Liverpool FC Forum

[heimdall]

Leeds had a perfectly good goal disallowed and in reality Liverpool could have been a couple down at half time.

It might be worth noting that that 'perfectly good goal' came about as a result of Ngog lingering too long on the post from a corner and playing one if not both Leeds strikers onside.  Still curious why we tend not to leave players on the post for corners (something you seemed quite certain we should be doing in an earlier post)?

So it was Wash's fault that they scored, well at least he made amends.

I didn't see the game but by all accounts we were , it is clear to me that we have a team not a squad, if you guys are happy with that then good for you, personally I think its bloody awful and makes winning the league next to impossible and the poor squad I blame entirely on Rafa, he's had enough money to build a squad in fact I thought that was why he keeps buying bulk instead of quality.

also what the feck is up with our defence at the moment? We were shocking against West Ham and by all accounts Leeds were running us ragged as well. It's just not bloody good enough but at the moment we are getting away with it, I just hope Rafa's luck keeps.

[GYBS]

[DrPepe]

Leeds had a perfectly good goal disallowed and in reality Liverpool could have been a couple down at half time.

It might be worth noting that that 'perfectly good goal' came about as a result of Ngog lingering too long on the post from a corner and playing one if not both Leeds strikers onside.  Still curious why we tend not to leave players on the post for corners (something you seemed quite certain we should be doing in an earlier post)?

So it was Wash's fault that they scored, well at least he made amends.

I didn't see the game but by all accounts we were , it is clear to me that we have a team not a squad, if you guys are happy with that then good for you, personally I think its bloody awful and makes winning the league next to impossible and the poor squad I blame entirely on Rafa, he's had enough money to build a squad in fact I thought that was why he keeps buying bulk instead of quality.

also what the feck is up with our defence at the moment? We were shocking against West Ham and by all accounts Leeds were running us ragged as well. It's just not bloody good enough but at the moment we are getting away with it, I just hope Rafa's luck keeps.

thank feck we didn;t lose the fixture eh?

i thnk some people had pre-prepared moans and arguments for last night in the event that we lost, and they thought they were so good that it'd be a waste not to post their brilliant wit on the board... 

how "run ragged" was a defense that didn't actually concede?

They were worked v hard by Leeds (as expected - a second or third string defense, with a ressie CM, against an in-form team, away from home)

sounds like job done to me, and we were fairly comfortable (apart from a few close shaves  that will happen in every match)

[GYBS]

The game certainly wasnt as bad as been stated - it was a hard game - were werent outstanding nor where we sh.it . our midfield was a bit lacking but there were certainly positives to be taken from the game . Namely babel,ngog , aurelio back playing and in some respects degen .

[bigmick]

Back onto the subject of the thread briefly, after 300 games of Rafa being in charge how do people think the squad reflects upon the job he's done? N'Gog for instance appears to be our first choice replacement for Torres. Is there another team in the higher echelons where he would be ranked so highly? There are numerous other areas of the squad which IMHo if five years ago someone had said to you "this is where it'll be" you'd have laughed at them.

[Owzat]

I'd say Kuyt was our first choice replacement for Torres, Voronin has done nothing that special on his return but still I'm surprised he is overlooked as much as he is, but is N'Gog really that high in our pecking order?

I think focus is on the "weakness" of our squad, but take Drog and Le Sulk out of Chelsea's starting XI, Roonaldo out of the mancs or Lord Percy out of the goners' side and they'd look short. Bubblewrap and Edward Da Diva are about the only quality strikers outside of those, the clubs do have others but not that big a deal that some smaller clubs don't have a better striker

[taff]

After 300 games I dont think we should rate him with the argument that Ngog is on the bench.

Ok we seem to have a set system that generally works and it is base around Gerrard and Torres who are absolutely world class so it seems sensible to base it around them.  Backup is a problem but an understandable one as nobody in world football would shift those two, where we are weak IMO is a Ronaldo or Messi type player on the flanks.  But the team is generally strong without being flash or silky but I would like to be a little bit more flash.

