Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

Not sure what the point of the thread is, not here, wont be here and therfore totally irrelevant in the History of this football club

That is because you've totally missed the point lad.

Re read it and I understand now, its a Rafa bash.

You think any discussion that doesn't start with Rafa is god and end with in Rafa we trust, is a Rafa bash Leon 

We could equally say that we had few flair players towards the end of Houllier's reign, relying on Owen and Gerrard to both create and score the goals.

Similarly now its Torres and Gerrard

Benayoun actually played the full 90 mins 14 times in all competitions last season ...... hardly Rafa trusting in his flair player?

Not quite.

But I do think that using quotes from a half decent but un-proven and ultimately bitter footballer as a stick to beat the guy with is weak.

I honestly don't see it that way Leon, I just see it as a way of introducing a topic on the lack of creative and flair players within the squad, and possible reasons why we sometimes have difficulty in getting certain types of players to sign?

Its like Overmars, he said something about he would never play for a team that wanted him to go back over the half-way line 

[66-1112520797]

Firstly why bother trying to sign someone when your not totally convinced/happy with their own abilities in the first place ? why try and change someone ?


Do you think Fergie did that with Ronaldo, tell him to cut out the tricks. Become more bland in his style and mould him into something hes not. 40 odd goals last season would suggest he didnt, and he reaped the rewards.

It shows you have never coached before. A coach is always trying to improve a player as none are perfect and all need to adapt to play within a system. Torres plays differently now than he did before Raffa, Gerrard has changed the way he plays under Raffa.

For Raffa to say "I think you are a very talented player but pass the ball more" or " put your foot in and get back and defend" is normal and "coach-like".

On the Ronaldo thing, I guarantee that Fergie changed his style of play. Firstly he passes more now than he did with less tricks, secondly he defends more and thirdly he is alot physically stronger and bigger. I am sure Fergie had a lot to do with all that.

I'll get my coaches badge just to post on here . 

Note: to any of the dimwits on here Leon including, who said Fergie helped elavate Ronaldos game I know that FFS ....

Hmmm quite interesting that (the highlighted bit) to see that we were interested in him. But wanted to change him some what ?

Now I thought changing a player (for the worse IMHO) is what the English coaches do do best at grassroot level, although its a different topic altogether. Why look to sign a player and change him ?

Firstly why bother trying to sign someone when your not totally convinced/happy with their own abilities in the first place ?

Secondly why try and change someone ?

Now we've all had a good moan around here about the "Parry factor" and the daily digs about the Yanks not pulling the stops out into getting a player signed up. But when the manager talks to a player and starts to become fussy with the players attributes, telling him you 'want to change him into something hes not'. Then maybe this is another reason it takes an eternity for us to sign a player.

This is another gripe I have with Rafa though, when signing a player it seems that he always has to be a workhorse before anything else. If the player isnt, it seems the gaffer isnt interested. Is this why we still have no wing players do you think, because Rafa would like glorified fullbacks playing that position instead of an out and out tricky winger ? I think so.

If we'd have signed Quaresma the bloke would of had to work more on his physical aspect of the game, hes joining the Prem FFS ! He would of beefed up surely in training, aswell as matches. Doing more for the team, well couldnt Rafa with a bit of subtlety gotten a bit more out of him as time went on. I think so, instead of scaring the bloke off during talks telling him "we want to change you".

Do you think Fergie did that with Ronaldo, tell him to cut out the tricks. Become more bland in his style and mould him into something hes not. 40 odd goals last season would suggest he didnt, and he reaped the rewards.

  I  implied (unless you actually are a dimwit and overlooked that point) that a manager can help develope a player in his "weaker" areas once signed. In Ronaldos case, when to pass and lay it off, and to show a bit more ethic in his workrate.

There is nothng wrong with that, just as long as you dont change someone so much that you nulify their very own skills to suite your methods. Like I said this happens at grass root level, where kids are coached the flair out of them in many cases nowadays. Then we sit here scratching our heads wondering why no quality talents coming through the British youth system.

I just hope that when Rafa looks to sign a more "flairy" type player, he doesnt scare them off by telling them they wont be able to express themselves on the ball as much, and fall in line more.

I dont know if I cannot make it any clearer. Jeeez

[Reg]

Now I thought changing a player (for the worse IMHO) is what the English coaches do do best at grassroot level, although its a different topic altogether. Why look to sign a player and change him ?

Firstly why bother trying to sign someone when your not totally convinced/happy with their own abilities in the first place ?

Secondly why try and change someone ?

Managers have a vision of what a player could develop into as Shanks did spotting Ray Kennedy playing out of position.

Players should consider advice from top coaches and have the courage to take a gamble and create a new role. As the lad said, doing what he does didnt work out with Barca and he was shown the door.

The fact no other club has stepped in and Rafa might have suggested the reason why and the solution shouldnt just be rejected out of hand which appears to have been the case.

[66-1112520797]

Now I thought changing a player (for the worse IMHO) is what the English coaches do do best at grassroot level, although its a different topic altogether. Why look to sign a player and change him ?

