Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

Although I think we've been over this a million times in previous threads and exhausted all the possible routes for debate, I'd just add, I agree with the bulk of what Rafadodd has said tinged with a little bit of Mick re. rotation.

[Sabre]

Toshack has been a bit bitter with LIVERPOOL for years, along with various other ex players eg Phil Neal he seemed to get the impression he had been offered the managers job. Either Liverpool were quite profligate in their offers or he was mistaken.

Great player though, I saw his debut for us against Coventry (he didn't score) and his first goal for us against Everton in the great comeback from 0-2 down. I dont agree with managers doing things unless they actually believe in them. If he doesnt believe he needs extra coaches or that rotation works why should he use them? If his approach works why change it for something you dont believe in?

Good player, not sure about as a manager, but he did great with Swansea.

I'd be grateful if you or someone else that has seen him playing would do a post about his game in the Player's lounge some day. When LFC came to San Sebastian with toshack (UEFA cup, 1-3), I was one or two year old and I can't remember. THen LFC came again with Grobelaar and Barnes in a friendly, but Toshack wasn't there at the time of course.

As a coach, he's a master tactician. He brought the sweeper to Spain (we're talking about 1985 here) and lots of variantes unseen at the time here. He reads well the matches and knows well where the oppo is harming the team, and he gets right most of subs.

Why change old methods? because old methods worked in the eighties but not any more. That's why precisely, in the past he was coaching teams like Real Madrid, Real Sociedad, and then he had to coach lesser league teams in Turkey, and other places. For Wales, he's a good coach, because in a national squad you don't have to rotate or things like that, and I can't think of a better coach to spot young welsh stars. He's also the proper man to change that national team and make the transition.

But he could not coach LFC nowadays IMHO. Goalkeepers work especific work is proven to be good, both by results, and both by keeper's answer. But he's that stubborn he won't oblige. Why shouldn't he change when he's proven it's good?

Anyway, lots of respect to the man. That article is in a Real Sociedad section, but he can't help talking about LFC!  he does so since 1985

[account deleted by request]

What I meant was if he doesn't believe in something the likelyhood is it wouldn't work for him. He obviously will be aware that others think it works or even that it does work for others. No doubt all managers do certain things differently and all will think their way is best (otherwise they would/should change), and when things go wrong they will blame the players and lack of money

[stmichael]

Clearly, not every one of Rafa's signings has been a success but that hardly makes him unique amongst managers. It's always natural to compare a manager to his predecessor and one thing that impresses me with Rafa is that he's not scared to get rid of players he's signed that sunsequently under-perform as long as he is able to replace them.

Rafa's been restricted in comparison to other managers in the top four both in terms of how much he can spend and more critically what he's had to buy with it. I disagree that he's ever really had the option of spending £20m+ on a player since he came to LFC, partly because the board seemed to be less willing to let him spend big than they were with GH but mainly because in my opinion, we did need to improve the overall quality of the squad players, making the quality versus quantity debate a moot point.

Players like Xabi, Mascherano and Garcia were certainly worth what we paid for them. With the benefit of hindsight, Agger was a steal, proper highway robbery. Momo's given good value for what we paid and will either continue to do so, or be sold for a decent profit. Interesting that "the worst player ever to pull on a Liverpool shirt" is apparently being scrapped over by Barcelona and Juventus, isn't it? Kuyt will hopefully come into his own next season, playing up from with an out-and-out goalscorer to convert his hard work into goals, but if he doesn't I'm sure he'll be shipped out too.

When Rafa does get rid of one of his signings, by and large they've either cost us next to nothing to start with, or we've recouped a decent proportion of what we paid.

Only time will tell if he's got the talent and the cojones to play in the big league when it comes to transfers, but I think he has. Here's an question to think about - say Rafa signs Eto'o for £27m and he's complete and utter gash for us, only scoring six in all competitions, would you slate Rafa for buying him?

[Sabre]

Only time will tell if he's got the talent and the cojones to play in the big league when it comes to transfers

I think he has the cojones well put, as we say here.

[bigmick]

Interesting that "the worst player ever to pull on a Liverpool shirt" is apparently being scrapped over by Barcelona and Juventus, isn't it?


Here's an question to think about - say Rafa signs Eto'o for £27m and he's complete and utter gash for us, only scoring six in all competitions, would you slate Rafa for buying him?