Before Alonso went we had an excellent spine and still do although losing Alonso has weakened it.

I personally think he hasnt handled the British media well and doesnt quite grasp the idiosyncracies of this nation but am pleased he has stood up for himself even though sometimes I do think WTF

I am split about player management as he has managed to get key players on new contracts so they must believe in him although It would be foolish to think that he is generally loved but I do take the opinion WHO CARES about this its all about getting a squad to compete for the league and I think he has gradually done this although those pesky other clubs have refused to remain static since he joined so it looks like we have always been playing catch up even though we have done a lot of catching up.

The rumours I have heard is he is dictatorial which is good if we win as he is strong but it blows up in his face if we dont do so well, but this is the path he chose so he has to stand by his decisions.

The off field stuff from when he joined has just got ridiculously worse, we have to remember that Gerrads first words to him were you dont know how bad it is.  And I think he has handled it quite well although he does show his frustrations although if the same rumours source about broken promises, interference etc are true then I am impressed that he has stayed as he has no history with Liverpool and is a respected sought after manager, so he has developed a genuine love for the club.

Overall I think he has spent well but with a few boobs as well but overall the balance is in his favour IMO.

We are at this moment in time even with the ludicrous hysterice about the league being over in August genuine contenders and absolutely feared in Europe which compared to Houlliers last season is a huge improvement. 

I am however frustrated that we have been trophyless since 2006 and this is how he will and should be judged and while I despise the negative almost knee jerk reactions it is simply time for him to deliver but I also genuinely sympathise that with every step we take forward there seems to be stumblings as in money for interest rate payments when we could have done with a spending spree and the emergence of Man City outbidding us etc.  Its frustrating as we need to cement ourselves for a title challenge but it always seems difficult to get a strong foothold for various reasons.

All in all I would say good solid job with progress but its time to step up a bit

[Bad Bob]

I didn't see the game but by all accounts we were , it is clear to me that we have a team not a squad, if you guys are happy with that then good for you, personally I think its bloody awful and makes winning the league next to impossible and the poor squad I blame entirely on Rafa, he's had enough money to build a squad in fact I thought that was why he keeps buying bulk instead of quality.

Absolutely nothing funnier than "I didn't watch the game but" as a lead in to yet another Raf-bash sesh.  I'm glad this forum has reached such heights of absurdity that we don't even have to watch matches any more to draw firm conclusions about the lads, the manager, our prospects etc.  No wonder no one discusses the finer points of the game on here anymore...no one seems to actually watch them. 

[RedBlood]

i think hes doing a very good job if the team we have now played the one he inherited wed play them off the park no doubt, people on here seem to forget what hes up against in this league and in europe
weve finnsihed 3rd 3rd and 2nd in our last 3 seasons in arguable the hardest league in the world competing with teams that have far better resources then we done and our record in the champs league isnt exactly shabby is it

i think we need to back him because hes a great manager (not perfect, who is?) and well win some silverwere this year im sure of it

[GYBS]

I didn't see the game but by all accounts we were , it is clear to me that we have a team not a squad, if you guys are happy with that then good for you, personally I think its bloody awful and makes winning the league next to impossible and the poor squad I blame entirely on Rafa, he's had enough money to build a squad in fact I thought that was why he keeps buying bulk instead of quality.

Absolutely nothing funnier than "I didn't watch the game but" as a lead in to yet another Raf-bash sesh.  I'm glad this forum has reached such heights of absurdity that we don't even have to watch matches any more to draw firm conclusions about the lads, the manager, our prospects etc.  No wonder no one discusses the finer points of the game on here anymore...no one seems to actually watch them. 

spot on bob -

[Sabre]

That was a balanced and good post Taff. I read that you heard rumours about Rafa being dictatorial, could you tell me more about that? Meaning, dictatorial as in...

