Liverpool FC Forum

[RedBen]

Right, well I'll start by saying that I think its a good time to change.

It pretty much went down hill from here.....

We are top of the league and you want to replace the manager?

Well we aren't going to win the league so why not?

Thanks for informing, now we can skip the next 21 league games and use our time for something else.
I'm off to read 'War and peace'

[kazza]

At half time in Istanbul I am curious what you thought, odds are it was something along the lines of "we will lose 5-0"

That has to be the most pathetic arguement ever! Absoloutely grade "A" rubbish. It was nearly four years ago for a start, what the has that got to do with us not beating Hull, Stoke, Fulham or West Ham at home this season?

Absoloutely nothing lad.

Point is not that we won that match, point is you can be a half empty kind of person or a half full kind of person. Clearly you the half empty kind. My guess is no matter what the situation you would be critical (even when we win the prem).

People talk about winning the prem as a measure of success when it is a very difficult thing to do. Twenty teams all spending lots of cash with the ones that win spending the most (we got Keane and United got Berbatov). We are overachieving and yet it is not good enough for some. It is along way to go, we are top for now and we have lost fewer games than anyone else (including those that outspent us , again). We seem to be having trouble with teams that park the bus in front of goal and we cannot break them down, but we have beaten Chelsea away and Utd at home and we will beat Arsenal. All in all I think we have become a pretty good side with young players.

Raffa is the right man for the job.

[metalhead]

I think its a fair constructive, without any abuse criticism from Stu here of the manager

I don't agree that Rafa will never win us the league, it all depends on the man himself. I don't think its the time to change the manager, because of the boardroom troubles and the economic crisis, I think we need to stick with the current manager.

[Bam]

If it does go wrong this season (and I don't mind being honest enough to admit it's looking more likely than it did three weeks ago), where have we gone wrong? Is it simply one of those things, is it Rafa's fault, the players fault or what? Is it indicative of the fact that he will never win us the Prem, or should we be simply thankful that he's got us into a position where we can actually challenge for once, if indeed "he" has?

Aside from silliness at the back recently with far too much chopping and changing for no reason (which has done us no favours at all IMHO) there has been much less styling so you couldn't put the blame for our recent demise there. Torres being injured has obviously been a bitter blow, as most people identified he and Gerrard staying fit as a prerequisite to us sustaining a challenge. My guess is though that if we did start to fall by the wayside (and indeed even if we don't), people would begin to focus on the Summer signings and what value they brought to proceedings. On the face of it the signings were necessary, but if you actually inspect the value they've added to the team it does make you wonder a bit.

So lets look at it, the best part of 40 million quid and what did we get?

Well, we got a striker who we don't play, and when we do we haul him off in each match after an hour or so. He hasn't at any stage even looked like getting going, and any potential confidence he might have picked up from his rare goalscoring appearances has been dashed on the rocks of the "next game rotation" policy. Whatever the thinking is and was about such a plan, Keane should have taken solace in the fact that it wasn't personal, it's a bit of a Rafa thing. Crouch could tell him all about being in a far richer vein of form than Keane ever was before being promtly rotated out of it, while even Rafa's so called favourite son Kuyt had to endure being benched after finding the net. After seemingly months of trying without any discernable success to score a goal or even look like doing so, he turned in ecstacy at St James park as the ball ricoched off his knee and broke his barren run. Relief was etched all over his little chops as he ran away, only to be followed by bemusement as he was promptly dropped for the next match. Quite what the thinking is behind such a theory I can't be sure, perhaps it works a treat in Spain where players celebrate with such passion when they score it could be that they need a rest in the next fixture so emotionally draining is the whole experience. Who knows?, certainly not this cocktail barman.

