Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Yeah Rafa needs to start winning things. When you spend 300Mil you expect a return right? I mean that works out to 27Mil a player. Oh wait we didn't spend like that though did we?

No we didn't Bav, and neither did anyone else either so what you on about mate 

[Gerrard30391]

I think the interesting thing now would be to look at drawn games, as this is where we cocked up last season.

[Gerrard30391]

Just had a little look myself:

99/00: 10 (4th)  67 points
00/01: 9   (3rd)  69 points
01/02: 8   (2nd) 80 points
02/03: 10  (5th) 64 points
03/04: 12  (4th) 60 points
04/05: 7    (5th) 58 points
05/06: 7    (3rd) 82 points
06/07: 8    (3rd) 68 points
07/08: 13  (4th) 76 points
08/09: 11  (2nd) 86 points

So OK, lets put it like this. We have turned the losses into draws, but we are now surely drawing games we were previously winning to?

Take the 07/08 season for example, from draws, we let slip an extra 26 points. From losses the same season, we lost out on 12 points. So, therefore, we dropped 38 points that season (an average of 1 whole point per game!). Point being, it's not the loss count that is necessarily an issue here with Rafa's record, it's the losses that are bothering me more. Whereas, if you look at Man Ure's statistics from the last few seasons and you see they lost more than us in the past two seasons at least. In 07/08 drew 6 and lost 5, which equates to loosing 27 points by my reckoning, leaving us 11 points behind them.

So, all in all, i reckon looking at Rafa's record with regards to wins/losses, we are probably not doing anyone any favours.

[Owzat]

Many pundits and fans alike talk about not being able to lose more than so many games to win the league. It's a load of rubbish, the more games you win the more likely you are to win the league, the less defeats comes as a natural consequence because the more you win the less you can lose. Even in an even split of draws and defeats, if you win 27 games you could only lose seven games max anyway.

So here's the same seasons comparing our draws with those of the Champions

DRAWS

99/00 Man Utd 7-10 Liverpool
00/01 Man Utd 8-9 Liverpool
01/02 Arsenal 9-8 Liverpool
02/03 Man Utd 8-10 Liverpool
03/04 Arsenal 12-12 Liverpool

04/05 Chelsea 8-7 Liverpool
05/06 Chelsea 4-7 Liverpool
06/07 Man Utd 5-8 Liverpool
07/08 Man Utd 6-13 Liverpool
08/09 Man Utd 6-11 Liverpool

03/04 was an exception(al season) as Arsenal were unbeaten, the Champions haven't drawn more than six games in the last four seasons. The two seasons we've drawn less than eight games we lost 14 in one and scored 82 points in the other. But it is the points total that counts and last season was the first we've dropped less than 30 points under Rafa and only the fourth time we've dropped less than 40 points in the last 10 seasons (average 43 leaves 71 points gained average)

[Sabre]

In Marca they have done an especial article about this 300th game of the Rafa era. I'll skip the journo's introduction because it's a bit difficult to translate and it might be a bit too pro Rafa for Newkit.

I'll just quote and translate Rafa's words and what about he's talking.

On working with less money than some rivals

"You might find he who says that other teams have more money and a more stable football structure. But I tell them that our new project, in which we take charge of the Academy, pretends to stablish the base of the future of the club, we'll make everything go in the same direction."

"It's a long task that we've just started, but I have no doubts that this task will conveniently pay off in the future and will give the club stability".

On how he feels about the club

"The thing I feel most proud about is the warmth of the supporters. I've felt loved and respected since moment one. Their passion and their dedication are laudable".

On the offers he has

"Offers? Talking about that is beside point. Despite it's true we've received offers, the loyalty I have to Liverpool is prioritary when it reached the time to renew the contract".

----------

So it seems Rafa has a plan, that he's ready to remain here even without the big bucks, and that he thinks he's on the start of a new project based in the Academy.