For the first bit, it is not as "interesting" as it might seem St because we both know that anybody who is of that opinion is a fool. That said you are correct to point out that there are many who don't rate Sissoko at all, and in my humble opinion they are very wrong.

He remains the most destructive ball-winning midfiled player in Europe for me, and with development (which I think will come with experience) he could just be an absolutely monsterous player. People talk about him "never becoming World Class" when the reality is for me that he already is World Class at what he is best at. The trick with Sissoko is developing the parts of his game which aren't his forte, and in so doing making it far easier to fit him into the structure of a top-class team. It will come with him though, I'm absolutely convinced of it.

As for Rafa signing Eto and it being adisaster, there are two points. Firstly, I would be absolutely staggered if Samuel Eto was not a total success in English football. I have seen him play maybe four times, and it maybe early but... he is an absolutely fantastic player in my opinion. One to break the bank for. Secondly, if we are all wrong and he flopped, Rafa would be no more culpable than he was when he signed Morientes. It was simply extremely unfortunate that the player never came close to adapting to football over here. My only criticism about that transfer is that it took the manager way too long to accept the absolutely blindingly obvious fact that Morientes was never going to make it while he had a hole in his erse. It was almost as if Rafa just couldn't bring himself to believe that Nando wouldn't eventually get the hang of it. Eventually though, the boss got the message and had to admit that English football is indeed unique. Hopefully, he has seen the light with regard to other issues whereby what worked in Spain definately won't work here as well, but we'll have to wait until the team sheet for the first few games of next season to really know on that one       

[stmichael]

Interesting that "the worst player ever to pull on a Liverpool shirt" is apparently being scrapped over by Barcelona and Juventus, isn't it?


Here's an question to think about - say Rafa signs Eto'o for £27m and he's complete and utter gash for us, only scoring six in all competitions, would you slate Rafa for buying him?

For the first bit, it is not as "interesting" as it might seem St because we both know that anybody who is of that opinion is a fool. That said you are correct to point out that there are many who don't rate Sissoko at all, and in my humble opinion they are very wrong.

He remains the most destructive ball-winning midfiled player in Europe for me, and with development (which I think will come with experience) he could just be an absolutely monsterous player. People talk about him "never becoming World Class" when the reality is for me that he already is World Class at what he is best at. The trick with Sissoko is developing the parts of his game which aren't his forte, and in so doing making it far easier to fit him into the structure of a top-class team. It will come with him though, I'm absolutely convinced of it.

I'd agree with you Mick. I'm a huge fan of Sissoko. It just seems that ever since Mascherano's arrival, Momo has become another scapegoat in the same way the likes of Pennant, Zenden and Riise were earlier on in the season.

Honest to God, where have the Sissoko bashers all come from?

Was sitting behind a group of lads (Scousers by the way in case anyone was curious) at games towards the end of the season and honest to God, I couldn't believe what I was hearing- every time Sissoko did something wrong, they were straight on his back abusing him and were even talking about getting shut of him. Either they have short memories regarding his masterclass in the Nou Camp or are just deluded. FWIW Sissoko's performance in the Camp Nou that night was probably the best performance I've seen in person since Kaka first half/Gerrard second half in Istanbul.

Seems to me that a lot of people are getting on the lad's back since the signing of Mascherano and now people are saying how we don't need Momo anymore which is nonsense, especially with Alonso's future still unclear.

For me anyway, Momo has the potential to be one of the world's best. Let's not forget he's still young and has had a few bad injuries in a relatively short space of time, which are bound to affect an individual's form.

I know a lot of people have been comparing the lad with Javier but for me, the two are totally different players. Mascherano is more like the stereotypical holding player, just screening the back four and giving it easy whereas I feel that Momo has the potential to be a great box to box player. I know he has flattered to deceive at times when he's made it into the final third but the lad has a great engine on him and even started his career as a striker.

I really do feel that if at times, Rafa let him play with a bit more freedom, he could have a bigger say in proceedings in and around the box, as well as breaking up the opposition's attacks.

Anyway, not sure if this has meandered a bit off topic but I just thought I'd like to address the increasing band of Momo bashers who have suddenly crawled out of the woodwork.