Firstly why bother trying to sign someone when your not totally convinced/happy with their own abilities in the first place ?

Secondly why try and change someone ?

Managers have a vision of what a player could develop into as Shanks did spotting Ray Kennedy playing out of position.

Players should consider advice from top coaches and have the courage to take a gamble and create a new role. As the lad said, doing what he does didnt work out with Barca and he was shown the door.

The fact no other club has stepped in and Rafa might have suggested the reason why and the solution shouldnt just be rejected out of hand which appears to have been the case.

Like playing Crouch on the left do you mean ?

Or Gerrard on the left, because of inadequate signings made out there ?

[66-1112520797]

One more thing, for the experts who have replied in this post, and that claim flair is not needed to help us achieve title challenges.

Why are you all whining and moaning we need to sign wide players this summer, when we all  ready have Kuyt, Babel, Pennant and Yossi ! ?

[hello_red]

The teams of the 70's and 80's were full of flair players , they just worked hard and played to their individual strengths within a team as well. McDermott, Dalglish, Souness,Heighway, R.Kennedy, Walsh, all the way through to Beardsley and Barnes.

The 60's team was often called a machine, but they still had Stevenson, Peter Thompson and StJohn to add creativity and flair. If any team would have suited Rafa I think it would have been the 60's team.

To say Kenny didn't have flair is a joke...... he could curl them in, chip them in, beat a player in less than a yard and still run his off for the team. Just because a player has flair doesn't mean he can't be a team player.

Well I think its how you interpret flair on the pitch. All the players you mentioned had bags of skill and superb football brains, but also strength and tenacity.

[andy_g]

One more thing, for the experts who have replied in this post, and that claim flair is not needed to help us achieve title challenges.

Why are you all whining and moaning we need to sign wide players this summer, when we all  ready have Kuyt, Babel, Pennant and Yossi ! ?

could it be because out of those 4 only one is a genuine winger and who still leaves much to be desired?

any good manager should be able to bring out the best in a player and/or adapt him to play within the manager's system without compromising any of his natural game or ability. we have seen that benitez already has the ability to get players to play for him in unusual roles - babel on left wing with limited success and kuyt as wide midfielder with arguably a huge increase in effecttiveness. my view is that the majority of managers will have some ideas on how any new player should play and that very few will be told 'just get on with your own game, son'. whether a player is willing to be 'moulded' or not is the real issue and it seems very much like quaresma is not.

[neil]

The teams of the 70's and 80's were full of flair players , they just worked hard and played to their individual strengths within a team as well. McDermott, Dalglish, Souness,Heighway, R.Kennedy, Walsh, ....

walsh?! *coughs* were'd that come from? 

[LegBarnes]

Not sure what the point of the thread is, not here, wont be here and therfore totally irrelevant in the History of this football club

That is because you've totally missed the point lad.

Yep people do that alot nowa days if they dont read to good.

I understand your post perfectly and its a fair point if rafa is saying things like this to players its not on and he is only costing us time and money.

[account deleted by request]

One more thing, for the experts who have replied in this post, and that claim flair is not needed to help us achieve title challenges.

Why are you all whining and moaning we need to sign wide players this summer, when we all  ready have Kuyt, Babel, Pennant and Yossi ! ?

could it be because out of those 4 only one is a genuine winger and who still leaves much to be desired?

any good manager should be able to bring out the best in a player and/or adapt him to play within the manager's system without compromising any of his natural game or ability. we have seen that benitez already has the ability to get players to play for him in unusual roles - babel on left wing with limited success and kuyt as wide midfielder with arguably a huge increase in effecttiveness. my view is that the majority of managers will have some ideas on how any new player should play and that very few will be told 'just get on with your own game, son'. whether a player is willing to be 'moulded' or not is the real issue and it seems very much like quaresma is not.

Kuyt started off as a wide player/winger and played there for years and Babel has played most of his professional and international career as a left winger, so I don't think it was any great leap for either player (or Rafa). So I am not really sure of your point Andy?

All players play at the direction of their manager, sometimes to the detriment of the individual but for the good of the team. Rooney for example has been widely acclaimed for sacrificing his individual abilities for the good of the team :-

Sir Alex Ferguson has admitted that he must "define" Wayne Rooney's role at Manchester United this season after conceding that he has allowed the 22-year-old to sacrifice his natural abilities for the sake of the team for too long.

Link to full article

This unfortunately can have a very negative affect on a player, who risks not only his reputation, but his confidence and even his career at the club.

Sissoko for example was asked to undertake a role for which he was eminently unsuitable in the latter stages of his career  with us. His confidence (not high to begin with) dropped as did his performances and even though he had sacrificed himself "for the team", was sold on.

So to cut a long story short (or shorter) a player also has to weigh up what affect the managers ideas may have on his career, and if making a manager happy in the short term may damage or help his career in the longer term.

As another example, when Jimmy Greaves was asked to tackle back and work harder for England, he refused saying if he did that he wouldn't be able to be in the right place to score or have the strength to sprint for the through ball.  While he was knocking goals in for fun, it was easy to overlook him strolling about, but when he hit a dry patch (or the bottle) he hadn't much else to offer.

