the mistakes made, its what being a fan is all about, not blindly acepting every decision made by the manager and 'in rafa we trust'

now sabre i dont wish to squabble with you again so lets not go down the route of scoring points of each other, you just had your dig, i had mine, but when you start calling peoples support into question expect some response, remember mate you have supported us for 3 years and we are your second team, bear that in mind when you want to try and take the high ground with supporters about loyalty


now even though you didnt reall answer my post, i will try and answer this point about yours, you talk about people complaining about rafa and pary this year,and it could gather momentum, well sabre i think that answers its own question, why are people complaing more this year, because they are not happy, not everyone goes down the blind faith route, we have been around longer to know that doesnt work, people start to say things as they are mate rather than say what they think people want to hear, thats why there is more criticism mate, because its warranted.

now we have new owners, lets hope the money is there, lets hope rafa spends it wisely, and lets hope he makes an effort in the league next year, then we can all be happy and there will be no need for the 2 camps that exist now     :D
Last edited by 112-1077774096 on Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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