Liverpool FC Forum

[Liverpool_In_My_Blood]

Is Rafa Benitez the magician we think? And do his good points overshadow his bad points?

First off Istanbul. Playing an unfit Harry Kewell. Did Rafa know Harry would get injured and his replacement would score one of our 3 and a penalty or was it just good luck?

FA Cup Final 2006. Rafa, the genius, again plays an unfit player, this time Xabi Alonso. Xabi was never fit enough to play in the game and it was an unfit Xabi that led to the Hammer's first goal. But again Rafa brings on the replacement who changes the game for us and scores a penalty, so yet again his decision to play an unfit player pays off.

His signings:
Morientes-- a waste of time, space and 6 mill.
Nunez-- was never going to be the answer and we lost Michael Owen in the process.
Josemi-- never going to displace Finnan and didn't hack it as a centre half.
Pelligrino-- wasn't bought as a permanant player, just to give Sami the rest for Europe and that workd but when Pelligrino played he was useless.

So despite the FA Cup and European Cup, is Rafa Benitez the genius we think?

As far as I'm concerned, yes he is a genius for bringing us within 9 points of Chelsea, winning the FA and European cup and bringing Alonso, Sissoko and Reina to the club.

But I thought I would point out these to see if they made any of you think differently about Rafa and I want to hear your views on the points I have made above.

[Billy_5_Times]

Rafa has made mistakes but that only makes him human, doesn't disregard the fact that he his a genius. He shouldn't of started with Kewell in Istanbul, that's a mistake that makes him human, but he changed it when he had to and the change turned out to be brilliant, that makes him the genius.

The bit about Xabi Alonso against WHUFC, is . If you could play Alonso you would. One of best players and thats why he was picked.

The signings bit I agree. He has had a few bad buys, but his good buys are really good. The players Rafa has bought that have been a success would get into most top class sides.

So yes Rafa Benitez is a genius and it will be the genius Rafa Benitez that wins us the league this year.

[account deleted by request]

Rafa makes mistakes (everyone apart from my wife does ). Rafa however soon rectifies his mistakes either by astute substitutions or by tactical changes. His mistakes in the transfer market were also soon rectified,(all the players you mention have now left) because he doesnt let pride get in the way of doing whats right for Liverpool. To me that is an important difference between Rafa and Houllier. Remember also it was from Alonso's cross that Gerrard scored his first against West Ham.

[flipmode]

Rafa = Genius 

[Billy_5_Times]

Rafa makes mistakes (everyone apart from my wife does ). Rafa however soon rectifies his mistakes either by astute substitutions or by tactical changes. His mistakes in the transfer market were also soon rectified,(all the players you mention have now left) because he doesnt let pride get in the way of doing whats right for Liverpool. To me that is an important difference between Rafa and Houllier. Remember also it was from Alonso's cross that Gerrard scored his first against West Ham.

Accurate post. Rafa isn't affraid to hold his hands up and admit a mistake. GH was. GH wouldn't drop Dudek when he had that spell of poor games where as if you're not playing well Rafa wouldn't hesitate bringing you off.

[Sabre]

Is Rafa Benitez the magician we think? And do his good points overshadow his bad points?

Let's see

First off Istanbul. Playing an unfit Harry Kewell. Did Rafa know Harry would get injured and his replacement would score one of our 3 and a penalty or was it just good luck?

With injury or not he would have made changes for the second half. Without that 3 magical goals, he would have reached the final of CL in the first season, and that's something nobody was foreseeing when he started.

FA Cup Final 2006. Rafa, the genius, again plays an unfit player, this time Xabi Alonso. Xabi was never fit enough to play in the game and it was an unfit Xabi that led to the Hammer's first goal. But again Rafa brings on the replacement who changes the game for us and scores a penalty, so yet again his decision to play an unfit player pays off.

And where's the good part. I mean you're putting as an example of shadow a strike of bad luck that happens to every player from time to time (own goals, mistakes) to level the balance of the many good decissions that Rafa took?