In conclusion while it may seem arrogant of Quaresma (and others) to refuse to take on additional or different roles sometimes its to protect their reputations and careers.

[LegBarnes]

I think a lot of you are being a bit high and mighty. Since Rafa has been here we have identified that we are crying out for a couple of wingers(screaming it during the last 2 years) and now here is a genuine out and out winger who shows bags of skill and ability, and we are saying we dont rate him?

He's a excellent player and A LOT better than the options we have a present. If I was manager, I would snap him up in a heartbeat.

How people can say they dont rate him he is twice the player pennent will ever be would start every game at liverpool.

Ok he isn't the best all round winger in world but he trys things and thats more then any one else does at club atm in that area.

Plus he does have a good set of core skills for the winger role.

What you got to ask your self is with him on team sheet do you think teams would fear us more , As i think its the one area we have lacked since the 90s

[account deleted by request]

I don't think anyone disputes he his better than what we have, just that for the money he would cost we could get much much better! IMO ANYWAY.

[LegBarnes]

One more thing, for the experts who have replied in this post, and that claim flair is not needed to help us achieve title challenges.

Why are you all whining and moaning we need to sign wide players this summer, when we all  ready have Kuyt, Babel, Pennant and Yossi ! ?

could it be because out of those 4 only one is a genuine winger and who still leaves much to be desired?

any good manager should be able to bring out the best in a player and/or adapt him to play within the manager's system without compromising any of his natural game or ability. we have seen that benitez already has the ability to get players to play for him in unusual roles - babel on left wing with limited success and kuyt as wide midfielder with arguably a huge increase in effecttiveness. my view is that the majority of managers will have some ideas on how any new player should play and that very few will be told 'just get on with your own game, son'. whether a player is willing to be 'moulded' or not is the real issue and it seems very much like quaresma is not.

Kuyt started off as a wide player/winger and played there for years and Babel has played most of his professional and international career as a left winger, so I don't think it was any great leap for either player (or Rafa). So I am not really sure of your point Andy?

All players play at the direction of their manager, sometimes to the detriment of the individual but for the good of the team. Rooney for example has been widely acclaimed for sacrificing his individual abilities for the good of the team :-

Sir Alex Ferguson has admitted that he must "define" Wayne Rooney's role at Manchester United this season after conceding that he has allowed the 22-year-old to sacrifice his natural abilities for the sake of the team for too long.

Link to full article

This unfortunately can have a very negative affect on a player, who risks not only his reputation, but his confidence and even his career at the club.

Sissoko for example was asked to undertake a role for which he was eminently unsuitable in the latter stages of his career  with us. His confidence (not high to begin with) dropped as did his performances and even though he had sacrificed himself "for the team", was sold on.

So to cut a long story short (or shorter) a player also has to weigh up what affect the managers ideas may have on his career, and if making a manager happy in the short term may damage or help his career in the longer term.

As another example, when Jimmy Greaves was asked to tackle back and work harder for England, he refused saying if he did that he wouldn't be able to be in the right place to score or have the strength to sprint for the through ball.  While he was knocking goals in for fun, it was easy to overlook him strolling about, but when he hit a dry patch (or the bottle) he hadn't much else to offer.

In conclusion while it may seem arrogant of Quaresma (and others) to refuse to take on additional or different roles sometimes its to protect their reputations and careers.

Well good point and to add , He shouldn't change its his style it might not be the best style in world football but its his and to lose that would make him unhappy.

Fair play to the lad for sticking to what he knows.

[RUSHIE#9]

Not sure if taking Quaresma view on things as gospel in this case makes sense.  By his own admission, it's his interpretation of the conversation with a Liverpool rep (not necessarily Rafa, either).  I'd be very surprised if Rafa or anyone came in and said 'we like you, son, but we'd have to totally overhaul your style of play if we signed you.'  As others have said, I think it's far more believable to think that the LFC contact discussed the importance of hard work and playing for the team alongside the individual flair.

Like Saint I've never been particularly impressed with Quaresma and the rest of the interview just reinforces the sense that he's a bit of a nonce, to me.  As such, I'm not prepared to read too much into what he thinks this Liverpool rep may have been asking of him.

^   ^

My first impression reading the highlighted part of the interview was that it sounded like Quaresma wasn't up for any hard work. He sounds like he's only prepared to do the odd little trick and then spend the rest of the time just wandering around the pitch aimlessly.

I haven't seen much of Quaresma at Porto but what I have seen is that he ain't changed that much since he was at Barcelona where he was a lazy little fecker who wouldn't/couldn't deliver the goods on the pitch. There must be better flair players out there than him.

[LegBarnes]

I don't think anyone disputes he his better than what we have, just that for the money he would cost we could get much much better! IMO ANYWAY.

Well that might be the case saint but i dont see wingers lining up to join us who are better.

Mabye rafa should bite the bullet and say sorry and try to get him to us i rather have him then robbie keane.

FFs we need fu.cking wingers have done for 10 years now.