Liverpool FC Forum

[lakes10]

doing an average job i put.

he needs to step his game up in the new few weeks.

[Judge]

Is this poll just for this season or rafas reign as a whole ?!?

This season - good job

Overall Pretty good job .

You've missed out pretty good aswell Judge! 

eff off effes 

[Greavesie]

Jesus are these threads going to become a monthly thing? For this season I have to say average, I really didn't expect to have lost two games so soon and our defence has been, well......w@nk

but overall he's done a good job

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

Very good job taking into account the only money he's had to spend has come from selling last year's Player of the Year - Xabi. That along with he hasn't had a fit squad to choose from with Agger, Skrtel, Masch, Riera, El Zhar, Aurelio, Aquilani and to some extent Carra all on the sidelines at some point.

Then the same moaning b******s complained last year we drew too many games are now whinging this season despite us drawing, erm how many is it again? Is it none so far this season? I think it is.

Top scorers in the league, no points dropped in the league for September so I'd say he's doing a very good job under the constraints he's had.

In Rafa We (or at least those of us who know what supporting Liverpool Football Club means) Trust

[Greavesie]

average job this season that could easily turn to poor if we lose to Chelsea in a couple of day... Overall hes been average too when the CL runs are brought into the equation

overall average? dear lord

[bigmick]

I voted "others" as I think he's done an OK job.

Given the time he's had and the money he's had, and given the team he inherited I think the trophy return is poor. Had we simply left Houllier in charge (and thank God we didn't) would we have won two more trophies in five seasons? Quite possibly given Gerrard having his peak years and particuarly if Houllier had been given the same financial backing that Rafa has had. That doesn't mean that Houllier is as good at his job as Benitez because I don't think he is, but based on their records in terms of trophies there is little in it (in fact Rafa probably comes off second best in truth). Had we put say a Mourinho in charge for five seasons (not saying we should have, I'm simply asking the question. Deep breaths all) then would we have won more than two trophies and none for the last three seasons? Well unsurprisingly I think we would have yes.

People at this point will throw Wenger into the equation (they normally do) but I don' think the comparison holds good. For one thing, four seasons ago they won the title without getting beaten all season. Since then, Wenger has replaced the whole team and has actually spent a negative amount of money. It is arguable whether or not we are currently a better team than them (I think we are) but in terms of depth and squad strength, unfortunately for us there is no comparison. It's also worth noting that Arsenal sold their best defender and their best attacker for over 40 million quid in the Summer, while we sold only Alonso out of our first team.

What pulls Rafa's efforts up from the average to the above average are two things. Firstly, it is beyond dispute that we are a better team than when he took over. You could argue given the time he's had, the money he's had and the Gerrard he's had that there is no wonder, but whichever way you look at it we have improved so he deserves credit for that. The second tick is in the Champions League where we have made a habit of reaching the proper part of the competition, when it actually starts. Once we get there we haven't got the best of records recently, but getting there consistently deserves some credit.

As per usual though, we are very much a work in progress. Win nothing for the fourth year in succession and although I don't doubt there will numerous reasons/excuses put forward, it surely must be approaching the point where people will start ot look at it. Win something, most particularly the Premiership, and the reign of Rafa suddenly looks good, fantastic even if we win the title.

It's not about being a real fan I don't think or any of that old nonsense, it's about belief. Unfotunately someone writing on here "believe believe believe" doesn't really do it for me (I wish it did), nor does somebody giving it one of those buttrock thingies. the way i see it, if you think Rafa will eventually lead us to the summit, if you believe that, then you will find a way to justify it in the sense that he's doing a good job. If you don't believe that, then you'll find a different slant to say the job he is doing is merely OK (even the most fervent anti must surely accept he's doing that well at least).

My belief is that he's done just better than OK. As to the future, we'll see.

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

I voted "others" as I think he's done an OK job.

And that's where you should have stopped as the rest is drivel.

Given the time he's had and the money he's had, and given the team he inherited I think the trophy return is poor.

But his record in getting us to finish at least runners up isn't. Carling Cup 05, World Club Championships 05, European Cup 07 and League 09. At least runners up in 8 competitions, the four mentioned along with winning the European Cup 05, Super Cup 06, FA Cup 06, Charity Shield 06.

Had we simply left Houllier in charge (and thank God we didn't) would we have won two more trophies in five seasons? Quite possibly given Gerrard having his peak years and particuarly if Houllier had been given the same financial backing that Rafa has had. That doesn't mean that Houllier is as good at his job as Benitez because I don't think he is, but based on their records in terms of trophies there is little in it (in fact Rafa probably comes off second best in truth).

Yes we possibly may have, then again we may possibly have not. Pretty pointless argument as it didn't happen.