I guess that will be good news for us the Rafa fans. I guess it's a bit worrying that in this review of his 300 games, he only talks about future, he has not talked about achieving titles now. I suppose he took it for granted 

---------

The article also brings a tiny stat table with this data:


Competition   Games Played / WON / DRAW / LOST / GF / GA / % victories

Premier  300  172  66  62 515 255   57.35%
FA CUP   15       8     3    4   36  19   56.92%
Carling   15       9     1    5    29 25    60.00%
CL          72      42    16   14   121   54  58%
Others     3        2     0      1   5   2   66.67%

[bigmick]

He said he "always knew he would be a success in English football" Sabes, I can't get over that  One FA Cup in five seasons, at Liverpool, a success? Even if you include the Champions League win which was achieved with a largely inherited team (as was the FA Cup but that's by the by) I would STILL count the achievements in his tenure so far as being OK to reasonable but not much better.

Particularly given the fact that he has had the services of Steven Gerrard at the peak of his career, for free in terms of transfer money, throughout his time as the manager, I wouldn't quite term it a "success" to be totally honest. Mind you, many would no doubt so it's all opinions.

[Sabre]

In this particular interview he didn't talk about his success. I guess success is a relative thing. When you look at Liverpool's reputation and history, not winning anything in 3 years is not good enough. Voices like Toshack insist on this.

When you think that when Rafa came the media talked about the top three, and now they talk about the top four, we've beaten twice the points record in the league, and now Fergie rants about us because we're a threat again, I guess we could talk about success.

You can discuss about a relative thing like success for ages. The thing is, would another manager would have done better? IMHO in most cases no. Whoever came, he would had a big task coming back to challenge and competing with Manchester and Chelsea economic prowess. The other important question is, would another manager make a better job in the future? That's debatable. IMHO you might find one or two managers that could do better among the top ones in thw world, but I think you could find far many more that wouldn't.

It seems that whoever stays here, he'll have to be a manager that knows working with the youth system. Rafa has yet to prove he's good at that. He asks time now he controls the Academy, we'll see how he does.

[tubby]

We can only give him the time he deserves, as long as the powers that be don't lose sight of that we should be fine. And he just signed a new contract so im sure he willl be here long time.

[Number 9]

He said he "always knew he would be a success in English football" Sabes, I can't get over that  One FA Cup in five seasons, at Liverpool, a success? Even if you include the Champions League win which was achieved with a largely inherited team (as was the FA Cup but that's by the by) I would STILL count the achievements in his tenure so far as being OK to reasonable but not much better.

Particularly given the fact that he has had the services of Steven Gerrard at the peak of his career, for free in terms of transfer money, throughout his time as the manager, I wouldn't quite term it a "success" to be totally honest. Mind you, many would no doubt so it's all opinions.

Oh fer sake just come out and say you hate him with a passion...people will respect you more rather than listening to you pussyfoot about!

"Oh he inherited the team that won the C/L oh he inherited the FA cup winning side off Houllier"

So in other words,as Rafa has inherited this team,he has done nothing for us?It was all Houlliers doing then was it??If thats your opinion ..OK,just stop skipping around your feelings with plastic posts,say what you mean

And he has had Gerrard in his prime,what does that prove/disprove??So a manager comes to LFC and its freaky that there is a world class player there...is that odd?I dont think so,its LFC..we always have players like that.....when Gerrard retires,there will be someone else!

Cue the "Will there really" from Di,cks like the Rock etc...I have an idea,why dont we start a thread about how shi'te Rafa is and how painful it is to be a fan of LFC??

[bigmick]

He said he "always knew he would be a success in English football" Sabes, I can't get over that  One FA Cup in five seasons, at Liverpool, a success? Even if you include the Champions League win which was achieved with a largely inherited team (as was the FA Cup but that's by the by) I would STILL count the achievements in his tenure so far as being OK to reasonable but not much better.

Particularly given the fact that he has had the services of Steven Gerrard at the peak of his career, for free in terms of transfer money, throughout his time as the manager, I wouldn't quite term it a "success" to be totally honest. Mind you, many would no doubt so it's all opinions.

