Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

Number eight.

[112-1077774096]

yea owzat, there have been pluses, but even last week is tinged with a feeling of 'what could have been'.we have shown this season we can beat the mancs, we beat the chavs, we drew with arsenal, but we still fail when it comes to the leagues waifs and strays.

i don't buy into the belief we would still be top bar injuries, we beat the mancs at home without torres and gerrard, we had the chance to win it this season but rafa got negative again and if last week showed us anything its that we have the ability to attack and attacking football wins games.

i said before that rafa needs to grow some balls and that still stands

[Ciggy]

Number eight.

[Sabre]

Salty we already have one of the following thread and i'm pretty sure this will be locked soon

I understand the mods wanting one thread about this.

*So mine should be locked or sent to the polls section, and keep the discussion here with the new faith indicator*

Perhaps the thread starter could include a linky to the old thread for the sake of information to readers, in order to let them know this is a follow-up discussion.

[Judge]

link to old part one thread

[Sir Roger]

Hes going nowhere soon

[Espionage]

Is Rafa play the foulgander bad?

[tubby]

Cant believe how negative people are still being about Rafa. FFS We spanked 2 of the biggest teams in the world and deservedly so and yet people want him out. Well you all he is not going anywhere.

[Sabre]

Cant believe how negative people are still being about Rafa. FFS We spanked 2 of the biggest teams in the world and deservedly so and yet people want him out. Well you all he is not going anywhere.

In all honesty, I don't think two games, no matter how brilliant they are will be able to change the opinion about he's the right man for the next 5 years. People have an opinion bearing in mind the whole reign.

In fact, I don't think those who deep down didn't believe he was the man in summer changed their minds when we were top of the table some months. Only a League title will convince the totally unconvinced, and even then, some of them *might* think that Rafa was a tad lucky.

It's normal that the undecided people become a 6 after these two victories, but I didn't and I don't expect many switches from "2" to "5".

[Emerald Red]

Over the course of Rafa's reign, it could be argued that his team have been seriously unlucky the past few seasons when playing head-to-head with the big guns. We normally boss those games, but hardly registered a point. Last season, we picked up four points, and it's been like that in previous seasons also.

Now, previous managers like Houllier did manage to somehow get the odd win or two, but in no way was the league as competitive as it is now. We practically stole games back then with smash and grab, then defend with 11 men behind the ball, while Roy Evans' teams would just simply capitulate to a hammering once every so often. In 17 years or so, we now have a manager that has built a side that doesn't go for the smash and grab (or contrary to popular deluded belief of some) go for the negative and overly-cautious approach when playing the biggest and best clubs the world has to offer. As I've stated, in previous seasons under Rafa, we've lacked the spark up front against the big clubs in the EPL. We now seem to have found that killer instinct, and especially when the odds are against us when going behind. You have to ask the question: would Evan's or Houllier have been capable of constructing a side and sending them out to do a total demolition of the current European champions in their own back yard, and systematically make boys out of probably the most famous name in world football in Real Madrid? Simple answer: no f*cking way!

Of course people will jump onto this post and be quick to remind me of your Stoke's, West Ham's etc etc. It would be a valid point. But that's not to say that Chelsea and United havn't slipped up as well when there was so called "banker" three pointer games too. You also factor in the fact that Torres and Gerrard are the absolute driving force of our team when paired together, but have only played 9 times prior to the United match, and it's safe to say that you could feasibly add another 5 points at least to our overall tally. I don't think this can be argued with either. It's not an excuse. It's just a fact of football that if you're missing your main goal threat all season, then any team will suffer. It's also a fact that without Ronaldo in the United team last season, they could potentially have won sweet f*ck all such was the circumstances and importance of his goals.

This Liverpool team is on course for great things. The thrashing of United on Saturday was not a fluke or a flash in the pan. Our biggest win over them in what, over 40 years? More? United's biggest defeat since 1992. It's also our first double over them for as long as I can remember.

Now I don't know about anyone else, but looking to sack this manager now that we have a side capable of destroying top sides in such a manner just sounds like complete stupidity and bullheaded arrogancy built up from a view from a previous period where things weren't going to their plan or their expectations. Get over it and over yourselves. So you want a new manager? You fail to stipulate who. Mourinho? He's the Inter coach, punches fans in the face, makes lewd and demeaning gestures at rivals fans and teams, and gets dumped out of Europe time and time again by teams we batter, or ourselves. He's the Liverpool way personified that fella. Don't get me wrong, if he did come here, I'd back him like I've backed Rafa simply for being the boss. After him, let's see...hmm...it really is a bit thin for top class managers, isn't it? Not to mention that if another comes in, he'll require his players for his vision, which will take more time. Who knows, we may win the league within 5 seasons with a new manager, but then again Rafa's Liverpool are looking as if they are on the brink and capable of doing it very soon anyway.

[Emerald Red]

Cant believe how negative people are still being about Rafa. FFS We spanked 2 of the biggest teams in the world and deservedly so and yet people want him out. Well you all he is not going anywhere.

In all honesty, I don't think two games, no matter how brilliant they are will be able to change the opinion about he's the right man for the next 5 years. People have an opinion bearing in mind the whole reign.

In fact, I don't think those who deep down didn't believe he was the man in summer changed their minds when we were top of the table some months. Only a League title will convince the totally unconvinced, and even then, some of them *might* think that Rafa was a tad lucky.

It's normal that the undecided people become a 6 after these two victories, but I didn't and I don't expect many switches from "2" to "5".

Such is the fickle nature of the football supporter, like the concept of love is fickle to some people also. If Rafa's Liverpool does win the league, then what do the people who said they wanted him out and nothing else say about it? What do the people who said he will never win a title have to say about it? Will they all of a sudden just change their minds like the wind changes it's direction? Isn't this a contradiction of the very definition of the term "supporter"? I don't know. It's a parodox.

