Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:05 am

From the Irish independent:

Benitez needs to focus on quality not quantity.

PEOPLE are asking Rafa Benitez the wrong questions in their bid to get to the bottom of Liverpool's current lack of form.

They're asking him if rotating his squad so frequently is doing more harm than good. I'm not sure if it's too relevant an issue. The real problem is that the players he has just aren't good enough.

Rightly or wrongly, any Liverpool team will always be compared with the legendary league winning selections of the past. And I honestly believe that from the current squad it's only Steven Gerrard that would have figured in the great sides that I was lucky to be a part of.

Of the rest, I'd say the only one to come close would be another Scouser in the shape of Jamie Carragher and while Xabi Alonso was very impressive last season, he's been a shadow of himself since the World Cup. His season hasn't even started yet.

A lot of the other players haven't been playing well this season but the issue could simple be that they're just not good enough in the first place. Certainly, the summer signings don't appear to have made Liverpool the serious title contenders that some believed they would be at the start of August.

Dutch striker Dirk Kuyt works hard and perhaps it's too early to be judging him. And you could say the same about Craig Bellamy but from what we've seen you would be sceptical about considering him a really top player. It's the same with Jermaine Pennant, Mark Gonzalez and some of the other new faces.

Last weekend's dismal showing against Manchester United was depressing. I really couldn't believe how many times Liverpool were softly giving away possession in the centre of the park.

When I came to Liverpool first, the simplest message we got, which came down from Bill Shankly, was that when we got the ball, all we have to do is make sure we get it to a red shirt.

Sure, Liverpool were doing plenty of that last Sunday but the only problem was that Manchester United were wearing red. It's the lack of real football brains in the current squad that Benitez has assembled which would worry me.

I can not understand why he keeps playing Luis Garcia away from home. He doesn't have strength and he doesn't have passing ability. The Spaniard is a liability for such tough games.

Just look at the situation now - down in 11th place needing a miracle to get back into the picture, with the title already out of the equation. In 1981-82 we were 12th at Christmas and still managed to win the league.

But that was a dressing room which included guys like Phil Neal, Alan Hansen, Phil Thompson, Graeme Souness and Kenny Dalglish. There's no one of that calibre to drag them out of their current mire.

We could go away from home in games, to places like Bolton and Blackburn, and come up against sides that would try and kick us for the first 60 minutes. The difference was we had the fight to get through that and eventually they would give up. Then our ability would come through and we would win the game.

This Liverpool side doesn't have the fortitude to cope with that 60 minutes and that's why they haven't a chance of winning the league with this squad.

In his defence, Benitez says that they had a worse start last season and they came back to qualify for the Champions League and win the cup. And that's fair enough. But already we're at a situation when that's probably the most they can achieve again unless they produce something special in Europe.

In any top club, they look for progress from year to year but Liverpool appear to have stalled. They've spent a fortune in the summer but they're still where they were this time last year.

They might have players who are good enough to produce it for the odd big occasion. Collectively, however, they don't have the strength to make that last over the course of the season. He can rotate the squad because they've got quantity. It's the quality that they're missing.

Ronnie Whelan

I think this is actually a constructive assessment of Liverpool's season rather than the usual ex-player cr@p about things being different (read better) in their day.

Maybe I am still upset about the way we surrendered at Old Trafford , but I think his comments about fighting to earn the right to play your football is something that has been missing from Liverpool this season.

Quality wise I think he has a point as well, but that judgement is based on this season (when they have all struggled) rather than on their true abilities.

The truth probably lays somewhere between the two, in that we arnt as good as we think, but we arnt that bad either.

Maybe the players arnt as good individually as the great Liverpool players of the past, but perhaps that shows just what a good job Rafa has done with the limited players at his disposal!

by **woof woof !** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:42 am

s@int wrote:Maybe the players arnt as good individually as the great Liverpool players of the past, but perhaps that shows just what a good job Rafa has done with the limited players at his disposal!

By limited I'm assuming you mean in terms of quality (as we're surely no longer short of numbers ) ,let's not forget that the players Rafa has are now very much ones that he bought , notable exceptions being Gerrard and Carragher.

I think Whelan is being a bit harsh when he cites only Gerrard and possibly Carragher as be good enough to get into the Liverpool sides of old . An on form Alonso would certainly have made the grade but he's pretty much spot on in his assesment of the rest.

by **teamleader1** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:15 am

I think its more a case of a true red wearing his heart on his sleeve,

Ronnie, along with many of us, is frustrated at the start weve made, to what we all hoped would have been THE season we lift title,

I personaly would hold fire on how they will react,
this whole episode may just be the making of the team, hopefully I will take my seat later and watch a liverpool side grab this season by the scruff of the neck an show everyone we are a team to be reckoned with,

We need to beat an unbeaten Villa side out of sight, and my monies on us to do just that.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:46 am

I dont think Ronnie Whelan is completely on the money with that one, TBH at the moment out of all the players Rafa has brought in. Three of them, Pennant, Aurelio and Gonzalez do look out of there depth. But I think we're best off reserving our judgement until the end of the season, maybe longer for Gonzo.

by **Houllier=LFC** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:18 am

Very true.
Should just go for our 1st choice instead of some 2nd 3rd choice budget players.

by **jkop** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:29 am

After 90 odd games Rafa should by now know his best 11, if he would stick with those players giving them time to settle, gel and bond but only Rafa knows best.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:27 pm

s@int wrote:I can not understand why he keeps playing Luis Garcia away from home. He doesn't have strength and he doesn't have passing ability. The Spaniard is a liability for such tough games.