His signings:
Morientes-- a waste of time, space and 6 mill.
Nunez-- was never going to be the answer and we lost Michael Owen in the process.
Josemi-- never going to displace Finnan and didn't hack it as a centre half.
Pelligrino-- wasn't bought as a permanant player, just to give Sami the rest for Europe and that workd but when Pelligrino played he was useless

Alonso on his own has increased his value to buy at least 5 Pennants. Sissoko was also a success. Reina keeps the debate of the goalpeeker dead. The good things are overwhelmingly heavier!


I don't understand what some people want.

[Bad Bob]

Is Rafa Benitez the magician we think? And do his good points overshadow his bad points?

First off Istanbul. Playing an unfit Harry Kewell. Did Rafa know Harry would get injured and his replacement would score one of our 3 and a penalty or was it just good luck?

FA Cup Final 2006. Rafa, the genius, again plays an unfit player, this time Xabi Alonso. Xabi was never fit enough to play in the game and it was an unfit Xabi that led to the Hammer's first goal. But again Rafa brings on the replacement who changes the game for us and scores a penalty, so yet again his decision to play an unfit player pays off.

His signings:
Morientes-- a waste of time, space and 6 mill.
Nunez-- was never going to be the answer and we lost Michael Owen in the process.
Josemi-- never going to displace Finnan and didn't hack it as a centre half.
Pelligrino-- wasn't bought as a permanant player, just to give Sami the rest for Europe and that workd but when Pelligrino played he was useless.

So despite the FA Cup and European Cup, is Rafa Benitez the genius we think?

As far as I'm concerned, yes he is a genius for bringing us within 9 points of Chelsea, winning the FA and European cup and bringing Alonso, Sissoko and Reina to the club.

But I thought I would point out these to see if they made any of you think differently about Rafa and I want to hear your views on the points I have made above.

Of course he's a genius and none of the examples you've raised suggest otherwise.

1) Sure he gambled on Kewell in Istanbul but, given our threadbare squad at the time and the fact that we needed some width on our left to give Cafu something to do besides bomb forward and whip in crosses, I understand what he was thinking.  As for the rest of what you said--foreseeing Kewell getting injured and then bringing on Smicer to notch two key goals?--he's a genius not Nostradamus...of course it was luck!

2) Playing a recovering Xabi in the FA Cup final is not a fault, IMO.  Look at the Juventus away leg in the CL the season before--Alonso had been out for months with that broken ankle, he came back into the team in a massive game and was immense for us.  After that, why wouldn't you play him in a big game, even if not 100%?

3) As for the transfers you've mentioned you act as though it were bloody obvious to all that these players would fail--yet hindsight is always 20/20.  Morientes didn't pan out but we were ALL made up when he signed for us.  You seem to imply that Rafa actually wanted Nunez and that Mickey Owen was somehow thrown in to the deal to make it happen, which is nuts!  He was more or less foisted on us as a make weight when Owen decided to seek pastures new.  Josemi was an experiment that failed and he was shipped out sharpish but Finnan had not been utterly convincing at right back his previous season and Rafa wanted to create some competition for the position, which is what good managers do.  Pellegrino was bought as cover and couldn't cut it in England but he was an understandable signing given his availability and his top drawer performances for Rafa at Valencia.  The key, though, with these transfers, as others have noted, is that Rafa acknowledges his mistakes and deals with them quickly.  No manager has perfect success in the transfer market but only the best managers have the bollox to hold their hand up, admit their mistakes and deal with them.

That, mate, is the sign of a genius! 

[Roger Red Hat]

rafa = genius
liverpool_in_my_blood = numpty

[stoney]

rafa = genius
liverpool_in_my_blood = numpty

I'd say thats about right

[JC_81]

Rafa is a genius for winning 2 la liga's with feck all money at Valencia despite what he's done here.

But even purely on his record for us so far I'd still say he's a genius.  Anyone who wins the CL with the squad we had at the time has to be a genius, despite any good fortune we may have had in certain rounds.  Then to close the gap on Chelsea so much between his first and second season is a miracle in itself.  If he goes one better this season and wins the premiership then it can be undisputed.

As for his transfer record, I think it's excellent.

