Liverpool FC Forum

[parchpea]

I get the impression that no matter what Benitez does he will be defended to the hilt.Its like a parent that never sees any wrong in their child, always someone elses fault, never take responsibilty. The fella is not a God or some football guru but merely a bloke paid to do a job like anyone else at the football club. The team is no further forward than when he took charge and you hit the point where you just run out of ideas and the players are tired of the same old routine. Its crying out for a fresh approach at the club, give these lads a new impetous and something different when they roll into work on a daily basis. Rafas had a good crack at it, and its been great on occasion, but its stale now and this is where it starts going backwards when you hit the wall. Lets move on and into a new era where we all get a new lease of life and start imagining what might be under a new regime.We may enjoy that rather than sitting here trying to figure out why its all gone wrong and somehow blaming everyone and everything but the man actually in charge of the football team.

[LFC2007]

I have said before that "focussed and single minded" could easily be replaced by "arrogant and stubborn".

Whatever his shortcomings may be as a manager I've never fully understood where the charge that he's an 'arrogant' man came from. I think he's quite the opposite.

Perhaps people confuse the stubbornness you can see in his footballing doctrine with his personality. Myself, I would explain that stubborness as a measure of the faith and patience he has in his methods - an extension of his professionalism if you like, and that you may well construe as a limitation - but I certainly wouldn't characterise it as a mark of an 'arrogant' man. I can't be the only to have noticed the deep disappointment in his eyes during the harder times in his career - a man so engrossed with himself wouldn't be prone to such expressions of emotion.

[bunglemark2]

I don't think N'gog had an easy challenge last night, playing the lone striker with no service at all, or when it did come to him, it was at chest height.

I wondered what on earth was going on and how much fault you can find when a third (at best) choice striker is thrown in at the deep end, but I guess it was G&H's fault Rafa signed him and G&H's fault Rafa played that formation and G&H's fault Rafa played N'Gog and G&H's fault N'gog was not taken off despite struggling.

I just hope for those praying we get a new set of owners that the finances change, and Rafa actually spends better than he currently does. Because who knows what excuses will come out if G&H go, Rafa stays, is given £100m a summer to spend and we still don't win the league.

Mate, if you read the context, I wasn't actually slating N'gog. I think he did fairly OK actually, given his age, and the role he was asked to play last night. Perhaps bottled it with that one clear chance in the 2nd half, stage-gright perhaps, but overall not too bad....

On the £100M thing: God knows what cack Rafa would buy if he had free run of the place 

[Sir Roger]

I have said before that "focussed and single minded" could easily be replaced by "arrogant and stubborn".

Whatever his shortcomings may be as a manager I've never fully understood where the charge that he's an 'arrogant' man came from. I think he's quite the opposite.

Perhaps people confuse the stubbornness you can see in his footballing doctrine with his personality. Myself, I would explain that stubborness as a measure of the faith and patience he has in his methods - an extension of his professionalism if you like, and that you may well construe as a limitation - but I certainly wouldn't characterise it as a mark of an 'arrogant' man. I can't be the only to have noticed the deep disappointment in his eyes during the harder times in his career - a man so engrossed with himself wouldn't be prone to such expressions of emotion.

I wasnt talking about my own opinion, although I do find him sometimes slightly arrogant in his refusal to admit hes got things wrong.
I am merely pointing out how he is perceived by others. His stubbornness, or inability to change, is one of the major factors regarding the situation we are in and can well be interpreted as being his own fault.

[Madmax]

Its a shame we let go of warnock aswel. His doing well with his club and tbh i would prefer him with us.

[devaney]

I'm talking here about from the end of last season until now only.

Now if we take the second place and four points behind/record points total/playing some of the best football we've played for years etc etc as not a flash in the pan or a fluke, we must also give the manager credit for taking us there over five years. There's no question that that team, playing in that way, was a long way removed from the team which he had when he took over. In that sense, it is easy to make the argument that there had been "progression", and for the purposes of this thread, lets just assume it as a given.

So how did we get from there to here? Is it just one of those things, just an unexplainable bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip that will right itself given time? Is it simply that we've been a bit unlucky, what with balloongate, a couple of injuries to key players, Aquilani not actually being "ready in a month" etc? Is it perhaps that Rafa wasn't given enough money to spend in the Summer? We know he spent 38 million quid or thereabouts but pulled in 33, is it not his fault and the reason that we aren't doing better is simply because he wasn't given more cash? Did he think he was getting more and then had the plug pulled (the "plughole theory"), is it "fecking Purslow " and actually his fault?