[Bad Bob]

Interesting that "the worst player ever to pull on a Liverpool shirt" is apparently being scrapped over by Barcelona and Juventus, isn't it?


Here's an question to think about - say Rafa signs Eto'o for £27m and he's complete and utter gash for us, only scoring six in all competitions, would you slate Rafa for buying him?

For the first bit, it is not as "interesting" as it might seem St because we both know that anybody who is of that opinion is a fool. That said you are correct to point out that there are many who don't rate Sissoko at all, and in my humble opinion they are very wrong.

He remains the most destructive ball-winning midfiled player in Europe for me, and with development (which I think will come with experience) he could just be an absolutely monsterous player. People talk about him "never becoming World Class" when the reality is for me that he already is World Class at what he is best at. The trick with Sissoko is developing the parts of his game which aren't his forte, and in so doing making it far easier to fit him into the structure of a top-class team. It will come with him though, I'm absolutely convinced of it.

I'd agree with you Mick. I'm a huge fan of Sissoko. It just seems that ever since Mascherano's arrival, Momo has become another scapegoat in the same way the likes of Pennant, Zenden and Riise were earlier on in the season.

Honest to God, where have the Sissoko bashers all come from?

Was sitting behind a group of lads (Scousers by the way in case anyone was curious) at games towards the end of the season and honest to God, I couldn't believe what I was hearing- every time Sissoko did something wrong, they were straight on his back abusing him and were even talking about getting shut of him. Either they have short memories regarding his masterclass in the Nou Camp or are just deluded. FWIW Sissoko's performance in the Camp Nou that night was probably the best performance I've seen in person since Kaka first half/Gerrard second half in Istanbul.

Seems to me that a lot of people are getting on the lad's back since the signing of Mascherano and now people are saying how we don't need Momo anymore which is nonsense, especially with Alonso's future still unclear.

For me anyway, Momo has the potential to be one of the world's best. Let's not forget he's still young and has had a few bad injuries in a relatively short space of time, which are bound to affect an individual's form.

I know a lot of people have been comparing the lad with Javier but for me, the two are totally different players. Mascherano is more like the stereotypical holding player, just screening the back four and giving it easy whereas I feel that Momo has the potential to be a great box to box player. I know he has flattered to deceive at times when he's made it into the final third but the lad has a great engine on him and even started his career as a striker.

I really do feel that if at times, Rafa let him play with a bit more freedom, he could have a bigger say in proceedings in and around the box, as well as breaking up the opposition's attacks.

Anyway, not sure if this has meandered a bit off topic but I just thought I'd like to address the increasing band of Momo bashers who have suddenly crawled out of the woodwork.

To be fair, St. Mike, I think the Sissoko bashing is also very much related to the Alonso questioning, which itself stems largely from the Mascherano love-in!

Now, don't get me wrong--I think Mascherano has been utterly immense for us since signing.  But does that mean that one or even two of our other established CMs (meaning Alonso and Sissoko) are now surplus to requirements?  Absolutely not.  For one, Rafa will continue to rotate so keeping quality players in key positions is essential to making rotation work.  Swapping out a Gerrard or a Mascherano with an Alonso or Sissoko is a great, great option to have.  Second, Mascherano at some point will inevitably get injured or suffer a dip in form: it happens to all footballers.  We can't afford to be left scrambling to cover in those instances because we've got shut of Sissoko or Alonso or both.

So, Sissoko's still a useful weapon for us and I'd like to keep him (so would Rafa, according to today's Echo).  But, I doubt he'll ever develop into a great ball carrier/passer/attacking threat.  Nonetheless, his destructive brilliance has it's uses, he's been a great asset to the side and, as long as he's alright to spend more time on the bench, he'll still have a part to play for us.

[redtrader74]

Clearly, not every one of Rafa's signings has been a success but that hardly makes him unique amongst managers. It's always natural to compare a manager to his predecessor and one thing that impresses me with Rafa is that he's not scared to get rid of players he's signed that sunsequently under-perform as long as he is able to replace them.

Rafa's been restricted in comparison to other managers in the top four both in terms of how much he can spend and more critically what he's had to buy with it. I disagree that he's ever really had the option of spending £20m+ on a player since he came to LFC, partly because the board seemed to be less willing to let him spend big than they were with GH but mainly because in my opinion, we did need to improve the overall quality of the squad players, making the quality versus quantity debate a moot point.