Oh fer sake just come out and say you hate him with a passion...people will respect you more rather than listening to you pussyfoot about!

"Oh he inherited the team that won the C/L oh he inherited the FA cup winning side off Houllier"

So in other words,as Rafa has inherited this team,he has done nothing for us?It was all Houlliers doing then was it??If thats your opinion ..OK,just stop skipping around your feelings with plastic posts,say what you mean

And he has had Gerrard in his prime,what does that prove/disprove??So a manager comes to LFC and its freaky that there is a world class player there...is that odd?I dont think so,its LFC..we always have players like that.....when Gerrard retires,there will be someone else!

Cue the "Will there really" from Di,cks like the Rock etc...I have an idea,why dont we start a thread about how shi'te Rafa is and how painful it is to be a fan of LFC??

If I "hated him with a passion" Barry I would definately say so. I've never been afraid of speaking my mind on here, and I certainly haven't developed a fear of doing so recently. Some things he has done over his five years in charge have IMHO been utterly ridiculous, and I've never been afraid to say so as you no doubt are painfully aware. I had this same discussion with someone else recently, and they said not only did I "hate him with a passion" but I "dreamed about his wedding tackle" as well .  Why it is that people are so keen to lump me in as a "Rafa hater" I'm not so sure, but if I ever get to that stage I'll definately post it up on the forum in the first instance so everybody is aware of it. It's also a shame that in order to get people to "respect me more" I'd need to tell a lie and say I hated Rafa, but that being the case I'll just have to continue to be disrespected I suppose.

The rest of the post "so he's done nothing for us, it was all down to Houllier" and the like is just off the wall. I don't hate Rafa by any means and I have never made any secret of the fact that I much prefer him to the French bloke, so I can't have explained myself very well there. Similarly, your line about Gerrard doesn't really apply. Gerrard has been arguably THE best, and certainly one of the best five or six players in the World during Rafa's time at the club, which is a huge advantage to have. Those who seek to paint his tenure in a rosy light are never shy of telling us that he inherited a sh!t team and that he hasn't spent feck all, so it seems only fair to bring a bit of balance.

Balance though doesn't go down well with some people when it comes to the manager. If we waste 20 million quid on a bad player, it's not Rafa who signed him, it's the chief executive who signed him behind his back . If the team plays well, it's down to the managers excellence, if we don't, "it's the players innit". IMHO he has done an Ok job, decent if you prefer that word. Sorry to all if that's not quite heaping enough praise on him for your personal tastes, but that's my honest opinion.

I count no trophies for three seasons as not good enough. He gets the "decent" rating because he won the Champions League in his first season and the FA Cup in his second. Had we have lost either penalty shoot out in the drawn finals (after Gerrard had dragged us out of the sh!t both times) his record would not be as "good" as it is, so we shuld be thankful for that.

It's for each individual to judge for themselves though surely? My feeling is that no trophies for three seasons and a squad which looks like ours does at the moment rates as OK bordering on decent. I don't have a problem with other people thinking Rafa is Shankly reincarnated, or that his record represents tactical genius, it's just their opinion and they're entitled to it. So am I entitled to mine though.

[Owzat]

Realists will always get lumped in with "Rafa haters" come pessimists simply because they don't toe the line in the happy clappy world of the optimists.

I seriously doubt Rafa can win the league, his tactics are questionable, he can't maintain a solid balance between scoring and defending and his substitutions more often than not seem to follow a pre-set programme ie he brings the same players on for the same players off at the same time, except yesterday. He doesn't seem to know, or at least he didn't, that you can't win the league the same way he did it with Valencia (different league Rafa) In spells we seem positive enough to win the league, but then there always seems to be a new problem every time we solve one, with ongoing problems like not being able to defend set pieces.