Did we over invest on Johnson even though he's top notch, and would we have been better off getting a different right back, Gareth Barry instead of Aquilani perhaps? Is our decline the result of a gradual disillusionment with rafa's "coldness", his lack of "the arm around the shoulder" approach gradually wearing thin with players? Are we paying the price for too many of the squad being not up to it, too many "option and possibility" buys?

Lots of questions there. I'll open it up with the "Lucasgate" theory. I think it was a very poor piece of judgement to take a view that Lucas/Masherano could hold the fort until the more creative midfielder was available. I'm not necessarily blaming Lucas (although he isn't good enough to be fair to the lad) I'm blaming Rafa for thinking he could hack it initially, then even worse solving the problem by moving Gerrard back and then continually revisiting it to prove it doesn't work.

Quite simply, given our personel we shouldn't have bought Aquilani unless we were prepared to play Gerrard in central midfield. It was excusable just about for a game or two, but not to stick with it.

Mick you have clearly given your post a lot of thought and it warrants a much more detailed answer than this! RAFA IS A STUBBORN TW.AT! Lucas and Babel - rest my case!

[Emerald Red]

We only have 2 top class outfield players in SG and Torres and SG came through the LFC system, so of the current squad Torres is the only exceptional player Rafa has bought.

The amount of money wasted is astonishing.

That's one of the biggest load of bollox posts I've ever read on here. 

[Reg]

We only have 2 top class outfield players in SG and Torres and SG came through the LFC system, so of the current squad Torres is the only exceptional player Rafa has bought.

The amount of money wasted is astonishing.

That's one of the biggest load of bollox posts I've ever read on here. 

'Freddie Starr Eat My Hamster'.   

[Fowler_E7]

he's a victim of circumstance. however, he has had a hand in creating those circumstances.

as many point out, our first choice starting eleven is mouthwatering; reina, johnson, carra, agger, aurelio, mascherano, aquilani, kuyt, reira, gerrard, torres. that team could - and probably should - beat anybody out there. the problem so far this season is that we haven't been able to play that team, or anything near it. benitez did the right thing in buying quality with aquilani and i think his calculated bet was about right that lucas and mascherano and gerrard would be able to hold the fort until the italian was ready. however, he wasn't to know that lucas just wouldn't step up, that mascherano would be day dreaming of barcelona instead of playing his game, that kuyt wouldn't be at the level he was at the end of last season, that agger would take longer to get back to fitness, and that reira, torres and gerrard would spend time early on out injured.

but then again, why over the last 5 years has he not built a squad capable of covering tough times? outside of that utterly delicious first 11 we have - apart from benayoun and possibly insua - dross backed up by dross with a bit of dross waiting in the wings. and drossena. in my opinion he has made a series of serious misjudgements with the purchase of squad players and a serious misjudgement espcecially with the lack of cover for torres. there is quite a few million quids worth of dross there as back up players so the 'he hasn't had money to spend' argument doesn't wash with me.

i know he has had trouble with the owners etc etc etc. but with the money he HAS been able to spend over the last 5 years we should have a much stronger squad and at least 2 decent strikers.

he also could have handled the alonso situation a lot better. its hard to tell if the summer he tried to flog him was a ploy to get his level back up again, or whether he really did want shut. if he wanted shut then he seriously misjudged alonso quality, despite him having had an average couple of seasons. if it was a ploy to get him to raise his game then it worked, but at too higher price - alienation of the player.


a victim of circumstances which are to a large degree of his own making.

Top post, Andy, and sums up my feelings nicely.  Rafa's had to deal with a lot of issues since G & H took over but he's also had to deal with a lot of problems of his own making.  In the past he's managed to pull the fat out of the fire in time but this particular bliiiiip has all the hallmarks of serious decline.  At some point you have to wonder how in the bl.oody hell we let so many players go that have been replaced by patently inferior knock-offs.  It's truly a sad state of affairs when you look wistfully at the likes of Bellamy, Riise and Cisse and wonder what if?  Sabre's said in another thread--and I concur--that this is the time to raise serious concerns about Rafa because 4 successive losses for a club of our stature is simply not acceptable, no matter what the circumstances.  I also take Southcoast Shankley's point (again from another thread) that things are starting to feel a lot like they did during the waning end of Houllier's tenure.  Dark days indeed.

agree completly, top posts by the pair of you. The squad is simply not good enought considering the amount of time and money that has been invested into it. Rafa has had it tough with the owners and they are still the main obsticle that needs removing to revive the club again HOWEVER Rafa Benitez has and is continuing to make huge mistakes with the buying and selling of players, the lack of quality in the squad is shocking, and should be far better than it is after 5 years of Benitez.

