Liverpool FC Forum

[7_Kewell]

I understand people's opinions on Mash and agree he's not been at his best this season, but he is a quality player and, like alonso last term, form is temporary.

Dossena, Babel, El Zhar and lucas can all go and i'd use the cash to buy a world class winger, which he are in desperate need of.

[DrPepe]

Probably yes you are right. But look at it this way. Before Rafa arrived we only had 2 players that we could rely on for goals. Owen and Gerrard. Owen left so we were left with Gerrard. Now we have just Torres and Gerrard. We should have more players that we can look to for goals after all this time.

i don't think there are any other teams in the league that have more than 2 players that score 20+ goals a season

we have 3 on 13+ goals, and yossi, keane ( ) on 7, xabi/riera 5 each


not a bad distribution imo

edit: but we do need more from midfield and options when torres twangs his hams

[Owzat]

masher overrated ? he has shown during the last couple of months exactly how big a cog he is in our team and as for selling him ? are people really serious ?

You're trotting out the line about Mascherano being pivotal, but you're not persuading anyone who isn't already of that view - and I disagree he is that important. We don't concede any less goals with him in the side than without, is he really needed against 75%+ of the sides we play anyway when we're looking to score goals and spend most of the time in possession and to top that off he's had a pretty poor season anyway. We've kept one clean sheet and conceded nine goals in the last four games in which he's played all. We might concede a few goals more if he was sold and someone less defensive took his place, but I bet his replacement would contribute more telling passing, goals etc etc

And yes I am DEADLY SERIOUS we should CONSIDER selling Mascherano, he's perhaps our least useful of our most saleable assets ie we could get a lot more for him than he's worth, like we did with Sissoko. We could sell half a dozen players most people on here don't want to raise the kind of money we might get for Mascherano. Who would you rather have, Tevez or Mascherano? Mascherano is good at what he does, but the team needs a lot more than just that. To me he's like breaking a world record to sign the best goalkeeper, with all the best will in the world there will be a lot of goals the keeper can do nothing about and his contribution is only going to be one thing. You might expect the keeper only to contribute with keeping the ball out of the back of the net, but midfielders need to do a damn sight more than just win the ball. If he was a better than average passer, scored a few goals a season, or provided an absolute wall of defensive cover such that we never conceded, then he might be a highly valuable asset.

But I wouldn't even rank him top five most valuable Liverpool players, he may free up others to do more attacking but he is not a solid wall and who's to say someone else couldn't do a better all-round job like Barry? But if your mind is closed to it then that says more about you than the suggestion. We won the Champions League without Sissoko or Mascherano, what have we won since? FA Cup, the final of which we conceded three with Sissoko in the side. Mascherano played only six of the first 16 games of the season, we coped fine without him - P10 W8 D2 L0. I rate Mascherano higher than Sissoko, but do we really need a DM that is so one dimensional?

[DrPepe]

masher overrated ? he has shown during the last couple of months exactly how big a cog he is in our team and as for selling him ? are people really serious ?

You're trotting out the line about Mascherano being pivotal, but you're not persuading anyone who isn't already of that view - and I disagree he is that important. We don't concede any less goals with him in the side than without, is he really needed against 75%+ of the sides we play anyway when we're looking to score goals and spend most of the time in possession and to top that off he's had a pretty poor season anyway. We've kept one clean sheet and conceded nine goals in the last four games in which he's played all. We might concede a few goals more if he was sold and someone less defensive took his place, but I bet his replacement would contribute more telling passing, goals etc etc

And yes I am DEADLY SERIOUS we should CONSIDER selling Mascherano, he's perhaps our least useful of our most saleable assets ie we could get a lot more for him than he's worth, like we did with Sissoko. We could sell half a dozen players most people on here don't want to raise the kind of money we might get for Mascherano. Who would you rather have, Tevez or Mascherano? Mascherano is good at what he does, but the team needs a lot more than just that. To me he's like breaking a world record to sign the best goalkeeper, with all the best will in the world there will be a lot of goals the keeper can do nothing about and his contribution is only going to be one thing. You might expect the keeper only to contribute with keeping the ball out of the back of the net, but midfielders need to do a damn sight more than just win the ball. If he was a better than average passer, scored a few goals a season, or provided an absolute wall of defensive cover such that we never conceded, then he might be a highly valuable asset.

