Liverpool FC Forum

[LegBarnes]

Not sure if taking Quaresma view on things as gospel in this case makes sense.  By his own admission, it's his interpretation of the conversation with a Liverpool rep (not necessarily Rafa, either).  I'd be very surprised if Rafa or anyone came in and said 'we like you, son, but we'd have to totally overhaul your style of play if we signed you.'  As others have said, I think it's far more believable to think that the LFC contact discussed the importance of hard work and playing for the team alongside the individual flair.

Like Saint I've never been particularly impressed with Quaresma and the rest of the interview just reinforces the sense that he's a bit of a nonce, to me.  As such, I'm not prepared to read too much into what he thinks this Liverpool rep may have been asking of him.

^   ^

My first impression reading the highlighted part of the interview was that it sounded like Quaresma wasn't up for any hard work. He sounds like he's only prepared to do the odd little trick and then spend the rest of the time just wandering around the pitch aimlessly.

I haven't seen much of Quaresma at Porto but what I have seen is that he ain't changed that much since he was at Barcelona where he was a lazy little fecker who wouldn't/couldn't deliver the goods on the pitch. There must be better flair players out there than him.

He is a bit like that but get him in the team get good people around him the thrill of the premeirship I think would get his work rate up.

I think he just got into bad habbits but a change of clubs and new fans and players around a lad can do great things for him.

Hes very tallented end of story right people he would be world class.

[LegBarnes]

Firstly why bother trying to sign someone when your not totally convinced/happy with their own abilities in the first place ? why try and change someone ?


Do you think Fergie did that with Ronaldo, tell him to cut out the tricks. Become more bland in his style and mould him into something hes not. 40 odd goals last season would suggest he didnt, and he reaped the rewards.

It shows you have never coached before. A coach is always trying to improve a player as none are perfect and all need to adapt to play within a system. Torres plays differently now than he did before Raffa, Gerrard has changed the way he plays under Raffa.

For Raffa to say "I think you are a very talented player but pass the ball more" or " put your foot in and get back and defend" is normal and "coach-like".

On the Ronaldo thing, I guarantee that Fergie changed his style of play. Firstly he passes more now than he did with less tricks, secondly he defends more and thirdly he is alot physically stronger and bigger. I am sure Fergie had a lot to do with all that.

I'll get my coaches badge just to post on here . 

Note: to any of the dimwits on here Leon including, who said Fergie helped elavate Ronaldos game I know that FFS ....

Hmmm quite interesting that (the highlighted bit) to see that we were interested in him. But wanted to change him some what ?

Now I thought changing a player (for the worse IMHO) is what the English coaches do do best at grassroot level, although its a different topic altogether. Why look to sign a player and change him ?

Firstly why bother trying to sign someone when your not totally convinced/happy with their own abilities in the first place ?

Secondly why try and change someone ?

Now we've all had a good moan around here about the "Parry factor" and the daily digs about the Yanks not pulling the stops out into getting a player signed up. But when the manager talks to a player and starts to become fussy with the players attributes, telling him you 'want to change him into something hes not'. Then maybe this is another reason it takes an eternity for us to sign a player.

This is another gripe I have with Rafa though, when signing a player it seems that he always has to be a workhorse before anything else. If the player isnt, it seems the gaffer isnt interested. Is this why we still have no wing players do you think, because Rafa would like glorified fullbacks playing that position instead of an out and out tricky winger ? I think so.

If we'd have signed Quaresma the bloke would of had to work more on his physical aspect of the game, hes joining the Prem FFS ! He would of beefed up surely in training, aswell as matches. Doing more for the team, well couldnt Rafa with a bit of subtlety gotten a bit more out of him as time went on. I think so, instead of scaring the bloke off during talks telling him "we want to change you".

Do you think Fergie did that with Ronaldo, tell him to cut out the tricks. Become more bland in his style and mould him into something hes not. 40 odd goals last season would suggest he didnt, and he reaped the rewards.

  I  implied (unless you actually are a dimwit and overlooked that point) that a manager can help develope a player in his "weaker" areas once signed. In Ronaldos case, when to pass and lay it off, and to show a bit more ethic in his workrate.

There is nothng wrong with that, just as long as you dont change someone so much that you nulify their very own skills to suite your methods. Like I said this happens at grass root level, where kids are coached the flair out of them in many cases nowadays. Then we sit here scratching our heads wondering why no quality talents coming through the British youth system.

I just hope that when Rafa looks to sign a more "flairy" type player, he doesnt scare them off by telling them they wont be able to express themselves on the ball as much, and fall in line more.

I dont know if I cannot make it any clearer. Jeeez

Feel bad for you bag its disgraceful how much fu.cking agro topic starters are getting just for posting there views.