Players like Xabi, Mascherano and Garcia were certainly worth what we paid for them. With the benefit of hindsight, Agger was a steal, proper highway robbery. Momo's given good value for what we paid and will either continue to do so, or be sold for a decent profit. Interesting that "the worst player ever to pull on a Liverpool shirt" is apparently being scrapped over by Barcelona and Juventus, isn't it? Kuyt will hopefully come into his own next season, playing up from with an out-and-out goalscorer to convert his hard work into goals, but if he doesn't I'm sure he'll be shipped out too.

When Rafa does get rid of one of his signings, by and large they've either cost us next to nothing to start with, or we've recouped a decent proportion of what we paid.

Only time will tell if he's got the talent and the cojones to play in the big league when it comes to transfers, but I think he has. Here's an question to think about - say Rafa signs Eto'o for £27m and he's complete and utter gash for us, only scoring six in all competitions, would you slate Rafa for buying him?

Very important point for those who choose to pick on Rafa's errors in the transfer market. He gets rid of those that do not perform, very quickly and for very little financial loss. All the good buys have definatly increased in value, including Sissoko who has suddenly become a 'donkey' since the arrival of Mascherano. The same Mascherano who is only ours for one more year.

Also had his name not been Robbie Fowler, do you think that would have been a bit of bad business?

[luvliverpool]

The "Rafa to resign" thread is going out of control, and well over half the posts are absolutely nothing to do with the rumour.

So, please keep any opinions on Rafa as a manager to a separate thread. They're all worthy opinions, just misplaced in a thread that was started because a source-less rumour has hit LFC forums today.

My tuppence-worth - I think Rafa has been a revelation since arriving at the club, although he hasn't yet assembled a squad good enough to compete on all fronts. This has meant that his policy of rotation has often failed because many of our back up players are well short of first 11 standard.

Anyone? 

If it was lack of quality players that made his rotation policy fail, why then did it, with the same players and rotation, work in the home games but not the away games?

If Rafa knew that it was the rotation policy that was causing our team to fail due to a lack of quality players to rotate, why did he continue to rotate in Europe if that was his priority. Surely he could have just rotated in the league, especially as we went out of both domestic cups early.

As for the Champs league final, I actually think his tactics were spot on in the first half , and I am quite confident that if we had got the first goal we would have won. My only gripe was he was slow to react to a changed situation and didnt throw on his subs earlier.

In my opinion he has done more than enough to earn our faith that he will get it right

Rafa used the rotation policy so we could acheive what we did!!! Once we was out of the race for the League then he made sure he always played what he beleived was the best 11 for the CL games. That's why we got to the Final!!!!!

[stmichael]

To be honest Benitez's attitude since the final has been pretty dissapointing and has left a sour taste in my mouth. It's all well and good asking for more money, as there's no doubt we havent been able to spend as much as our rivals for quite some time but the attitude is wrong i think. Firstly some of Rafa's coments have been a little derogatory to the current group of players, most of which he brought to the club. It's not the first time he's insinuated that he's been hampered by lack of funds, this means the players he's signed all know they werent first choice. How does that help in building a unified squad with a hunger to play for themselves, each other and their boss. 

Secondly and more importantly, as I stated earlier in this thread, in my view he's generally spent well and the talent we have at the club isnt far off what it needs to be, but his use of the talent available to him has been at times awful. For large spells last season, Xabi was unrecognisable from the player we signed, he looked listless and stagnant, being asked to play like Joey Barton when you can play like Guardiola etc must get on your nerves. Furthermore, Kuyt is a proven goalscorer but is playing as our first line of defence. Reminds me of Heskey's job under Houllier only cleverer and less physical.

But it's not just poor use of his outstanding assets i think there are a number of flaws to Rafas approach. His much maligned (by the media) rotation policy appears genuinely nutty at times. People spout the usual riposte whe the media cite rotation as a factor in our latest poor away performance,etc. It is namely, that United have rotated just as much as us. This is nonsense. Maybe United have gone as many consecutive games as us without fielding an unchanged side, but when do you ever, EVER see united make seven changes from one league side to the next, which is a drastic example but it has happened. Its not unusual for us to change four or five players from one league game to the next. Continuity is important. Maybe some of our new signings would have bedded in easier this year if they played with the same personnel around them two or three games in a row. Furthermore the policy doesnt always add up. Crouch was banging in goals and couldnt buy a start, while Rafa seemed to stick with Kuyt and Bellamy all to often. Players playing well find themselves dropped and players playing poorly are left in the team.