But I wouldn't even rank him top five most valuable Liverpool players, he may free up others to do more attacking but he is not a solid wall and who's to say someone else couldn't do a better all-round job like Barry? But if your mind is closed to it then that says more about you than the suggestion. We won the Champions League without Sissoko or Mascherano, what have we won since? FA Cup, the final of which we conceded three with Sissoko in the side. Mascherano played only six of the first 16 games of the season, we coped fine without him - P10 W8 D2 L0. I rate Mascherano higher than Sissoko, but do we really need a DM that is so one dimensional?

i agree , and i think it is quite a negative factor for our team

he's a great player but is far too limited in what he provides overall

What we need is Alonso with Mascher's pace or Mascher with the ability of alonso on the ball.

That would free up our CM for another attacking player (ie. gerrard) and play 2 strikers up front

[Sabre]

I dispair. I really do. It's incredible I read yesteryear here Mascherano was top of the top, and a year later some of the same people consider seriously to sell him.

Then I read things like from an Argie I expect quality on the ball. As if the Argies never played with footballers that were workers, like Simeone and Mascherano. Men like Mascherano and Simeone were as pivotal as the most skilled ones in Argentina.

Plus, Mascherano's passing is underrated. It's underrated of course because people compare it to the unfair light of Gerrard and Alonso. But he chooses the right passes, and he executes them with quality, more often than not.

Without the ball, he's lightning quick in the tackle, he's a worker, and he's a clever player.

We should have learned the lesson of one average season shouldn't mean a selling of a player.

We should have learned the lesson that injuries, international weeks and tiredness will make our best players unavailable. We need quality. And we need deep quality if we want to compete in every competition. We need Mascherano.

[tubby]

Probably yes you are right. But look at it this way. Before Rafa arrived we only had 2 players that we could rely on for goals. Owen and Gerrard. Owen left so we were left with Gerrard. Now we have just Torres and Gerrard. We should have more players that we can look to for goals after all this time.

i don't think there are any other teams in the league that have more than 2 players that score 20+ goals a season

we have 3 on 13+ goals, and yossi, keane ( ) on 7, xabi/riera 5 each


not a bad distribution imo

edit: but we do need more from midfield and options when torres twangs his hams

Other teams have more than 1 esatblished striker as well as more creative midfielders.

[DrPepe]

I dispair. I really do. It's incredible I read yesteryear here Mascherano was top of the top, and a year later some of the same people consider seriously to sell him.

Then I read things like from an Argie I expect quality on the ball. As if the Argies never played with footballers that were workers, like Simeone and Mascherano. Men like Mascherano and Simeone were as pivotal as the most skilled ones in Argentina.

Plus, Mascherano's passing is underrated. It's underrated of course because people compare it to the unfair light of Gerrard and Alonso. But he chooses the right passes, and he executes them with quality, more often than not.

Without the ball, he's lightning quick in the tackle, he's a worker, and he's a clever player.

We should have learned the lesson of one average season shouldn't mean a selling of a player.

We should have learned the lesson that injuries, international weeks and tiredness will make our best players unavailable. We need quality. And we need deep quality if we want to compete in every competition. We need Mascherano.

as mentioned above , most recognise he is a quality player - but does we need alonso and mascherano in our team when we're struggling to break down stoke, west ham etc?

[DrPepe]

Probably yes you are right. But look at it this way. Before Rafa arrived we only had 2 players that we could rely on for goals. Owen and Gerrard. Owen left so we were left with Gerrard. Now we have just Torres and Gerrard. We should have more players that we can look to for goals after all this time.

i don't think there are any other teams in the league that have more than 2 players that score 20+ goals a season

we have 3 on 13+ goals, and yossi, keane ( ) on 7, xabi/riera 5 each


not a bad distribution imo

edit: but we do need more from midfield and options when torres twangs his hams

Other teams have more than 1 esatblished striker as well as more creative midfielders.

i agree, see my edit! 