Its a fair post with good points back of you trolls go eat babies or some thing.

[Leonmc0708]

Not sure what the point of the thread is, not here, wont be here and therfore totally irrelevant in the History of this football club

That is because you've totally missed the point lad.

Yep people do that alot nowa days if they dont read to good.

I understand your post perfectly and its a fair point ifrafa is saying things like this to players its not on and he is only costing us time and money.

I have highlighted the important point here.

[JC_81]

A couple of points about that Quaresma interview.  Firstly, I can't believe how Quaresma put up with the journalist throughout.  He really went for Quaresma and stuck it to him on various issues - accused him of lacking motivation, of being too fond of the party life and of being jealous of Ronaldo.  Could you picture a journalist over here getting away with saying that to a high profile player??  Firstly he wouldn't have the balls, and secondly the player would just walk away rather than answer.  Fair play to the journalist for going for it and to Quaresma for trying to answer and not getting up and walking out.

That said I wouldn't take what Quaresma says about the alleged 'LFC official' at face value.  That could have been anyone and wasn't necessarily Rafa.  And imo, if it was Rafa and Quaresma's attitude was 'I'm not changing my game for anyone' then screw him, Rafa is better to ask that during talks than after spending 15 million on the lad and then find out he's got an attitude or is unwilling to play for the team.

Although I do think Rafa has an unhealthy obsession with buying hardworking players over flair.  Ideally you want players with both, but if you can't find them then you have to balance your team with a bit of both, at the moment we don't have enough creativity and mark my words we will not win the Premiership with our current squad, but that's another argument.

On Quaresma, personally I don't want him, and I didn't want Simao either when we were linked.  For me they both flatter to deceive.  Skilful but wildly inconsistent and both flopped when given a shot at a top club, then returning to Portugal to rebuild their reputations.  Luis Garcia has been mentioned in this thread, for me he is a better player than either Simao or Quaresma.  He did waste the ball a lot, but he was a fighter and would work for the team, who also chipped in with goals consistently and could change a game.

[Toffeehater]

I'd describe Lil' Luis Garcia as a "flair" player and although I loved the little bugger, he did drive my nuts a great deal of the time. Just how many players of his type can any team afford to accomodate ?

Lets also not underestimate the value of hard working athletic players. So called "flair" players may give you moments of magic but often fail to deliver or just go missing for large parts of a game. Sure, we could do with a bit more flair in the team but I don't blame Rafa for insisting that any show pony we might be interested in signing understands that first and foremost hard graft is required at LFC.

got a fair point on flair players there

[Scottbot]

I started to read through the early posts on this thread but got a bit lost in the 'stop bashing Rafa....i'm not bashing Rafa' bollo..x that seems to stink up most threads the past 9 months but....

On the subject of flair players i'd say Rafa appreciates them very much but also as a defensive (first always) coach he won't (and NEVER will) tolerate players who simply sit back and watch while others get back to defend around them. He is particularly fond of (to use his favourite quote after compact and counter-attack!) players who can 'play between the lines' and obviously Garica and (to a lesser extent) Yossi fall into this category. However he doesn't seem particularly keen on wingers in the mould of Quaresma, Ronaldo or a Nani. If you look at his signings to play on the wing they have tended to be straight-line players with decent pace who like to hug the touch-line, Pennant, Gonzalez and Nunez all fall into to this bracket and so does this lad Riera. While these were all bought at (relatively) bargain-basement prices it's also fair to say that they are all s..h..i..t (and that's including Riera). So I probably agree with Mick in that Benitez likes his flair players but he simply isn't a very good judge of them, certainly not when you compare his judgement of centre-midfield players and centre-halves.

As for Quaresma he is in my opinion just the sort of player we should be looking to buy if the price was right. Two good feet, he's quick, he's big enough, fantastically skillful, he's versatile and he's got a lot to prove by the sounds of things. Most importantly for me he is a dribbler who can run with the ball at his feet and beat people. We need that in our side more than ANYTHING else at the moment. No doubt he's a gamble, a bit of a project for a season I'd expect but he's got the skill-set to be a fantastic player and his up-side is VERY high. You can't really say that about a lot of our players just now.

[Scottbot]

He is particularly fond of players who can 'play between the lines' and obviously Garica and (to a lesser extent) Yossi fall into this category. However he doesn't seem particularly keen on wingers in the mould of Quaresma, Ronaldo or a Nani.

And if he doens't want to spend on a winger in the Quaresma mould I really can't fathom why we haven't expressed an interest in Arshavin? He seems to fit the Rafa mould perfectly, he's versatile, clever and skillful much like Luis Garcia or Pablo Aimar in his pomp and I reckon he can be had for a similar fee to the Robbie Keane deal.