[account deleted by request]

The simple TRUTH Emerald, we have a team that was good enough to win the league, but the manager has made a catalogue of errors that have cost us too many points. Two wins against top sides does not in my opinion make up for all the errors that proceeded them.

Overjoyed that we won yes, believe that Rafa is the man to win the prem for us .....no. I think we will ALWAYS have too many Rafa day's , the days when he gambles with the formation and the team and it bites us in the a$$. 

As I posted elsewhere, thw mancs have dropped 8 points to clubs outside the top four......... we have dropped 24. That tells me that the team is good enough but maybe the manager isn't.

[ConnO'var]

I voted 2. I'm happy with the recent improvement but I still don't think he'll bring us the premiership. For me, if nothing else, the victories we've had over the big boys this year simply reinforces the fact that we're good enuff. But fear of losing or simply underestimating the lesser light have been our downfall.

And that is down to Rafa's set-up and he's apparent dislike of flair players.... players we sorely need to unlock 10 men defences. This overcautiousness (IMHO), is never going to win us the league. We've improved.... of that there can be no doubt..... but not enough for the time and money invested in Rafa's project. I believe his mentality and methods will not change and as I have no faith in the man's methods, it is my opinion that, come the end of the season, it's time for Mohamed to part with the immovable mountain.

Even if we win the CL, it would be nothing more than a stay of execution. The only way I'd believe that he should be given another year, is if he pulls off the seemingly impossible now and brings back the 19th league title this season. None of this contract shenenigans should be discussed..... He needs to earn it.

If he pulls it off this year, I would happily eat humble pie and I swear I will never utter another word about his methods.
Forget humble pie, I will eat my filthy safety boots if we do it.

Thanks Rafa.... you did a sterling job to get us to this stage.... but I feel we need someone else to take us to the next level.

[Emerald Red]

The simple TRUTH Emerald, we have a team that was good enough to win the league, but the manager has made a catalogue of errors that have cost us too many points. Two wins against top sides does not in my opinion make up for all the errors that proceeded them.

Overjoyed that we won yes, believe that Rafa is the man to win the prem for us .....no. I think we will ALWAYS have too many Rafa day's , the days when he gambles with the formation and the team and it bites us in the a$$. 

As I posted elsewhere, thw mancs have dropped 8 points to clubs outside the top four......... we have dropped 24. That tells me that the team is good enough but maybe the manager isn't.

I'm not so sure. I do agree, he has been at fault for some of those points dropped. Without question. But some of our players can be held accountable also. If we can destroy teams like United, and beat Chelsea twice, surely we can beat the lesser teams too when we're in the mood for it. It's not exactly as if United have found it easy either against teams outside of the top 4. Yes, they have picked up more points, but for a while they were 1-0 specialists, and got lucky. There's a very narrow margin. Is it luck, Fergie's tactical nouse and experience of winning the league, or quality and depth of squad? Is it injuries? Then again, that'll be luck also.

I do think if Rafa knows how to beat the bigger sides, then he certainly knows how to beat the lesser ones also, but is prone to being too clever for his own good which results in us dropping points we shouldn't. I'm not sure either if what has been going on with the owners and the board has any kind of negative effect, but it's bound to. I'm not using that as an argument of excuse. I'm on the fence regarding that debate, but I honestly do believe that if we were to play Stoke, West Ham and any other team we dropped points against tomorrow with the system Rafa has been playing the past few matches with Torres and Gerrard in sync with eachother as they are now, then we'd win by a clear distance. Put simply, I just think it would be a massive mistake for him to be sacked or to leave and I admit that the last two results have a huge influence in that thinking.

[Owzat]

The simple TRUTH Emerald, we have a team that was good enough to win the league, but the manager has made a catalogue of errors that have cost us too many points. Two wins against top sides does not in my opinion make up for all the errors that proceeded them.

Overjoyed that we won yes, believe that Rafa is the man to win the prem for us .....no. I think we will ALWAYS have too many Rafa day's , the days when he gambles with the formation and the team and it bites us in the a$$. 

As I posted elsewhere, thw mancs have dropped 8 points to clubs outside the top four......... we have dropped 24. That tells me that the team is good enough but maybe the manager isn't.

Simply put, do you judge Rafa on :-

Results vs Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal : P5 W4 D1 L0 PTS 13.

Or on :-

Results vs the rest : P24 W13 D9 L2 PTS 48.

?

Bottom line is we can beat Man Utd home and away every season and it won't influence our title bid, the results against the rest will. We've beaten Chelsea and Man Utd home and away and BOTH are above us, albeit Chelsea on GD. So we've taken SIX POINTS off both and they're at least six points better than us against the rest - the mancs despite playing one game less.

If we are happy to be 2nd, 3rd or 4th best in return for a few glorious wins that might even end in a Cup win then that's what we know Rafa can manage. But we want the league, and no matter how great winning in Istanbul, at Wembley, at Stamford Bridge and at old trafford was, it doesn't (quite) make up for 18 years and counting without the holy grail.

Even though we beat the mancs home and away, they still boast being Premiership and European Champions, and if they win it again this season they'll have another league title to come back at us with - and it will be their number 18. Rafa may have brought us a European Cup in four previous seasons, the mancs have landed one European Cup and two league titles in the same time with a third looking their's to lose

And if Rafa is so clever as to beat the best club in the country, how come he can't beat the others?!!?!? Like someone who can tell you all the prime numbers between 1 and 1000, but can't add 2 and 2. I'd love Rafa to win the league, I've been hoping he will since the day he arrived. But hope springs eternal is more like hope's sprung a leak these days