[DanAn]

You guys are crazy wanting to sell Masherano. We have a team that is awesome, we're playing great football at the moment, just need to address a few holes out wide.

Now you want to bust up our central midfield paring for a cheaper option or worse break up the Torres\Gerrard partnership and pull gerrard back to midfield.

If it aint broke don't fix it.

Sell fringe players; Babel, Agger, Lucas, Dossena, Degen, Voronin, a few of our 50 keepers or reserve players. If Agger has to go then we should make the most of it and replacing him with a 190+ cm central defender that can score at corners.

Out: Lucas, Babel, Dossena and the junk (Voro, Itandje, etc)
In: Barry, Johnson, Tevez (IMO can play both LM and striker for us)

Probably means a net spending of about 20m but improves us massively. We don't need to be screwing with first team regulars.

[Owzat]

Probably yes you are right. But look at it this way. Before Rafa arrived we only had 2 players that we could rely on for goals. Owen and Gerrard. Owen left so we were left with Gerrard. Now we have just Torres and Gerrard. We should have more players that we can look to for goals after all this time.

i don't think there are any other teams in the league that have more than 2 players that score 20+ goals a season

we have 3 on 13+ goals, and yossi, keane ( ) on 7, xabi/riera 5 each


not a bad distribution imo

Actually Gerrard wasn't the goalscorer he is now

Gerrard's Premiership Goals

98/99 : 0 goals in 12 apps
99/00 : 1 goal in 29 apps
00/01 : 7 goals in 33 apps
01/02 : 3 goals in 28 apps
02/03 : 5 goals in 34 apps
03/04 : 4 goals in 34 apps

04/05 : 7 goals in 30 apps
05/06 : 10 goals in 32 apps
06/07 : 7 goals in 36 apps
07/08 : 11 goals in 34 apps
08/09 : 13 goals in 27 apps

Gerrard scored 20 goals in 170 apps under Houllier, he's scored 48 in 159 under Rafa - nearly two and a half times as many goals in fewer games.

With Kuyt and Gerrard scoring 10+ each in the Premiership we've had plenty of goals coming from midfield, not that Alonso and Riera couldn't score more. It takes the pressure of Torres although he has been absent a bit. We do need better cover for Torres, and more goals from the side opposite Kuyt which is why I think someone like Tevez could be perfect - able to play a Kuyt role on the left and cover for Torres.

None of the big four have more than 2 players that score 20+ goals a season, but they must get close some seasons bearing in mind teams play in excess of 50 games a season and it isn't too difficult to score around 100 goals

source : bbc

Arsenal (0) : Van Persie 17, Adebayor 16, Bendtner 12
Liverpool (1) : Gerrard 21, Torres 16, Kuyt 13
Chelsea (1) : Anelka 21, Lampard 19, Drogba 12
Man Utd (2) : Ronaldo 23, Rooney 20, Berbatov 14, Tevez 13

mancs have enough games left that Berbatov or Tevez could get close to or reach 20 goals. Drogba would be hard pressed to do so, Torres will be stretching it to get 4+ goals in four games. And you have to wonder how many the manc players would get if they didn't get rotated and rested for Carling Cup etc

But we could still do with more from Alonso and Riera, Vidic has got seven this season and he's a CB! Nani has six, Fletcher has four, Arshavin is on six already, Bendtner is cr ap and has 12, Gallas has six and he's not only a CB but been injured, while Nasri has seven and Walcott has six. Six or seven isn't too much to ask from players in a season of 50+ games and in which some are playing 20+ times in Premiership games alone. You might not expect Gerrard-esque volumes of goals, but one every fifth or sixth game isn't unreasonable from midfield - especially as advanced an attacking role as Riera plays.

POTY only has three goals, must be the worst ever POTY.

[redbeergoggles]

Must sell :Lucas ,Babel ,Dossena
Should sell :Aurellio ,Arbeloa

And if we really need the money release Mash - at the risk of being ripped to pieces, over rated in my opinion - from an Argentinian i don't need passion and heart i need quality with the ball.