Can't believe i'm actually quoting meself!!!!

[Bad Bob]

I started to read through the early posts on this thread but got a bit lost in the 'stop bashing Rafa....i'm not bashing Rafa' bollo..x that seems to stink up most threads the past 9 months but....

On the subject of flair players i'd say Rafa appreciates them very much but also as a defensive (first always) coach he won't (and NEVER will) tolerate players who simply sit back and watch while others get back to defend around them. He is particularly fond of (to use his favourite quote after compact and counter-attack!) players who can 'play between the lines' and obviously Garica and (to a lesser extent) Yossi fall into this category. However he doesn't seem particularly keen on wingers in the mould of Quaresma, Ronaldo or a Nani. If you look at his signings to play on the wing they have tended to be straight-line players with decent pace who like to hug the touch-line, Pennant, Gonzalez and Nunez all fall into to this bracket and so does this lad Riera. While these were all bought at (relatively) bargain-basement prices it's also fair to say that they are all s..h..i..t (and that's including Riera). So I probably agree with Mick in that Benitez likes his flair players but he simply isn't a very good judge of them, certainly not when you compare his judgement of centre-midfield players and centre-halves.

As for Quaresma he is in my opinion just the sort of player we should be looking to buy if the price was right. Two good feet, he's quick, he's big enough, fantastically skillful, he's versatile and he's got a lot to prove by the sounds of things. Most importantly for me he is a dribbler who can run with the ball at his feet and beat people. We need that in our side more than ANYTHING else at the moment. No doubt he's a gamble, a bit of a project for a season I'd expect but he's got the skill-set to be a fantastic player and his up-side is VERY high. You can't really say that about a lot of our players just now.

Some good points there, Scott.  Benitez likes players who can track back as well as get forward, and that includes his strikers.  There's no way he's going to buy anyone that's 100% flair (however we're defining it) because (a) they won't pull their weight defensively (and Benitez wants the team to defend as an 11-man unit) and (b) because the ones worth having (ie. the ones who make up for a lack of tracking back with true genius in attack) usually command silly money.  That reason alone is why the 'footy manager' brigade (just for Mick ) get so fecked off with Rafa each transfer window.

On top of that, I think you make an important point about where Benitez wants players with that creative spark.  His oft-quoted 'between the lines' comment tells us everything about where Rafa wants and expects the fulcrum of our attack to come.  Sometimes, he'll line up these 'between the lines' players (Garcia, Benayoun, Babel, Gerrard) in wide positions but they obviously have license to cut inside and play off the striker(s).  Width, in this set-up, comes primarily from the fullbacks and I think his signings this summer signal even more of an intent from that direction.  When he does buy wingers, as you say, he goes for the hug-the-touchline types but they often struggle to make an impact given our set up.  They are all expected to put in their shift defensively, however.  BTW, this leads to your Arshavin question: if flair 'between the lines' is what Benitez values, why not go in for that fella (or Aguerro or Modric etc.).  Again, I think money's a main deterrent, as these lads can be rather expensive too.  Also, I think Rafa is very careful about who he thinks is up for the pace and physicality of the Prem.  Playing in the congested area around the edge of the box means that these lads are going to be kicked, kneed, elbowed, scythed down, etc. all day.  They need to have the fight in them to take the abuse and keep diving back into the fray and they need to have the ability to still provide that creative spark in the midst of the maelstrom.  Perhaps Rafa and our scouts don't think the likes of Arshavin or Modric really have what it takes to cope in England? (I guess we'll soon find out in Modric's case.)

So, I think Quaresma was never going to be a serious option for us given both of these factors.  He doesn't seem to work hard enough defensively (and his interview suggests he's not interested in giving it a go) for Rafa's tastes and he doesn't seem to offer that infield, between-the-lines creativity that Rafa values.

[Reg]

So, I think Quaresma was never going to be a serious option for us given both of these factors.  He doesn't seem to work hard enough defensively (and his interview suggests he's not interested in giving it a go) for Rafa's tastes and he doesn't seem to offer that infield, between-the-lines creativity that Rafa values.

A defining description of LFC and the fans - we buy fancy foreigners when in fact we want scousers.

A team full of Carras and Gerrards is what we want and we scour the world looking for them blissfully unaware that the best player profiles come from within a 20 mile radius of the ground.

Alas poor Yorrick..........   

