Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Lots of questions there. I'll open it up with the "Lucasgate" theory. I think it was a very poor piece of judgement to take a view that Lucas/Masherano could hold the fort until the more creative midfielder was available. I'm not necessarily blaming Lucas (although he isn't good enough to be fair to the lad) I'm blaming Rafa for thinking he could hack it initially, then even worse solving the problem by moving Gerrard back and then continually revisiting it to prove it doesn't work.

Quite simply, given our personel we shouldn't have bought Aquilani unless we were prepared to play Gerrard in central midfield. It was excusable just about for a game or two, but not to stick with it.

I'm a little surprised by this. I seem to recall a time in pre-season when you advocated Lucas playing alongside Masch in midfield at the start of the season. Indeed, IIRC, you even argued for his inclusion alongside Masch after the Spurs and Stoke games and before the Villa game.

Commence the criticism from a later date by all means.

Well I've made many posts on the subject mate and no doubt if you chop one of them up you'll find a spot where I advocated giving Lucas a go in a game. It may well have been against Chelsea as playing two sitters there would be OK.

Before the season started though I was very firmly in favour of playing Gerrard in central midfield "once we've worked out that Lucas isn't up to it" is the phrase I think I used, so no with all due respect I think this time I can't be accused of swerving it.

The essential problem as I've said a few times is that when Lucas and Masherano play together, the distribution of the football from central midfield isn't done with the necessary quality.

[Dazzer]

Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Hardly. You take 5 or 6 of your best players out of ANY team in the country, and suddenly you'll look a little ragged. Were we playing a Coca-Cola Championship side tonight? No. We were playing a well organised Lyon outfit in the top tier in Europe, and let's be honest, Gerrard and Torres have hardly been on top form this season either, even if Torres has scored a fair amount in the league, he's still been below his best.

Emerald, your optimism is truly astonishing. But for the life of me, I can't see a single ray of hope at the moment.
We are cack at the back, lifeless and have no inspiration in midfield, and toothless in front of goal except when we play a no-hope team.....
We have a pathetic bench to choose from, players that nobody else wants to sign, and a manager who talks utter tripe like there's no tomorrow....
I am a fan of this club for as long as I can remember but this is just a shade too far. It's embarrassing.

I'm not denying it. We're atrocious all over the pitch. We can't seem to get anything cohesive going at all. But I refuse to believe that whenever our first choice is available and confidence is good, that we are anything other than a very, very good side capable of competing for anything. We all knew our squad was thin last year. We all knew where and what needed to be done in the transfer market in the summer. Did Rafa f*ck it up in the Summer, or was he hindered by lack of funds in order to fill the positions we needed. From what I've read, he wanted Villa and certainly went for Silva. The funds just weren't there. Now either Rafa was lying or the Yanks lied to him. I recall a statement made by Rafa in the press that he could afford at least another big money signing to come after he signed Johnson for 18 million. Where was it?

Thing is, I'm optimistic because things can seriously only get better rather than worse. They have to. It's the only way this football club can survive. Those that boo'd inside Anfield tonight over a sub should all f*cking hang their heads in shame.

Things can get worse alot worse just because you don't think we can finish out of top 4 don't mean rest of us are so cocksure we won't at this rate we be lucky to finish top half of table another lose on sunday and that game vs fulham looks like a real nasty game.

[Emerald Red]

Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Hardly. You take 5 or 6 of your best players out of ANY team in the country, and suddenly you'll look a little ragged. Were we playing a Coca-Cola Championship side tonight? No. We were playing a well organised Lyon outfit in the top tier in Europe, and let's be honest, Gerrard and Torres have hardly been on top form this season either, even if Torres has scored a fair amount in the league, he's still been below his best.

Like I've said in the past few days, we have a excellent first 11, but the difference between us and the rest is that Chelsea, United and even City can afford to spend 20 million plus on their fringe players. We can't.

how much are you getting paid to chat this bollox ?


Like I've said in the past few days, we have a excellent first 11, but the difference between us and the rest is that Chelsea, United and even City can afford to spend 20 million plus on their fringe players. We can't.



I think you find we had enough over the last 5 years to build a team but Rafa fu.cked it up so no you are wrong.

