Liverpool FC Forum

[woof woof !]

I'd describe Lil' Luis Garcia as a "flair" player and although I loved the little bugger, he did drive my nuts a great deal of the time. Just how many players of his type can any team afford to accomodate ?

Lets also not underestimate the value of hard working athletic players. So called "flair" players may give you moments of magic but often fail to deliver or just go missing for large parts of a game. Sure, we could do with a bit more flair in the team but I don't blame Rafa for insisting that any show pony we might be interested in signing understands that first and foremost hard graft is required at LFC.

[andy_g]

looking at the dominant two forces in the premiership at the moment we're not far off them in the balance between 'flair players' and athletes or grafters.

chelsea rely almost entirely on grafters with good footballing ability with joe cole being the obvious exception now that robben has gone. deco coming in *may* add more flair and if the kaka deal does actually go through they'll have flair coming out of their ears.

the mancs have ronaldo (but maybe not this coming season), rooney who is kind of half and half, and possibly nani and anderson. alongside those lot are a bunch of talented grafters. people like giggs and scholes can show a little flair now and again but their game is certainly not based on it.

our only pure flair player luis garcia has gone and was successful within certain limits and almost always more in the champions league than the prem. we now have gerrard, torres and to a degree babel - none of them base their game on flair but can do it when necessary to great effect.

we all love to watch beautiful skillful football with the players really turning on the style but i'm not sure that that is what is needed to win the league at the moment. one or two players with the ability to turn a game with a full complement of players who will allow them to play to their advantages is what we have and it should be enough if used correctly.

[66-1112520797]

Quaresma: You must be talking about Liverpool? Well yes their representative came to me, and we spoke. They did not reject me, I believe they wanted to kind of change my role; they wanted me to be less expressive on the pitch and be more aggressive

Yossi isnt good enough to be our regular flair player, he's like Alonso IMO more intelligent more so than flairy.
And Pennant is not a flair player in my eyes, if he is he certainly isnt good enough.

Torres IMO is a striker first, and while he does have more flair in him than anyone else at the club he cannot do it alone. But like I said Torres IMO was signed to get goals, not create them and he obviously cannot do it all alone.

Gerrard is a mix between grit and flair with grit outweighing the flair, but that doest fix our solution on both wings. Where we have Kuyt who is a total grafter and depicts Rafa in every aspect of football. And Babel on the left who is by no means a guiley type of player, and depends on space and speed, and doesnt work well in tight spaces out on the wing, namely because he isnt a winger.

Rafa needs to spend big, not on your Yossi likes, or more avarage "creative" players but big money signing on an expressive footballer who is more inclined to do something individually than huffing and puffing up and down the side line all day long, in hope that Gerrard and Torres pull a rabbit out of the hat.

The interview and what S@int said concerning Ballague clarifies for me that Rafa looks for an industrious type player over anything else first and foremost, then secondly looks to mould or change them and make them part of a well oiled machine rather than being expressive and individual.

[bunglemark2]

I'd describe Lil' Luis Garcia as a "flair" player and although I loved the little bugger, he did drive my nuts a great deal of the time. Just how many players of his type can any team afford to accomodate ?

Lets also not underestimate the value of hard working athletic players. So called "flair" players may give you moments of magic but often fail to deliver or just go missing for large parts of a game. Sure, we could do with a bit more flair in the team but I don't blame Rafa for insisting that any show pony we might be interested in signing understands that first and foremost hard graft is required at LFC.

Mate, I think you could apply that across the board to even the current squad.
I've said on this forum before that I can't remember a match going back a long, long time...probably as far as the late 80's/early 90's, when you could visibly watch and feel the determination to stick in a crunching tackle, make the opposition know you were there, show them you meant business.....and really display a hunger to win.
I didn't see it at all last season, not even in Gerrard. In fact, the number of game he totally dropped off the pitch was astounding.
I'm not a fan of Barry, but if he can bring that passion and inspire others around him to do likewise, I'd have no fear against Manure, Arsenal or Chelsea, despite all the flair players they have. Hit 'em early, hit 'em hard....and all of a sudden you don't see any poncey stepovers.

[Leonmc0708]

Not sure what the point of the thread is, not here, wont be here and therfore totally irrelevant in the History of this football club

That is because you've totally missed the point lad.

Re read it and I understand now, its a Rafa bash.

[Leonmc0708]

Ronaldo, the ultimate flair player, was nothing to the player he was last season in the first few seasons.

Why ?

Cus he didnt do the hard work or the simple stuff enough.

But hten I guess Furgeson is wrong in changing the player as well hey ?

[account deleted by request]

Not sure what the point of the thread is, not here, wont be here and therfore totally irrelevant in the History of this football club

That is because you've totally missed the point lad.