I think we can safely say though without any fear of contradiction, whatever methods have been employed within the club in order to make sure Keane settles as quickly as possible haven't been a roaring success it's fair to say. Whether it's Keane's fault, Rafa's fault or even my fault I'm fecked if I know, but so far his signing looks less than inspired when you look at his recent form (you can't say current because currently he doesn't play). Given the fact that he is the only striker we have apart from Torres (and lets face it, he is) and he can't get a game even when the Spaniard is out injured, you have to ask why the manager decided to shell out 20 million quid for him three months ago. Or I should say you might ask, because you don't have to if you don't want.

We also shelled out a lot of cash on a left back who I think most people agree isn't very good. We certainly needed a left back as whether you rate Aurelio or think he's a donkey, he simply isn't fit very often. So we needed a left back assuming the lad Insua isn't good enough I suppose, and based on his performance the other day I wouldn't necessarily be writing him off. We bought ourselves one, but quite simply he is awful. If this lad can turn it around and become a good player from where he is currently, I for one will be absolutely staggered.

We splashed out on a reserve goalie. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about goalies, but on first look he seems to me to be at best OK (if i'm honest I don't think he's good enough).

By a distance the best signing of the lot based on what we've seen so far was Riera. He has given the team balance, scored the odd goal, provided the odd assist. His arrival has meant we don't have to play Babel anymore down the left, Babel who we paid 11 million for a couple of years back. He was a striker back then, but we don't like playing him up front either. So when we are labouing for the second half against Hull and in desperate need of a goal, we have 31 million quids worth of strikers on the bench (not my valuation, the managers) and we don't bring either on to try and score one. we might have thought they were worth 31 million quid when we bought them, but we don't think they will significantly improve our chances of scoring a goal.

Like I say, you don't have to ask anything if you don't want.

I like your post Mick and agreed with most of it, especially the "silliness" of chopping and changing at the back. But I honestly dont think this is the reason for our season becoming pairshaped. Infact this time around I'm ruiling "rotation" out of the problem, although Rafa's tinkering at the back recently shouldnt be overlooked.Never the less, and lets be honest here the team havent performed that great this season. Many of us could see this bliiiip coming with our previous performances being less than convincing.Rafa has pretty much until a last few games stuck with the best personel available for each match. He has given it a try and as an 'anti-rotationalist' I was/am pretty concerened with the lack of cohesion and above all else goal threat, and chances taken from a side that has at last been given a fair crack of the whip to build up momentum.The fall guy will always be Rafa if things spiral out of control, as he'll be the "genius" when such an achievement is made. All routes lead back to Rafa by that I mean .... We're asking ourselves why a settled term isnt producing the minerals', and that can be answered back by ' who brought the players that arent achieveing?'

Which is true but I think this group of players man for man even with Rafa's dodgey signings should be the likes of Stoke, Fulham and Hull, but there not ... Why is this ? Again the fault can easily lead back to Rafa with his attitude to football in that, 'to win, first you musnt conceed' and too much emphasis from Rafa is put on the resiliant side of our set-up rather than ... 'to win you need to outscore you're opposition'
way of thinking.Again Rafa's methods can be held accountable for our lack of fluency and attacking edge. But can they still be held fully accountable after he's given the team the opportunity to play a largely settled side, where understanding, cohesion and rythm have been given its chance ?If truth be told and we want to come to a balanced conclusion the fault lies with Rafa AND the players themselves.
Keane was given more than his fair share of chances as far as I am concerned and yet he wasnt able to produce too much in that time. And while I agree with dropping him or subbing him after hic brace against WBA was another perplexing move from Rafa, in the main he hasnt produced. Again Rafa brought him, Rafa paid silly money for him but Keane is a good player and was brought in the summer to either play alongside Torres or as a decent option to back-up. It was a gamble, especially with the fee involved and unfortunately for Rafa and Keane it hasnt paid off which is a big problem when Torres is out. As we merely become the exact same side of last season who were toothless and drew too many games during the season, there are similarities there with what happened then and whats happening now.If say Keane had got his career off to a flyer like Torres had, he wouldnt of been dropped or subbed half as much. He would of become that other pivitol player we need in order to kill the likes of Fulham, WH, Stoke and Hull are concerened but he hasnt. With those results, a lack of confidence edges into the teams thought, players become edgey and desperate and usually not much comes off when you havent got somebody banging in the goals.