Plus I doubt every fringe player at chelsea and man U don't cost 20 mil those are numbers you just made up in your mind to support you dumbfounded claim.

Seriously, you're a plum if you think we don't have as good a first 11 as anyone else in the country. Last season's league table didn't lie. There is only 1 of our current fringe players that cost over 10 million pounds. Answers on a postcard for guessing who. Now, dive into Chelsea's and City's squad, and they probably add up to costing more than what we've spent in the past 5 or 6 years.

[bunglemark2]

Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Hardly. You take 5 or 6 of your best players out of ANY team in the country, and suddenly you'll look a little ragged. Were we playing a Coca-Cola Championship side tonight? No. We were playing a well organised Lyon outfit in the top tier in Europe, and let's be honest, Gerrard and Torres have hardly been on top form this season either, even if Torres has scored a fair amount in the league, he's still been below his best.

Emerald, your optimism is truly astonishing. But for the life of me, I can't see a single ray of hope at the moment.
We are cack at the back, lifeless and have no inspiration in midfield, and toothless in front of goal except when we play a no-hope team.....
We have a pathetic bench to choose from, players that nobody else wants to sign, and a manager who talks utter tripe like there's no tomorrow....
I am a fan of this club for as long as I can remember but this is just a shade too far. It's embarrassing.

I'm not denying it. We're atrocious all over the pitch. We can't seem to get anything cohesive going at all. But I refuse to believe that whenever our first choice is available and confidence is good, that we are anything other than a very, very good side capable of competing for anything. We all knew our squad was thin last year. We all knew where and what needed to be done in the transfer market in the summer. Did Rafa f*ck it up in the Summer, or was he hindered by lack of funds in order to fill the positions we needed. From what I've read, he wanted Villa and certainly went for Silva. The funds just weren't there. Now either Rafa was lying or the Yanks lied to him. I recall a statement made by Rafa in the press that he could afford at least another big money signing to come after he signed Johnson for 18 million. Where was it?

Thing is, I'm optimistic because things can seriously only get better rather than worse. They have to. It's the only way this football club can survive. Those that boo'd inside Anfield tonight over a sub should all f*cking hang their heads in shame.

Mate, Rafa DID phuck it up in the summer in my opinion. Aquilani - or better - the GAMBLE on Aquilani knowing he wouldn't kick a ball in anger for months is naievete on his part; Alonso was going anyway so to not line up a replacement on Day 1 is an absolute sham. I don't recall if we ever had a firm offer for Voronin or not, but if we didn't, the very fact that he is in the squad ahead of whar's-his-face out in AEK Athens is a sham; the constant backing of Lucas is a sham; the handling of Keane, Crouch, Bellamy is a sham; the whinings to the press is a sham.....
And I DO think things will get better. Sunderland knew exactly how to inflict damage at the weekend; Lyon did tonight; Manure will at the weekend. And Benitez has absolutely NO strategy to counter it. None. Nothing.

[Dazzer]

Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Hardly. You take 5 or 6 of your best players out of ANY team in the country, and suddenly you'll look a little ragged. Were we playing a Coca-Cola Championship side tonight? No. We were playing a well organised Lyon outfit in the top tier in Europe, and let's be honest, Gerrard and Torres have hardly been on top form this season either, even if Torres has scored a fair amount in the league, he's still been below his best.

Like I've said in the past few days, we have a excellent first 11, but the difference between us and the rest is that Chelsea, United and even City can afford to spend 20 million plus on their fringe players. We can't.

how much are you getting paid to chat this bollox ?


Like I've said in the past few days, we have a excellent first 11, but the difference between us and the rest is that Chelsea, United and even City can afford to spend 20 million plus on their fringe players. We can't.



I think you find we had enough over the last 5 years to build a team but Rafa fu.cked it up so no you are wrong.

Plus I doubt every fringe player at chelsea and man U don't cost 20 mil those are numbers you just made up in your mind to support you dumbfounded claim.

Seriously, you're a plum if you think we don't have as good a first 11 as anyone else in the country. Last season's league table didn't lie. There is only 1 of our current fringe players that cost over 10 million pounds. Answers on a postcard for guessing who. Now, dive into Chelsea's and City's squad, and they probably add up to costing more than what we've spent in the past 5 or 6 years.