Re read it and I understand now, its a Rafa bash.

You think any discussion that doesn't start with Rafa is god and end with in Rafa we trust, is a Rafa bash Leon 

We could equally say that we had few flair players towards the end of Houllier's reign, relying on Owen and Gerrard to both create and score the goals.

Similarly now its Torres and Gerrard

Benayoun actually played the full 90 mins 14 times in all competitions last season ...... hardly Rafa trusting in his flair player?

[kazza]

Firstly why bother trying to sign someone when your not totally convinced/happy with their own abilities in the first place ? why try and change someone ?


Do you think Fergie did that with Ronaldo, tell him to cut out the tricks. Become more bland in his style and mould him into something hes not. 40 odd goals last season would suggest he didnt, and he reaped the rewards.

It shows you have never coached before. A coach is always trying to improve a player as none are perfect and all need to adapt to play within a system. Torres plays differently now than he did before Raffa, Gerrard has changed the way he plays under Raffa.

For Raffa to say "I think you are a very talented player but pass the ball more" or " put your foot in and get back and defend" is normal and "coach-like".

On the Ronaldo thing, I guarantee that Fergie changed his style of play. Firstly he passes more now than he did with less tricks, secondly he defends more and thirdly he is alot physically stronger and bigger. I am sure Fergie had a lot to do with all that.

[Rafa D]

I don't trust Yossi either. He's a good player, nothing more, nothing less.

[Bad Bob]

Not sure if taking Quaresma's view on things as gospel in this case makes sense.  By his own admission, it's his interpretation of the conversation with a Liverpool rep (not necessarily Rafa, either).  I'd be very surprised if Rafa or anyone came in and said 'we like you, son, but we'd have to totally overhaul your style of play if we signed you.'  As others have said, I think it's far more believable to think that the LFC contact discussed the importance of hard work and playing for the team alongside the individual flair.

Like Saint I've never been particularly impressed with Quaresma and the rest of the interview just reinforces the sense that he's a bit of a nonce, to me.  As such, I'm not prepared to read too much into what he thinks this Liverpool rep may have been asking of him.

[hello_red]

You cant win the prem with flair players! Need graft and tenacity.

As Leon said earlier Ronaldo was nothing until he stared actually playing real football! IE working hard for the team.

When we had complete dominence over everthing football in the late 70s and early 80s we didnt have flair players. Kenny was our linch pin our point of attack but he wasnt a flair player, he just had a gifted football brain and ability to run his as off for 90 minutes! I want those types of players over players like Quaresma.

End of.

[Leonmc0708]

Not sure what the point of the thread is, not here, wont be here and therfore totally irrelevant in the History of this football club

That is because you've totally missed the point lad.

Re read it and I understand now, its a Rafa bash.

You think any discussion that doesn't start with Rafa is god and end with in Rafa we trust, is a Rafa bash Leon 

We could equally say that we had few flair players towards the end of Houllier's reign, relying on Owen and Gerrard to both create and score the goals.

Similarly now its Torres and Gerrard

Benayoun actually played the full 90 mins 14 times in all competitions last season ...... hardly Rafa trusting in his flair player?

Not quite.

But I do think that using quotes from a half decent but un-proven and ultimately bitter footballer as a stick to beat the guy with is weak.

[Rafa D]

I think a lot of you are being a bit high and mighty. Since Rafa has been here we have identified that we are crying out for a couple of wingers(screaming it during the last 2 years) and now here is a genuine out and out winger who shows bags of skill and ability, and we are saying we dont rate him?

He's a excellent player and A LOT better than the options we have a present. If I was manager, I would snap him up in a heartbeat.

[account deleted by request]

The teams of the 70's and 80's were full of flair players , they just worked hard and played to their individual strengths within a team as well. McDermott, Dalglish, Souness,Heighway, R.Kennedy, Walsh, all the way through to Beardsley and Barnes.

The 60's team was often called a machine, but they still had Stevenson, Peter Thompson and StJohn to add creativity and flair. If any team would have suited Rafa I think it would have been the 60's team.

To say Kenny didn't have flair is a joke...... he could curl them in, chip them in, beat a player in less than a yard and still run his off for the team. Just because a player has flair doesn't mean he can't be a team player.

[Leonmc0708]

I think a lot of you are being a bit high and mighty. Since Rafa has been here we have identified that we are crying out for a couple of wingers(screaming it during the last 2 years) and now here is a genuine out and out winger who shows bags of skill and ability, and we are saying we dont rate him?

He's a excellent player and A LOT better than the options we have a present. If I was manager, I would snap him up in a heartbeat.

Ask any Porto fan and they would snap your hand off to offload him.

Poor work ethic, and has already bottled it at a big club.

No doubt better than what we have by the way.