[red37]

"Flairy"   

[LegBarnes]

Quote (Bad Bob @ July 23 2008,17:01)
So, I think Quaresma was never going to be a serious option for us given both of these factors.  He doesn't seem to work hard enough defensively (and his interview suggests he's not interested in giving it a go) for Rafa's tastes and he doesn't seem to offer that infield, between-the-lines creativity that Rafa values.

Winger for me is down the line always get crosses in shouldn't be tracking back or cutting in side to much unless of course plan A isn't working.

Wingers have to be treated as deeper right sided forwards they do as much good as strikers and there price reflects that.

Tbh we haven't won the league since we had a good winger or two Barnes comes to mind.

I dont see how this is a problem get the blood cash out and buy a top winger or two.

Name me a english side that has won the prem who hasnt had a good winger and i show you how to make gold from corn flakes.

[LFC2007]

I agree with Bad Bob's point entirely on this, if there's any truth in it at all, it's probably more likely that the representative gave Quaresma a brief impression as to how he'd be expected to contribute to the team, which inevitably involves attacking as well as defensive disciplines (which the rep, and Rafa probably knew he wasn't too keen on, just by watching him play). The EPL is renowned for it's physical and aggressive nature, and it's quite likely I think that Quaresma equated these extra disciplines (which he'd have to take on board if he was to join the club) with being 'less expressive on the pitch'. That could be a refection of his attitude, or something simply misinterpreted in translation. Assuming the interview has been translated from Portuguese, the fact that heard is spelt 'hurd' suggests that the translation itself may be questionable. A nuance or two can make all the difference in translated interviews. I really don't think Rafa scares off flair players as the opening post suggests, and I wouldn't want a player scared or not too keen on the manager's ideas anyway.

On the point about Rafa placing too much emphasis on the 'workhorse factor', it's true he likes players who are defensively aware, but I don't see a problem with that as every top manager desires players who are defensively aware. I think BigMick's assertion is most accurate - it's not that he's reluctant to sign flair players, (he was after Simao, Alves, Galletti etc., and he signed Garcia ffs!), he just hasn't signed the correct ones (Pennant, Benayoun, Leto, Nunez, Babel, Kuyt, Voronin, for example). That's partly due to financial constraints (or rather more apt would be to say we haven't had a luxury budget), as, if you put it another way - would we have signed better 'flair' players if we'd had the same transfer budget as Chelsea? I think the answer would yes. If we'd had their budget we'd probably have signed Alves, and right now we'd probably be after David Villa - as I can think of no other reason as to why he was removed from our list of targets. Both top quality 'flair' players, IMO.

[maypaxvobiscum]

look at arsenal, even their defenders have more flair then most of our attackers. honestly.

[maypaxvobiscum]

hang on, what about our young reserves and foreign ''starlet''s? are players like nemeth, leto, pacheco, bruna, etc grafters or flair players?

[LegBarnes]

I agree with Bad Bob's point entirely on this, if there's any truth in it at all, it's probably more likely that the representative gave Quaresma a brief impression as to how he'd be expected to contribute to the team, which inevitably involves attacking as well as defensive disciplines (which the rep, and Rafa probably knew he wasn't too keen on, just by watching him play). The EPL is renowned for it's physical and aggressive nature, and it's quite likely I think that Quaresma equated these extra disciplines (which he'd have to take on board if he was to join the club) with being 'less expressive on the pitch'. That could be a refection of his attitude, or something simply misinterpreted in translation. Assuming the interview has been translated from Portuguese, the fact that heard is spelt 'hurd' suggests that the translation itself may be questionable. A nuance or two can make all the difference in translated interviews. I really don't think Rafa scares off flair players as the opening post suggests, and I wouldn't want a player scared or not too keen on the manager's ideas anyway.

On the point about Rafa placing too much emphasis on the 'workhorse factor', it's true he likes players who are defensively aware, but I don't see a problem with that as every top manager desires players who are defensively aware. I think BigMick's assertion is most accurate - it's not that he's reluctant to sign flair players, (he was after Simao, Alves, Galletti etc., and he signed Garcia ffs!), he just hasn't signed the correct ones (Pennant, Benayoun, Leto, Nunez, Babel, Kuyt, Voronin, for example). That's partly due to financial constraints, as, if you put it another way - would we have signed better 'flair' players if we'd had the same transfer budget as Chelsea? I think the answer would yes. If we'd had their budget we'd probably have signed Alves, and right now we'd probably be after David Villa - as I can think of no other reason as to why he was removed from our list of targets. Both top quality 'flair' players, IMO.

Yes but rafa spends to much cash on lets be honest sh.it players and could have bought each season 1 or 2 top players which if he was building a team would have been ok.

think of it if he bought 1-2 top players in full time he at club he would have had a top team but cos he is impulsive spender he blows all his budget on stop gaps.