None of this is knee jerk reactionary stuff due to our defeat in Athens, its stuff ive felt all season, since it was patently obvious, from early on in the league at least that this was going to be another far from glorious season.

Rant over 

[Salty Sock]

I'm for the entire circumference!

[Emerald Red]

To be honest Benitez's attitude since the final has been pretty dissapointing and has left a sour taste in my mouth. It's all well and good asking for more money, as there's no doubt we havent been able to spend as much as our rivals for quite some time but the attitude is wrong i think. Firstly some of Rafa's coments have been a little derogatory to the current group of players, most of which he brought to the club. It's not the first time he's insinuated that he's been hampered by lack of funds, this means the players he's signed all know they werent first choice. How does that help in building a unified squad with a hunger to play for themselves, each other and their boss. 

Secondly and more importantly, as I stated earlier in this thread, in my view he's generally spent well and the talent we have at the club isnt far off what it needs to be, but his use of the talent available to him has been at times awful. For large spells last season, Xabi was unrecognisable from the player we signed, he looked listless and stagnant, being asked to play like Joey Barton when you can play like Guardiola etc must get on your nerves. Furthermore, Kuyt is a proven goalscorer but is playing as our first line of defence. Reminds me of Heskey's job under Houllier only cleverer and less physical.

But it's not just poor use of his outstanding assets i think there are a number of flaws to Rafas approach. His much maligned (by the media) rotation policy appears genuinely nutty at times. People spout the usual riposte whe the media cite rotation as a factor in our latest poor away performance,etc. It is namely, that United have rotated just as much as us. This is nonsense. Maybe United have gone as many consecutive games as us without fielding an unchanged side, but when do you ever, EVER see united make seven changes from one league side to the next, which is a drastic example but it has happened. Its not unusual for us to change four or five players from one league game to the next. Continuity is important. Maybe some of our new signings would have bedded in easier this year if they played with the same personnel around them two or three games in a row. Furthermore the policy doesnt always add up. Crouch was banging in goals and couldnt buy a start, while Rafa seemed to stick with Kuyt and Bellamy all to often. Players playing well find themselves dropped and players playing poorly are left in the team.

None of this is knee jerk reactionary stuff due to our defeat in Athens, its stuff ive felt all season, since it was patently obvious, from early on in the league at least that this was going to be another far from glorious season.

Rant over 

I think you've just nailed it in one there. Good post.

I think this season coming will be the real tester for Rafa and the new owners. A change in policy really is needed, and if Rafa hasn't learned from is mistakes in the league already, he never will IMO. Like you say, rotation really is damaging any kind of coherency within the squad, and players like Alonso havn' really been given much licence to do what they are naturally good at. Personally, I'd have him right in the centre of things pulling the strings, with someone like Mascherano taking his spot and portecting the back four.

I'm also sick of the sole striker thing, where players like Kuyt (and Heskey before him as you mentioned) were brought in with the intentions of scoring goals; to be our main hitman - only for them to be deployed as some sort of workhorse up front instead of a predator belonging in the box. Even Cisse, even though he doesn't really get much plaudits, was used as a wide player and was rarely in the centre of the box when needed. Bellamy has been treated in very much the same vain. It's not due to lack of tallent that the fella hasn't been able to make an impact like many sugest. If a player like Owen were to be brough back, it will not be the step up in class, or the immediate remedy for our lack of goals that people think imo. He's a similar player to Bellamy in many respects. I do feel that Rafa's tactics concerning our attacking options up front are a little one-dimensional at times. Too often has play been directed out the sides, only for a brilliant ball to be whipped in (from Gerrard or Pennant) from a promising possition to find absolutley no one has burst a gut to get on the end of it. So many times have I watched the Mancs do the same thing this season. The only difference was that they usually had a bank of 3 or 4 players lined up usually between the penalty spot and the keeper, with players like Scholes lurking just off the 'D' in case something drops. It's frustrating.

I could go on, but I'm just ranting on, so I'll stop.