[account deleted by request]

Red Watch: Mystery of the ditched rotation policy at Liverpool FC


Sep 24 2009 by Andy Proudfoot, Liverpool Daily Post
Comment (1)Recommend IT WAS late Saturday night, and the two guys at the bar, who had enjoyed more than one or two scoops to celebrate Fernando Torres’s return to form, were creating their own version of a famous Two Ronnies sketch.

“Whatever happened to...” said one. “Baby Jane?” replied the other.

“No, no, whatever happened to...” the first bloke tried again, this time to be met by “the Likely Lads?”

“No, no”, he persisted,” whatever happened to”...”The Heroes?” came a last desperate reply.

“No, no” the first guy cried in exasperation, “Rotation! Rotation! Whatever happened to rotation?”

A fair question indeed. Just when exactly did Rafa Benitez metamorphose into Bill Shankly?

“Same as last season”, Shankly used to reply when asked to name his team for any particular game.

Before Tuesday night’s match, just 15 players had started for Rafa in the seven competitive games to date, and three of those had played just one game each, meaning that just 12 have borne the burden of these early season fixtures (I knew that Maths ‘O’ Level would show its worth one day).

This compares to 17 in the same period last season; and 19 and 17 in the first seven league games of the two previous seasons. So has Rafa had an epiphany, the ghost of Mark Lawrenson’s moustache appearing to him in chains, moaning “you should always play your best side”?

Or are there other dark forces at work, such as those that bend time at Old Trafford, so that otherwise fastidious referees become befuddled when looking at their own watches?

The answer, I suspect, is that he has been blown off course by, as Harold MacMillan put it, “events, dear boy, events”.

The loss of Alonso and the injuries to Aurelio, Aquilani and Agger (watch out Babel and Benayoun) have reduced the numbers at his disposal certainly, shrinking the pool of talent available.

This pool is of course shrunk even further by the evaporation known as Voronin, Degen and Dossena, whose status as fringe players must surely owe more to their haircuts than any aspiration to first team standing.

But the real reason why Rafa has chosen to ignore one of his most devout canons, the rotation of players to preserve their energy for later in the season, is the seismic ramifications of those two early defeats, immediately plunging us six points adrift of the Chelsea arrivistes.

For despite the obvious clichés of it being a long season, plenty of points to play for etc., any further deficit incurred before we travel to Stamford Bridge a week on Sunday would put us at risk of being 10-12 points behind should our dire record at the Home of No History prior to last season return to haunt us.

Putting on a brave face in this situation would require the combined acting skills of John Gielgud and Ralph Richardson, aided by the entire staff of the BBC Make-up Department.

So while there may appear to be plenty of time available for us to claw our way back to the top, the reality is that Rafa has been unable to take the risks inherent in rotation, and has sensibly opted to delay any radical changes until the situation improves.

Our aim now must surely be to stay in contention until Christmas at the earliest, and reappraise the position then.

Anything less and it might not be just Goodnight from him, but quite possibly Goodnight from him.
LINK

[Bad Bob]

Red Watch: Mystery of the ditched rotation policy at Liverpool FC


Sep 24 2009 by Andy Proudfoot, Liverpool Daily Post
Comment (1)Recommend IT WAS late Saturday night, and the two guys at the bar, who had enjoyed more than one or two scoops to celebrate Fernando Torres’s return to form, were creating their own version of a famous Two Ronnies sketch.

“Whatever happened to...” said one. “Baby Jane?” replied the other.

“No, no, whatever happened to...” the first bloke tried again, this time to be met by “the Likely Lads?”

“No, no”, he persisted,” whatever happened to”...”The Heroes?” came a last desperate reply.

“No, no” the first guy cried in exasperation, “Rotation! Rotation! Whatever happened to rotation?”

A fair question indeed. Just when exactly did Rafa Benitez metamorphose into Bill Shankly?

“Same as last season”, Shankly used to reply when asked to name his team for any particular game.

Before Tuesday night’s match, just 15 players had started for Rafa in the seven competitive games to date, and three of those had played just one game each, meaning that just 12 have borne the burden of these early season fixtures (I knew that Maths ‘O’ Level would show its worth one day).