Of course the trigger statement "always knew he would be a success in English football" is rather a ridiculous non-statement. Has he defined "success", is his idea of success the same as everyone else's? Some might consider a European Cup and finishing second a raging success, perhaps he doesn't get that the league title is what the fans really want and if he doesn't win that then he hasn't actually been as much of a "success" as he might think. Is winning the league the determining factor in whether or not he has been a "success"? If he left now, would he have been a success? Maybe he's measuring his "success" by his length of stay, doing just enough each season to earn another isn't necessarily "success" though. Maybe it is more a sign of faith and hope, that we will progress after a good season in the league (05/06 and 08/09) and that any lapses are just blips.

Would Houllier, Evans or Souness have been considered "successes" for no trophy and one final in three seasons? Maybe had they finished second in fairness, but how many second, third and fourths does someone get before they should be making that final large leap and winning the competition? Plenty of Henmaniacs claim he was a success and point to his record at Wimbledon, but as with the manc "record" of seven consecutive QFs in the Champions League, how much do 'near misses' or 'good runs' count for when the object is to win it?

[DrPepe]

his substitutions more often than not seem to follow a pre-set programme ie he brings the same players on for the same players off at the same time, except yesterday.

...and a load of other times 

[loopyliverpool]

For Rafa to be one of the better managers the club have had he needs to win the League. The best chance we have had in the last 19 years came last year... When we were riding high ten points clear he unfathonably decides to have some uncalled for rant at United; he allows the one fit world class striker to return to his former club.... we go on an abysmal run that cost us our first championship in the best part of two decades. Hindsight and all that is a wonderous thing but will a manager ever snatch defeat from the jaws of victory so unnecessarily? Rafa is undeniably a 'good' manager but to become great the club demands the championship. His stubborness not to change things when they are going wrong until the 60 minute mark as well as his persistence with players of dubious quality can be cited against him. But his hits and misses in the transfer market has brought in Torres, which we can applaud him for and the two trophies he has won do give him a certain amount of kudos. The team can at times be as good as any and at others look decidely average. Rafa asked for five years and he has had them come the end of this season, he's done well enough but is the team/squad going to be champions... imho from what I've seen the answer is no and you can guarantee you will have the majority of fans on here saying he is a great manager and slagging off those who offer a contrary opinion to their own but, for me and a lot of the 'realists' on here he is a 'good' manager who has been unable to bring the one trophy that really matters to the club.

[devaney]

Just a few of Rafa's ups? Were they really worth a five year contract worth more than £20m?

I know Sammy wanted to go because Rafa told him he wouldn't get regular first team football! HOW MUCH DO WE NEED SAMMY NOW?  HIS PERFORMANCE AGAINST MAN U LAST SEASON SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH FOR RAFA TO REALISE THAT HE WAS A MASSIVELY IMPORTANT PART OF THE TEAM. DID RAFA MAKE SAMMY FEEL THAT HE WAS - DID HE FK!

I know Alonso went because he was made to feel about as wanted as a hole in a Jonny at the end of the 2007/2008 season! AND WHAT DID RAFA DO AFTER XABI'S STAND OUT 2008/2009 SEASON? Rafa once again simply failed to perform as a manager should and keep his best assets! Rafa couldn't even persuade Xabi to stay for a year and help us win the title for ffs!

Stevie G nearly went ffs to Chelsea of all fkng places! A PICTURE IS EMERGING. LFC CAN NO LONGER GUARANTEE THAT IT CAN HOLD ONTO IT'S FINEST ASSETS. Mascherano to Barca at the end of the season? Torres get's offered a crazy deal and the club have the opportunity to sell him for £80m - what would happen?  is everybody convinced that we wouldn't sell him? I'm not!

Fk I know I am sounding like a right moaning cnt but to be honest I am fed up with the incredibly stubborn approach taken by Rafa and some of his useless tactics and inept man management skills. MAYBE IT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT because frankly I think we are going backwards. My only hope that Aquilani is a fkg miracle worker if he ever plays! At least Keane the useless tw.at did at least get on the pitch!

RANT OVER!

[Sabre]

Well here "300" are some games, and we usually mention this kind of round number of games. Kind of a football aniversary. Since the article was about it and the thread had that name I put the article here.

I didn't want to start WWIII