We don't have Alonso so for me our first 11 is lacking from last season.

Seriously, you're a plum if you think we don't have as good a first 11 as anyone else in the country.

Yeah ok I give you we have better first 11 then westham then.   

[Rush Job]

Im not sure on your point about Lucas TBH mate, any time we have called on him in the past he has done his job and if you were to look back on some of the games he`s played for us before this season and he has always done his job. We are talking about wins against most of the top sides in europe including that 4-1 against the mancs.
While Lucas is never going to be a top player for us I cant help but think it is to easy to blame him or blame the gaffa for not knowing he wasnt going to give us the level of performance he already had up to that point.
I saw an interveiw with Guardiola a couple of days ago and he was saying if a player doesnt play well he looks at it as there must have been a problem with the team, was he being covered when needed, was he receiveing the ball at the right times,were players showing for it at the right times etc.
I think lucas is being showed up some what by the lack of form of more senior players, it cant be easy when your CM partner looks in pain every time he has to put the shirt on, the defence behind you is all over the place and there is zero movement in front of you.
What do we really expect from the lad when the whole team is out of form?
When ever he has been called on in the past, in the biggest games too he has done his job and more often then not been part of a winning team, whats changed?

[Penguins]

It is also a case of many other teams have gotten stronger.

We have stood still, maybe even gone backwards since last season(no alonso replacement, Carra is poor etc) while other teams like Villa, Spurs, City etc have taken huge strides this summer.

If you stand still and don't improve you get behind. 33 % have to  fall on the lack of funds.

The other 33 % has a lot to do with belief. You could see players (Reina for example)  go out and comment on the lack of funding and reinforment in the team and that it was bad.
If players who can see that they are on the verge of something not get rewarded by improvement in the squad it is going to have a negative effect.

The last 3rd has to go to Rafa. He has always been a lover of craft and not so much skill. This often means his teams have always been well organised and good defensivly but he lacks
both offensivly skilled players and a plan for attacking opposing teams. They go hand in hand.  I will go on and on about Kuyt but he is Rafa's dream type of players. He can't get past a man, has no pace and he is supposed to provide the goals. But if you want to be a team the dominate other teams playing wise you need skill, creativity and attacking prowness.

Rafa's teams always seem to develop away from that because
of his philosophy. Just like Wenger in some ways never train the defensive aspects of the game, Rafa doesn't/or has a hard to training the players offensivly when they lack the skill.

[Dazzer]

Im not sure on your point about Lucas TBH mate, any time we have called on him in the past he has done his job and if you were to look back on some of the games he`s played for us before this season and he has always done his job. We are talking about wins against most of the top sides in europe including that 4-1 against the mancs.
While Lucas is never going to be a top player for us I cant help but think it is to easy to blame him or blame the gaffa for not knowing he wasnt going to give us the level of performance he already had up to that point.
I saw an interveiw with Guardiola a couple of days ago and he was saying if a player doesnt play well he looks at it as there must have been a problem with the team, was he being covered when needed, was he receiveing the ball at the right times,were players showing for it at the right times etc.
I think lucas is being showed up some what by the lack of form of more senior players, it cant be easy when your CM partner looks in pain every time he has to put the shirt on, the defence behind you is all over the place and there is zero movement in front of you.
What do we really expect from the lad when the whole team is out of form?
When ever he has been called on in the past, in the biggest games too he has done his job and more often then not been part of a winning team, whats changed?

I think rush he means like lucus no matter if he does a job in midfield is no Alonso with the control of passing to open a team up.I also think he isn't lucus bashing he understands he can only do as good as he can do its more Rafa should have replaced Alonso and he hasn't done that.

[LFC2007]

Lots of questions there. I'll open it up with the "Lucasgate" theory. I think it was a very poor piece of judgement to take a view that Lucas/Masherano could hold the fort until the more creative midfielder was available. I'm not necessarily blaming Lucas (although he isn't good enough to be fair to the lad) I'm blaming Rafa for thinking he could hack it initially, then even worse solving the problem by moving Gerrard back and then continually revisiting it to prove it doesn't work.