Had we put say a Mourinho in charge for five seasons (not saying we should have, I'm simply asking the question. Deep breaths all) then would we have won more than two trophies and none for the last three seasons? Well unsurprisingly I think we would have yes.

Well again, yes we possibly may have. Then again we possibly may not have. So it's still pretty pointless as we didn't have Mourinho in charge and thank god we didn't.

People at this point will throw Wenger into the equation (they normally do) but I don' think the comparison holds good. For one thing, four seasons ago they won the title without getting beaten all season.

Four seasons ago was 05/06. Chelsea won the league that year, not Arsenal. In fact we finished above Arsenal four seasons ago. But never mind, I'll correct you.

Six seasons ago (2003/04 - Houllier's last year) Arsenal went unbeaten and won Wenger his third Premiership title.

Since then, Wenger has replaced the whole team and has actually spent a negative amount of money. It is arguable whether or not we are currently a better team than them (I think we are) but in terms of depth and squad strength, unfortunately for us there is no comparison.

In terms of depth? You'd rather see Senderos then Agger? You'd rather see Eboue than Babel? You'd rather see Bentder ahead of any player in the Premiership let alone one of ours? You'd rather see Gibbs than Aurelio? You'd rather see Thomas "can't stay fit for 2 hours" Rosicky ahead of Benayoun? OK, we have a different idea of talent.

It's also worth noting that Arsenal sold their best defender and their best attacker for over 40 million quid in the Summer, while we sold only Alonso out of our first team.

So Arbeloa wasn't part of the first team? I guess not in your mind.

What pulls Rafa's efforts up from the average to the above average are two things. Firstly, it is beyond dispute that we are a better team than when he took over. You could argue given the time he's had, the money he's had and the Gerrard he's had that there is no wonder, but whichever way you look at it we have improved so he deserves credit for that.

You could also argue the fact that it's down to his managerial ability to get the best out of Stevie or his astuteness in the transfer market or his tactical awareness.

The second tick is in the Champions League where we have made a habit of reaching the proper part of the competition, when it actually starts. Once we get there we haven't got the best of records recently, but getting there consistently deserves some credit.

2 finals, 1 semi, 1 quarter and a last 16 place and we haven't got a great record? Give over lad, now you're just acting like a tit.

As per usual though, we are very much a work in progress. Win nothing for the fourth year in succession and although I don't doubt there will numerous reasons/excuses put forward, it surely must be approaching the point where people will start ot look at it.

Look at what? The sky? The sea? The contents of your head (can't see there being much there)? Rafa's position as manager? What?

Win something, most particularly the Premiership, and the reign of Rafa suddenly looks good, fantastic even if we win the title.

When we win the title and Rafa's reign already looks good, very good even.

It's not about being a real fan I don't think or any of that old nonsense, it's about belief. Unfotunately someone writing on here "believe believe believe" doesn't really do it for me (I wish it did), nor does somebody giving it one of those buttrock thingies. the way i see it, if you think Rafa will eventually lead us to the summit, if you believe that, then you will find a way to justify it in the sense that he's doing a good job. If you don't believe that, then you'll find a different slant to say the job he is doing is merely OK (even the most fervent anti must surely accept he's doing that well at least).

Well I do believe that come May 2010, Steven Gerrard will be lifting the league title aloft.

My belief is that he's done just better than OK. As to the future, we'll see.

Which is a contradiction to your opening sentence which said

I voted "others" as I think he's done an OK job.

It's gone from an OK job to just better than OK in the space of the same post.

The mind boggles it really does.

[NANNY RED]

Oh i love you Baldrick

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

Oh i love you Baldrick

Well you're only human aren't you.

[bigmick]

Lovely post Baldy

If getting us to be runners up was what it was all about, then yes he's done well I'll give you that. As for the "pointless argument" bit, what would have happened if we'd left Houllier in charge/put Mourinho in charge, it's not pointless mate . You judge a manager, a player, the value of your house, how long your todger is in comparison to and relative to everything else. If for example mark Hughes is given 150 million quid to spend each season and wins feck all for four seasons, I think it will be reasonable for those who are giving him the cash to ask if they've got the right bloke. As part of that process they'll say "just hink if so and so had been here with that backing and that amount of time". I do realise that comparisons with other managers achievements in similar situations makes some people uneasy (for obvious reasons) but because it makes you uncomfortable it doesn't render the comparison "pointless". If only life were so simple .

I'm surprised you've chosen to dispute that Arsenal have more depth than us, but it deserves a thread on its own. I can only think you're slipping into your agent provocateur mode, as for me they have more of it. Nicolas Bendtner is a very good player as well IMHO, but there you go.