Reina - 7mil - Undoubted success
Sissoko - 5mil - Undoubted success
Alonso - 10-14 mil - His value's probably doubled
Garcia - 6mil - How many crucial goals?
Fowler - free - Who wasn't happy with that?
Morientes - 6mil - Who wasn't happy with that at the time?  It just didnt work out and we probably recouped around 3 mil.
Nunez, Josemi - mistakes that were sold on sharpish at not a great loss
Pellegrino - Didn't perform the best, but his arrival turned around Sami's season.
Kromkamp - Rated at 3 mil, swapped for the hapless Josemi - good business as he's now a more valuable asset.
Carson - 2mil - Potential
Zenden - For free, why not?  The squad was thin at the time.
Crouch - 7mil - worth the money in hindsight imo

This summer's signings also look solid.  Pennant and Bellamy will be good value imo.  Gonzalez, Paletta and Aurelio were all very highly in other leagues and weren't expensive.

And he's shipped out players who weren't good enough.  Completely revamped the squad without spending huge amounts and crucially he didn't change it too quickly.  He got the best out of players like Traore and Biscan which our previous manager couldn't do.

On top of that think about things like:

Switching Carra to CB
Convincing Gerrard to stay
Clearly winning the mind games with Mourinho to the point where the Chelsea man feels the need to put us down at every opportunity (shows how much Benitez has got to him)
Revamping the youth set up to the point where the FA youth cup was won with in 2 seasons

All in all I think we can be happy with our manager's job so far

[Billy_5_Times]

Sure he gambled on Kewell in Istanbul but, given our threadbare squad at the time and the fact that we needed some width on our left to give Cafu something to do besides bomb forward and whip in crosses, I understand what he was thinking.

BadBob I think you will find Kewell played as a sceond striker. Riise was our left winger, therefore the one covering Cafu and even if it was Kewell's job to mark Cafu how on earth was he supposed to? Cafu a man who goes like the wind being marked by an unfit Kewell who goes like a slight breeze at best.

Rafa is a genius because he knows what our weakness is. 1st year he installed a solid back 4 because thats were great teams start at the back. Last year was improve on the keeper and get a solid midfield with the introduction of Momo. This year he has brought pace into the side because that is what we really lacked last year, he has also improved our forward line with Bellamy.

[Bad Bob]

Sure he gambled on Kewell in Istanbul but, given our threadbare squad at the time and the fact that we needed some width on our left to give Cafu something to do besides bomb forward and whip in crosses, I understand what he was thinking.

BadBob I think you will find Kewell played as a sceond striker. Riise was our left winger, therefore the one covering Cafu and even if it was Kewell's job to mark Cafu how on earth was he supposed to? Cafu a man who goes like the wind being marked by an unfit Kewell who goes like a slight breeze at best.

You know, kid,you're actually right about this one (had to happen sometime ).  Kewell was in 'the hole' that game, just behind Baros, with Riise on the left, Alonso and Gerrard in the middle and Garcia on the right.  I stand corrected.  Cafu was Riise's problem to deal with.  Kewell was supposed to support Baros by linking with the midfield.  Obviously Rafa felt we were a little toothless in attack with Baros alone up front.  Nothing really changed going forward, though, until we were forced into a 3-2-3-1-1 or whatever you'd want to call it in the second half due to Finnan's injury.  Now, if that gutsy formation, at 3-0 down in a CL final, isn't a sign that Rafa's a genius, I don't know what is! 

[Liverpool_In_My_Blood]

I started this topic asking if Rafa was a genius. I have never once believe he wasn't, I just wanted to hear your views on that and after hearing some of them I can proudly say I am right. Rafa Benitez is once a for all a genius, despite the odd hick up.

[Billy_5_Times]

You know, kid,you're actually right about this one (had to happen sometime ).  Kewell was in 'the hole' that game, just behind Baros, with Riise on the left, Alonso and Gerrard in the middle and Garcia on the right.  I stand corrected.  Cafu was Riise's problem to deal with.  Kewell was supposed to support Baros by linking with the midfield. 

I think I will print this post and frame it. Bad Bob saying I was right and HE was wrong.

See BadBob I'm not stupid. I just have different views on certain things.

[Lando_Griffin]

To ask the question, then only show the bad signings, rather than the gems he has unearthed shows you are a wind-up, L-I-M-B.