[JBG]

he's a victim of circumstance. however, he has had a hand in creating those circumstances.

as many point out, our first choice starting eleven is mouthwatering; reina, johnson, carra, agger, aurelio, mascherano, aquilani, kuyt, reira, gerrard, torres. that team could - and probably should - beat anybody out there. the problem so far this season is that we haven't been able to play that team, or anything near it. benitez did the right thing in buying quality with aquilani and i think his calculated bet was about right that lucas and mascherano and gerrard would be able to hold the fort until the italian was ready. however, he wasn't to know that lucas just wouldn't step up, that mascherano would be day dreaming of barcelona instead of playing his game, that kuyt wouldn't be at the level he was at the end of last season, that agger would take longer to get back to fitness, and that reira, torres and gerrard would spend time early on out injured.

but then again, why over the last 5 years has he not built a squad capable of covering tough times? outside of that utterly delicious first 11 we have - apart from benayoun and possibly insua - dross backed up by dross with a bit of dross waiting in the wings. and drossena. in my opinion he has made a series of serious misjudgements with the purchase of squad players and a serious misjudgement espcecially with the lack of cover for torres. there is quite a few million quids worth of dross there as back up players so the 'he hasn't had money to spend' argument doesn't wash with me.

i know he has had trouble with the owners etc etc etc. but with the money he HAS been able to spend over the last 5 years we should have a much stronger squad and at least 2 decent strikers.

he also could have handled the alonso situation a lot better. its hard to tell if the summer he tried to flog him was a ploy to get his level back up again, or whether he really did want shut. if he wanted shut then he seriously misjudged alonso quality, despite him having had an average couple of seasons. if it was a ploy to get him to raise his game then it worked, but at too higher price - alienation of the player.


a victim of circumstances which are to a large degree of his own making.

What he said.

[fivecups]

Yea, agree with the above.

[bigmick]

RAFA'S CONSPRIACY

is it possible that rafa is doin this on purpose. no one cud possibly want to hav the squad of players rafa has got. he's sold some of r best players, in alonso arbeloa, crouch. brought in players of league1 quality with voronin, ngog, lucas, spent silly money on players to just sell for half that in a few months.
cud he be doin this out of spite because the board tried to bring klinsmann in behind his back. rafa is runnin the club down financially, also in terms of quality and also because he signed a contract recently so will get a big payout if sacked.

Told ya   

This ones going to run and run, "Rafa is doing it on purpose innit". I said it was only a matter of time before this one came up .

[Madmax]

Rafa conspriracy... looool Good one made me laugh...

[Rush Job]

I would just like to see what Rafa could do without any off the field disturbances ,To buy without having to sell, Thats all. if that happens an he fails , then ill think about it lol

TBPH I think there are other managers under more stress in league that are doing better job IE... paul hart @ pompey.But in ideal world it would be great but I feel rafa will go before the owners do even tho I atm would like to see owners gone before rafa still by a margin.

Hart is under pressure alright mate but Im not sure how you can say he`s doing a better job?

I ment with resources he has had to rafa ? you think I am wrong ? prove it. 

Look at the league mate.

[maguskwt]

How strange the opinions on here change quickly... well it is strange and expected at the same time so that in itself is a strange phenomenon mostly capable by fans...

Why is it strange? Because we never heard these complaints last season. We never heard the complaints that alot of our players are 'league one material' that there are dross after dross after dross. That after 5 years Benitez didn't manage to build a team with good cover. Why didn't we hear that? Is it really that bad?

The only difference between last season's squad and this season's squad is Johnson for Arbeloa, Aquilani for Alonso. Most on here agree that Johnson for Arbeloa is an improvement. So, we have the only difference of Aquilani for Alonso. Aquilani hasn't had the chance to prove himself yet so we can't say that he's worse off than Alonso. But the problem is he has been injured. Now last season, we also had Gerrard, Torres, and Alonso injured for long spells one time or another. But alot of the time, if I remember correctly, we had one of them either Alonso to steady the boat, Gerrard to drive the team, or Torres to give a threat. On top of that Carragher was still as steady as a rock. His partnership with Skrtl last season if you look back is unrecogniseable from the current partnership. We rarely lost. We only lost 2 games all season.

Fast forward to this season. What went wrong when the only difference is Aquilani for Alonso? Carragher somehow lost his confidence and are making too many errors. As a result Skrtl is also making errors. Dirk Kuyt is Dirk Kuyt, but without Alonso, he has lost his offensive threat. Riera has somehow lost his 1st season form. And now Gerrard and Torres is out at the same time after playing for their national teams.