The Champions League record has been done before in the "how hard is it?" thread. Suffice to say, I think as an absolute minimum for big four English clubs, the last sixteen is where you are aiming and in all probability the last eight. Once you've got there, the competition proper starts. Now as I've said, credit where credit's due we generally do get there, but once we do our recent record is not so sparkling. Usually we run into an English team, and usually we get beat.

The other bit is your "we will win the title" bit, and I agree with you that if we do then he is a hero. We will see.


Great post though, I enjoyed reading it .

[tubby]

I think he is doing a very good job. Considering the lack of finance at his fingertips he is doing really well but it remains to be seen where we will finish this season. aT The end of the day out of all the top 4 (or 5) clubs we are probably the least equipped in terms of strength in depth. That is not down to how much he has had to spend as we all know we have always employed a 1 in 1 out system where Rafa only really gets to spend a small amount on top of what he rakes in. And that wasn't even the case this year. All this and we only lost out on the league last year be it for a few points dropped at home. Our record against the top 4 last season and our European index coefficient shows how powerful a team we are when we want to be so the progress is there to see.

[Ciggy]

Rafa's part of the furniture now, like Wenger is to Arsenal, Fergie is to Man U, it would be hard to imagine our club with out him.

Anyone thinking or hoping that he will be leaving anytime soon needs to get them thoughts out of their head.

He wont be going anywhere for a very long time.

[bigmick]

Rafa's part of the furniture now, like Wenger is to Arsenal, Fergie is to Man U, it would be hard to imagine our club with out him.

Anyone thinking or hoping that he will be leaving anytime soon needs to get them thoughts out of their head.

He wont be going anywhere for a very long time.

I agree with that totally. For one thing we couldn't afford to get rid even if we wanted to. He's at Liverpool for another three years at least I think, even if we don't actually win anything.

My guess is though that this season we will win something. I don't think it will be the league, but my guess is that it will be either the FA Cup or the Carling Cup.

I say this for a couple of reasons. As far as the league is concerned I don't think our squad is anywhere near strong enough and I don't think we will be that close TBPH. Third or fourth 10-16 points back is my ridiculously early call. Given this, I think we will be relatively early "concentrating on the cups" which will give us a bit of an advantage. Secondly, as we haven't won anything for a bit we'll be really up for it and giving it rock all. thirdly, it's about time we had a bit of luck in the semi's and stuff. Fouthly, Rafa is the type of manager who will always polarise opinion by doing just enough.

I take us to win the FA Cup this season.

[tubby]

He is one of the best managers in the world. If he left us the best clubs in Europe would  be in a race for his services. It's only down to those lying sneaky shyster owners that he hasn't been given what he needs to win the league. I just hope in the next few years he gets that extra bit he needs as our squad is so thin beyond the first 11.

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

OK Biggy.

Firstly it's still pointless to say what if this had happened or what if that happened. If my aunty had knackers she'd be my uncle, as it is she's my aunty. See a pointless argument. Houllier didn't stay in charge and Mourinho didn't get the job, so it's pointless debating what would have happened because truth is - neither did.

As for Mark Hughes, who gives a toss about that former bitter, chav and manc? What he has to do with this debate only you know.

Now Arsenal, again considering this a discussion about our manager, why we're discussing the depth of the Arsenal squad is still beyond me but I'll give this one a go (again). They don't have more depth than us. And if you think Bendtner is a good player than it's no reason why you don't see the talent we have.

As for our Champions League record, according to you the English clubs should reach the last 16 every time. Fair enough. Since Rafa has been here we have reached the last 16 every time and only once failed to go beyond it. Now for the debate about how we usually get beat by English sides.

Here's a bit of history for you.

2004/05 Semi Final first leg 0-0 against Chelsea (England)
2004/05 Semi Final second leg 1-0 to Liverpool against Chelsea (England)
2005/06 Group Stage game 2 0-0 against Chelsea (England)
2005/06 Group Stage game 6 0-0 against Chelsea (England)
2006/07 Semi Final first leg 1-0 to Chelsea (England)
2006/07 Semi Final second leg 1-0 to Liverpool against Chelsea (England)
2007/08 Quarter Final first leg 1-1 with Arsenal (England)
2007/08 Quarter Final second leg 4-2 to Liverpool against Arsenal (England)
2007/08 Semi Final first leg 1-1 against Chelsea (England)
2007/08 Semi Final second leg 3-2 to Chelsea (England)
2008/09 Quarter Final first leg 3-1 to Chelsea (England)
2008/09 Quarter Final second leg 4-4 against Chelsea (England)

So 3 defeats in 12 games against English opposition is usually losing? Since we've won 3 games as well, we usually win do we? We usually draw, half of the games between ourselves and English opposition in Europe have ended in draws during Rafa's time here.