This compares to 17 in the same period last season; and 19 and 17 in the first seven league games of the two previous seasons. So has Rafa had an epiphany, the ghost of Mark Lawrenson’s moustache appearing to him in chains, moaning “you should always play your best side”?

Or are there other dark forces at work, such as those that bend time at Old Trafford, so that otherwise fastidious referees become befuddled when looking at their own watches?

The answer, I suspect, is that he has been blown off course by, as Harold MacMillan put it, “events, dear boy, events”.

The loss of Alonso and the injuries to Aurelio, Aquilani and Agger (watch out Babel and Benayoun) have reduced the numbers at his disposal certainly, shrinking the pool of talent available.

This pool is of course shrunk even further by the evaporation known as Voronin, Degen and Dossena, whose status as fringe players must surely owe more to their haircuts than any aspiration to first team standing.

But the real reason why Rafa has chosen to ignore one of his most devout canons, the rotation of players to preserve their energy for later in the season, is the seismic ramifications of those two early defeats, immediately plunging us six points adrift of the Chelsea arrivistes.

For despite the obvious clichés of it being a long season, plenty of points to play for etc., any further deficit incurred before we travel to Stamford Bridge a week on Sunday would put us at risk of being 10-12 points behind should our dire record at the Home of No History prior to last season return to haunt us.

Putting on a brave face in this situation would require the combined acting skills of John Gielgud and Ralph Richardson, aided by the entire staff of the BBC Make-up Department.

So while there may appear to be plenty of time available for us to claw our way back to the top, the reality is that Rafa has been unable to take the risks inherent in rotation, and has sensibly opted to delay any radical changes until the situation improves.

Our aim now must surely be to stay in contention until Christmas at the earliest, and reappraise the position then.

Anything less and it might not be just Goodnight from him, but quite possibly Goodnight from him.
LINK

That article was a lot of fun...some nice witty remarks in there (I liked the one about evaporation in our pool of talent!).  I think the point is reasonably well put as well, although I would point out that Rafa didn't rotate all that much last season either (would Mick have been talking about seeing the light and dimmer switches otherwise? ).  That's important to keep in mind; the lack of rotation is not especially down to losing 2 games this season and thus not being able to afford to gamble.  I think Rafa has truly seen the benefits of keeping a fairly settled side.

[DrPepe]

That article was a lot of fun...some nice witty remarks in there (I liked the one about evaporation in our pool of talent!).  I think the point is reasonably well put as well, although I would point out that Rafa didn't rotate all that much last season either (would Mick have been talking about seeing the light and dimmer switches otherwise? ).  That's important to keep in mind; the lack of rotation is not especially down to losing 2 games this season and thus not being able to afford to gamble.  I think Rafa has truly seen the benefits of keeping a fairly settled side.

...and the point that we've actually had less players available to rotate, with injuries to:

aurelio
agger
skrtl
agger
mascherano
riera

already this season

[bigmick]

Well nobody can say we didn't give mass rotation a try. God knows we tried it, we stuck with it even when the evidence it was damaging us was just about beyond sensible refute, we ploughed on regardless. Even the brief periods in when we ditched it and fairly instantly had success (usually when fecking about had put us in strife), we still weren't convinced that shelving it might be the plan.

Eventually, thank God we finally decided to give picking a relatively settled team a try. We even had a wee look at playing players in positions which they were accustomed to, dropped the idea that you could change the formation from week to week, change the centre back pairing without having an effect on defensive prowess, change the central midfield pairing without effecting fluency.

We stopped doing such things as playing Peter Crouch as a left winger and wondering why it didn't work etc. Sure we still have our Martin Skrtel at right back in order to combat Stewart Downing moments, but by and large Steven Gerrard on the left wing in order to ensure Bolo Zenden gets a turn at central midfield Away at Arsenal type decisions are a rarity these days.

Till my dying day nobody will ever convince me that had we seen the light earlier we wouldn't be further on than we are now, but you can't go back in time. We got it in the end, so from here at least we have a chance.