Just one question : Is there a field where they grow people like you ? 

[DanAn]

Ohh and how the are we going to get Tevez if we sell Macherano?

[Sabre]

I dispair. I really do. It's incredible I read yesteryear here Mascherano was top of the top, and a year later some of the same people consider seriously to sell him.

Then I read things like from an Argie I expect quality on the ball. As if the Argies never played with footballers that were workers, like Simeone and Mascherano. Men like Mascherano and Simeone were as pivotal as the most skilled ones in Argentina.

Plus, Mascherano's passing is underrated. It's underrated of course because people compare it to the unfair light of Gerrard and Alonso. But he chooses the right passes, and he executes them with quality, more often than not.

Without the ball, he's lightning quick in the tackle, he's a worker, and he's a clever player.

We should have learned the lesson of one average season shouldn't mean a selling of a player.

We should have learned the lesson that injuries, international weeks and tiredness will make our best players unavailable. We need quality. And we need deep quality if we want to compete in every competition. We need Mascherano.

as mentioned above , most recognise he is a quality player - but does we need alonso and mascherano in our team when we're struggling to break down stoke, west ham etc?

Yes.

Because the most powerful Liverpool this season has been with the Mascherano-Alonso-Gerrard triangle.

I think the Alonso-Mascherano axis is one of the best of Europe. I don't know what the media says there, probably they're wánking over that average player, Carrick. But the media here says so.

Gerrard seems comfortable in his current position, and this year he has probably reached his top as a footballer, when players like ZIdane mention him as world class.

The Alonso-Mascherano axis has been succesful this season and I don't want to see that axis broken.

If we have to look to why we didn't win everygame of the competition break up teams that are very deeep, we must look at absences like Torres when he's injured, and poor forms of wing players.

But the axis of the midfield? Don't fix what's not broken. If you want to sell Lucas, ok, we can easily bring more quality and use it (Arshavin,Modric(?)).

The Alonso-Mascherano axis had a "negative" lavel last season. Since both are DM people said, it has to be negative. But we're a team that we make more goals than most if not all the teams. So I don't see the negativeness anywhere.

And last but not least, Alonso needs a compatible player beside him. Hamman was a quality player, but less compatible with Alonso. Because Hamman didn't run with the ball that well and he is a distribution DM like Alonso (more sober, less Hollywood, but still the same role). Mascherano covers the few limitations Alonso has and makes a very good partnership with Alonso. Gerrard is compatible too because he's world class running with the ball, but then, if you play him alongside Alonso (and that was succesful this season too in the first games of the competition), Gerrard is not so free to do what he does best (destroying teams in the last third of the pitch)

So again, keep Mascherano please.

[stmichael]

The only problem is we can't operate anywhere near the same level as we do when both Alonso and Mascherano are alongside each other in the middle of the park -especially if Alonso is the one missing from the lineup. That said without Masch we suffer as well but not as much as when we're without Alonso.

The problem is that Gerrard now days is playing as a 2nd striker, gone are the days were we can use him as a 3rd choice CM -these days Lucas is clearly our 3rd choice CM. I'm not saying Lucas doesn't warrent being 3rd choice CM but that you really need 4 quality CM's in your 1st team squad, I mean we have 4 quality CB's in our 1st team squad, no?

If we were able to use Gerrard as a 3rd choice CM -without reducing our threat in the final 3rd, there wouldn't be the need to sign a CM this summer.

[GYBS]

Probably yes you are right. But look at it this way. Before Rafa arrived we only had 2 players that we could rely on for goals. Owen and Gerrard. Owen left so we were left with Gerrard. Now we have just Torres and Gerrard. We should have more players that we can look to for goals after all this time.

add kuyts goals plus yossis and a few others chipping - scoring goals isnt the problem as we are the league top scorers - its the breaking down of defences where we fall down - thats where we need a more creative player coming in - not a pure winger but a player that can wander both left right and up front while creating chances and chipping in with goals .