[DAV]

We are top of the league coming up to christmas, which i haven't seen for years and years. So my am i so annoyed with RB the team, the performances, the tactics, just about everything and not forgetting the american owners.
We go round europe signing every youngster who can kick a ball, 99% will never be seen again. The Liverpool Youngsters also dont get a look in. On top of this we sign alot of very average first teamers. I dont know what our squad size, but our wage bill must be huge. We dont have a settled starting 11, its like a lottery who will be on the team sheet each week. Other than Kuyt,Riena,Gerrard,Carragher and for some reason Lucas plays a part most weeks. RB seems to use tactics to combat what hasn't yet happend, instead of letting the players go out and crush the opposition. Under GH and RB we buy what are suppose to be forwards and play them on the wings, Kuyt and Diouf come to mind. Gerrard on the left,right,behind the front 2, central midfield probably in goal at some point. Babbel i don't even know what position we bought him to play. Dossena, i'd never heard of him and watching him play i can see why.
Their are so many positive points for RB, such as Skirtel,Agger,Reina,Torres,Mascarano,Alonso, Keane (i thought was a great signing, but i know alot disagree)
Winning the champions league.
FA Cup.
The League this season is crazy, is RB the right man for the job? I'm not sure.
What i would say is, if this season is another top 4 finish, a semi final in a cup, then i think it would be time to re-evaluate the structure of the club. From top to bottom.

[roberto green]

Right, well I'll start by saying that I think its a good time to change.

I'll start with who can we possibly replace Benitez with who will be better than him.

There is no way especially in this financial climate at the moment that we can improve on him cos for a start if he was to get sacked or leave while we are in this shambolic position of top of the table and champions league group(sorry for the sarcasm)we would have to appoint someone else.
We would then have a new manager with new idea's
we would then have a manager with a new 5 year plan.
We would have then have a  manger who would have to replace Pepe Reina,Torres,Macharano and possibly a few others because all would probably follow and it wouldn't be easy replacing these players...................................

It is easy to point the blame at Benitez and he does wind me up and pisses me right off but i certainly don't see us improving if we lost him and i think we have currently got our best team since we last won the league and don't forget if any team had Torres out they would certainly been a lot weaker and maybe just maybe if he had been fit,the last 3 games we had drawn at home could of been won and we would of been 6-9 points clear by now.then this thread certainly wouldn't exist.

some fans are so fickle JUDGE AT THE END OF THE SEASON NOT HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON WITHOUT THE BEST STRIKER IN EUROPE WHILE WE ARE CURRENTLY TOP OF THE LEAGUE AND QUALIFIED FOR THE NEXT STAGE OF EUROPE!!!

[andy_g]

if we accept that benitez has to go then we probably have to accept the inevitable player exodus and another few seasons of transition.

[Sabre]

Contract Lenght: 2013.

Consequences of an early sack: 15M and having to make a new contract with someone else, not to mention that with a new manager some players may have doubts to stay.

So considering the first line of the post, I think it's pointless to expect he leaves anytime  soon. It was all right to discuss it recently or yesteryear, but right now? we'd better discuss football rathen than the continuity of Benitez. You always have the thread of depression if you're not too happy about the new contract.

[burjennio]