Quite simply, given our personel we shouldn't have bought Aquilani unless we were prepared to play Gerrard in central midfield. It was excusable just about for a game or two, but not to stick with it.

I'm a little surprised by this. I seem to recall a time in pre-season when you advocated Lucas playing alongside Masch in midfield at the start of the season. Indeed, IIRC, you even argued for his inclusion alongside Masch after the Spurs and Stoke games and before the Villa game.

Commence the criticism from a later date by all means.

Well I've made many posts on the subject mate and no doubt if you chop one of them up you'll find a spot where I advocated giving Lucas a go in a game. It may well have been against Chelsea as playing two sitters there would be OK.

Before the season started though I was very firmly in favour of playing Gerrard in central midfield "once we've worked out that Lucas isn't up to it" is the phrase I think I used, so no with all due respect I think this time I can't be accused of swerving it.

The essential problem as I've said a few times is that when Lucas and Masherano play together, the distribution of the football from central midfield isn't done with the necessary quality.

No chopping up on my part. It just seems a little unfair/inconsistent to argue that it was obvious from the start that a Lucas/Masch partnership was never going to work, given that you yourself took at least three games to 'work it out'.

[Emerald Red]

Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Hardly. You take 5 or 6 of your best players out of ANY team in the country, and suddenly you'll look a little ragged. Were we playing a Coca-Cola Championship side tonight? No. We were playing a well organised Lyon outfit in the top tier in Europe, and let's be honest, Gerrard and Torres have hardly been on top form this season either, even if Torres has scored a fair amount in the league, he's still been below his best.

Emerald, your optimism is truly astonishing. But for the life of me, I can't see a single ray of hope at the moment.
We are cack at the back, lifeless and have no inspiration in midfield, and toothless in front of goal except when we play a no-hope team.....
We have a pathetic bench to choose from, players that nobody else wants to sign, and a manager who talks utter tripe like there's no tomorrow....
I am a fan of this club for as long as I can remember but this is just a shade too far. It's embarrassing.

I'm not denying it. We're atrocious all over the pitch. We can't seem to get anything cohesive going at all. But I refuse to believe that whenever our first choice is available and confidence is good, that we are anything other than a very, very good side capable of competing for anything. We all knew our squad was thin last year. We all knew where and what needed to be done in the transfer market in the summer. Did Rafa f*ck it up in the Summer, or was he hindered by lack of funds in order to fill the positions we needed. From what I've read, he wanted Villa and certainly went for Silva. The funds just weren't there. Now either Rafa was lying or the Yanks lied to him. I recall a statement made by Rafa in the press that he could afford at least another big money signing to come after he signed Johnson for 18 million. Where was it?

Thing is, I'm optimistic because things can seriously only get better rather than worse. They have to. It's the only way this football club can survive. Those that boo'd inside Anfield tonight over a sub should all f*cking hang their heads in shame.

Things can get worse alot worse just because you don't think we can finish out of top 4 don't mean rest of us are so cocksure we won't at this rate we be lucky to finish top half of table another lose on sunday and that game vs fulham looks like a real nasty game.

I'll reiterate: we've 5 of our first 11 injured, or recovering from injury. We've only just got Masherano and Agger back fully fit. Here, have a look at this team.
             
                    Riena

Johnson   Carragher Agger     Aurelio


            Masherano
                          Aquilani


Kuyt                                   Riera

                 Gerrard

                  Torres

Not a bad team, no? Compare this to the team in the last sevaral games.

[bigmick]

I didn't mate. I talked of playing Lucas there until we worked out he wasn't up to it, then moving Gerrard back before a ball was kicked. There is also part of me (despite the fact I did say that) which is bound to say it's not my job to spot the obvious, it's Rafa's. It's fairly obvious now alright, so a top manager might have been expected to have worked it out before proving it over half a dozen games, no?

[big al]

i think theres a lot of unfair comments about lucas

[lakes10]

Hey on a beter note............Kelly looks a great player

[big al]

the lad played very well

[Dazzer]

i think theres a lot of unfair comments about lucas

I agree I like him he just needs few more years in this league before he works it out,  he has good grounding tho to be a good player in this league.I really think he is played to deep and if he was given a more attacking premise we might see more from him.