It is hard to argue that these are not unlucky circumstances that has really affected Rafa's game plans. But somehow our fans are able to argue this whether it makes sense or not. Our squad is only ONE player different from last season's squad, so why didnt all of the people who are shouting our squad is dross raise the alarm bell last season?

The truth as usual is somewhere in the middle. Our squad is not as strong as some make out to be (refer to comments like our squad is as strong as anybody and capable of winning the league). Or as weak as some are making out to be now. Last season we had our lucky breaks like it or not. How many games was it when we were losing and some dumb feck from the other team would come along and take out Alonso and receive a red card which enabled us to storm their defences and win from behind? How many games did we had when we were losing and either Gerrard or Torres would score a last minute equalizer. If you people who are criticizing the manager right now when he's down are so smart why didn't you warn last season, "Hold on a min... our squad is still dross, we are just being lucky". Instead comments were "Our squad can challenge for this and that"... "Lucas is a top top player he is still very young" etc etc etc.

And it is also our fans that criticized the manager 2-3 years ago " NO more quantity, go for quality". Maybe the manager heard this and did just that. After 1st two years of really buying squad fillers and starting from Torres, he had started buying quality players like Masch, Riera, Agger, Benayoun and also unfortunately gambled on Babel, Lucas and Dossena. Which manager doesn't make mistakes? Is this an excuse? No. Ferguson made plenty of these mistakes. The only difference is that with every mistake Benitez wasn't financially supported to undo the mistake. What's worse after making a mistake like Keane and sold him, he wasn't able to spend the money he had recouped. He continued the policy of buying quality with Johnson and Aquilani.

The truth is that last season Rafa had done very well to assemble a team and a squad to play like he wanted to. It has been decades that Liverpool played such attractive attacking football. But the squad was not what some made out to be "as good as any". The squad had quality players but lacking in cover. But how come we didn't hear today's criticisms? The squad was promising but needed a final touch. The final step is always the hardest and I must say the owners failed to support Rafa to make this final step. He was told to sell in order to buy, and sell Rafa did in order to try and keep the progress going on. We had an unhappy player in Alonso and we sold him for an amount fans only dreamed of. Rafa has bought Keane for 20 million and sold him for 14 million because clearly the player was not working out. Surely he should have been able to spend that 14 million on a replacement? Never materialised. On top of that Rafa was promised 20 million in transfer kitty and together with that 14 million and the sale of 30 million he should have had 64 million to spend. Add to that sales of other players like Leto, Arbeloa, etc and he should nearly have 70 million to spend. So he went out to spend 17 million for Johnson. Quality for Quantity and everyone agreed it was in improvent. And then we were linked with all sorts of players like Silva, Villa, Upson, Tevez, Barry, etc etc. But now by then Rafa realised that he may not have much to spend after all. It's very strange isn't it? You are supposed to have the money recouped from sale of players and the transfer kitty in total of 70 million. So then he decided he would have to replace Alonso with someone who can potentially be a star but has great value, and that someone is Aquilani, the best young and most promising midfielder available, an Italian international, and someone who had made differences for his previous club  Roma, albeit injured. And even though he would cost 20 million with add ons, he would only cost around 5 million at the moment. Did Rafa choose this gamble of a deal because he really was told not to spend anymore and chooses to pay the rest of Aquilani's with his future transfer kitty? Didn't Rafa say Aquilani is "not for 5 weeks but for 5 years?". It is possible and we will not really know but the acquisition of Aquilani already shows Rafa's desperation. It was the next best thing to do if you don't have money, to buy a promising young Italian International with little money upfront, instead of buying another squad filler. Again Quality over Quantity, only thing he had to deal with a player who was still coming back from injury. So 17million + 20 million + 1 million for the greek which is around 38 million. Where is the rest, 32 million of 70 million that Rafa should have had in the beginning of the season to replace the lost of players like Alonso and to find a good back-up for Torres and replace Keane? With that 32 million, Rafa could have bought 2 decent players (someone like Huntelaar or Van der Vaart and another decent centre back) which could have make alot of difference in the current situation we are in.

So yes, Rafa IS a victim of circumstances brought about mainly by the lack of financial support by our owners. All rafa needed was to spend the full amount of money he recouped and a very sensible transfer kitty of 20 million to build upon the success of last season and to truely build a title challenging squad. I'm not saying Rafa didn't do mistakes. He did make mistakes in buying Babel, Lucas, Dossena and Keane. But he is probably the only manager of a top team who had to pay for these mistakes in the way he has to now.



PS This was something I wanted to post first in the thread/poll I opened "The Squad: Not good enough without Gerrard and Torres, Who's fault is it?" but then the mods killed it...