Rafael Benitez is not infallible, he makes mistakes just like everyone of us do in our chosen professions. This doesnt mean however that he should he be immune from criticism when he gets it wrong which I would think most of us are in agreement in has been the last few home games, with some bizzare team selections, substitiutions and tactical approaches. Playing Kuyt as a lone striker when he lacks the pace or strength to do so successfully. Playing Yossi Benayoun on the wing when he comes not only inside, but completely central at every given opportunity, destroying the balance of the side. 2 holding midfielders and 1 striker at home aginst a side playing 442 and trying to give us a game. Every one of this decisions could be described as anything from "cautious" to "f*cking moronic" My opinion would fall somewhere closer to the former. However, to suggest that Benitez wouldnt bring on Keane  JUST TO SHOW ANFIELD WHO'S THE BOSS is one of the stupidest comments i've ever heard, I would absolutely agree that there was an underlying reason Keane sat was left on the bench, perhaps he has had a barney with Rafa or more probably after watching his actions on Tuesday night one of the other players, such as Babel or N'Gog (didnt anyone else think it odd that even when he played N'Gog through for the 3rd goal not one Liverpool player went over to celebrate with him?) Babel to me should have been given more than 10 mins, Lucas, while nowhere near as "awful" as some of you lot make out is not the attacking sustitution required when youre chasing a winner in the dying minutes.

Does this mean he should be replaced? Only someone who has already made up his mind on the manager and refuses to budge on his opinion would start a thread of this nature when the side, regardless of recent performances, is in its strongest position to win the title in recent memory. There is no logic in changing the manager, regardless of your opinion he is regarding by those in the know as one of the top 5 coaches in world football. On the other hand I am starting to take the so called happy clappy mantra that "we're not playing well and are top of the league, wait until we hit form" to task now because after 5 months we're all still waiting for top gear. There has been some false dawns, notably after the derby and Man City games when the reds just didnt kick on and no question Torres absence has been a big blow, as has Gerrards niggling injuries and Carraghers new found clinical finishing ability but all in all there is definately more to be optimistic about than to have us all reaching for the razor blades. Hey, as of right now we're still top of the league

[maypaxvobiscum]

Rafa shouldnt be replaced now. if he needs replacing, its at the end of the season if he screws up. there are many things i dislike about him though and some points may have already been stated by other posters previously.

1) his emphasis on non-flair workers, or kuyt-type players.
2) rotation but recently its not that often though i dont understand why he played Insua then chose Doss for the next game
3) he seems to me the type of person who will play a player just to prove his decision in buying it was right
4) he keeps buying youngsters which are never used or just disappear into obscurity after awhile.
5) he is very very stubborn
6) his weird tactical decisions and subs. he is also very conservative and defensive. 2 defensive mids at HOME? seriously wtf?
7) he really really gives me the impression he has very poor man-management skills. Agger, Keane, Pennant.
8) his style of play is ugly i dont deny that but so long as it keeps getting the 3 points each game then why not.

[Madmax]

some say his a clown some say his a genius some say a fluke prone manager. i say his rafa the average gaffa

[Alex G.]

He is a genius tactically, but he should sign better. We all Knew in the summer that our problems the last season was the wings. And what he did? Sign a pair of disgraces like Dossena and Degen, an ok Riera, and finally Keane for 20 million pounds.

[Effes]

Getting rid of Rafa now would be madness.

But, just like we can dissect the team/players' performances, we can also question Rafa's
performances too.

People often bring up half-time in Istanbul - my view is this:
He picked the wrong team in the first place (Didi on the bench)
He was forced into the changes because of Finnan's injury.
Anyway - that was a long time ago.

Rafa seems to have his favourites and tries to be too "clever" rather than make the obvious decision.
Like yesterday - it was obvious the thing to do was to bring Keane on.
I would have loved it if Rafa made the change at half time - bringing Keane on and going 4-4-2.

[tubby]

I dont really see the point of people discussing this. He isnt going to get sacked when we are top of the league is he. Infact he is about to sign a new contract so I cant see him leaving any time soon.

[Espionage]

Top of the league and complaining... I guess it was to be expected. Personally I would be happy if Rafa stays here for another 10 years and that opinion wont change.

I'll take a page out of Stu's book here: "form is temporary, class is permanent"

Rafa is not going to forget how to run his team, he is only going to get better. Rafa is class, no matter what short-term form shows. If we replace him we will lose everything we have built, and a betting man would bet on Gerrard finishing his career without that premier league medal. Maybe the current strangle hold that the top 4 of the English league has on European football is because of the relative stability of the managers.

Just give it a rest