More evidence that ex-Reds are as prone to talking sh!te as the rest of us. Garcia was a passenger at Old Trafford last weekend and needs to take a hard look in the mirror after that performance. But, to suggest that he's a liability in tough games is to ignore the key performances he's contributed in a red shirt over the last 2.5 years. Forget the march to Istanbul where he, alongside Stevie (who some suggest single-handedly won us the CL), played an absolutely pivotal role. How about the FA Cup Semi against Chelsea last year? That was a tough game but it seems to me that little Luis did the business and managed to score us the winning goal. Hardly a liability the last time he stepped out at Old Trafford, then!

Seriously, I have no problem with fair criticism where it's due but some of the rubbish that gets spouted to the press, even by ex-legends, is well over the top.

by **woof woof !** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:44 pm

Calling Garcia a liability is indeed a bit harsh . He is however (imo) very much a luxury . His spectacular and admittedly vital goals during his short career with us have to an extent clouded the fact that 80% of the time his passing (aka flicks and tricks) is more imaginative than realistic , when he's challenging for a ball most of the time it results in a free kick against him and when in possesion of the ball it doesn't take much more than a fly swat to knock him of it .

Don't get me wrong , I love the fella and I'm happy to see him at LFC , he is however still imo a luxury that sometimes we can do without.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:57 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Calling Garcia a liability is indeed a bit harsh . He is however (imo) very much a luxury . His spectacular and admittedly vital goals during his short career with us have to an extent clouded the fact that 80% of the time his passing (aka flicks and tricks) is more imaginative than realistic , when he's challenging for a ball most of the time it results in a free kick against him and when in possesion of the ball it doesn't take much more than a fly swat to knock him of it .

Don't get me wrong , I love the fella and I'm happy to see him at LFC , he is however still imo a luxury that sometimes we can do without.

You'll get no real argument from me, Woof. The big question when selecting Garcia, of course, is which one will show up: the little maestro whose creativity and skill unlocks defenses and who has a knack for scoring vital goals? Or the infuriating little waster who floats about for most of the game and who can't make even the simplest of passes come off? Unfortunately, the latter showed up last week rather than the former and it's down to Rafa to get the former showing up much more than the latter (or recognizing the difference straight away and hauling him off).

My problem is Whelan saying that he's not up for tough games as though he's never done the business when we all know he has. Much like Tommy Smith saying this week that Momo roams about too much and should shield the defense more, I question some of the suggestions that footy pundits--including ex-Reds--make. It's not that they know nothing about football, it's that they sometimes go too far in their assessments for my taste. When it's Andy Gray talking, we usually laugh (or curse) him off, but when it comes to ex-Reds a lot more fans are inclined to think "spot on" rather than take the analysis with a grain of salt. In a week where even a member of the board is sticking the boot in, I just am growing tired of all of the sly little inaccuracies spouted in the name of constructive criticism about the team.

by **puroresu** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:04 pm

I dont think his far off. We have a better squad than last year but the team isnt really any better. We are not a side full of genuine World Class players and like it or not every top side has world class players. Do we have the players which can play like Arsenal for instance. i.e. technically very gifted, full of pace, intelligent movement and the ability to play the correct pass. I dont think we have. Bellamy was signed as he had a clause in his contract meaning he was affordable. Is he genuinly a top top striker? Pennant was signed becasue we couldnt afford Alves. Again how good is he? Considering Arsenal got Rocisky for £7.5 mil which is a snip compared to what we paid for a player like Pennant who is not on that level. Gonzales I have faith in and have no problem with LFC signing potentially v good youngsters. Considering the budget we have we really need to be looking for gems around Europe. Kuyt is a very good player. He needs the service though and potentially can score a lot of goals but the side has to play a lot better to get the best out of him.

I wouldnt say Garcia is a liability but he isnt a player which would get in the other top clubs sides. Gifted he is but more often than not he does the incorrect thing. i.e. the simple pass.

by **woof woof !** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:21 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I question some of the suggestions that footy pundits--including ex-Reds--make. It's not that they know nothing about football, it's that they sometimes go too far in their assessments for my taste. When it's Andy Gray talking, we usually laugh (or curse) him off, but when it comes to ex-Reds a lot more fans are inclined to think "spot on" rather than take the analysis with a grain of salt.

I also question some of the things said by "footy pundits" BUT to be honest I have more respect for their opinions (including Andy Grays :wwww

) than 99% of the one eyed opinions aired in here . Like I indicated in another thread , we might not like what they're saying but given their experience in the game it is perhaps at least worth considering .

You yourself have just admitted

"It's not that they know nothing about football, it's that they sometimes go too far in their assessments for my taste."

Hence your reluctance to give credibilty to their perspective (?) .

Denial doesn't change the truth, however unpalatable it may be.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:34 pm

puroresu wrote:I dont think his far off. We have a better squad than last year but the team isnt really any better. We are not a side full of genuine World Class players and like it or not every top side has world class players. Do we have the players which can play like Arsenal for instance. i.e. technically very gifted, full of pace, intelligent movement and the ability to play the correct pass. I dont think we have. Bellamy was signed as he had a clause in his contract meaning he was affordable. Is he genuinly a top top striker? Pennant was signed becasue we couldnt afford Alves. Again how good is he? Considering Arsenal got Rocisky for £7.5 mil which is a snip compared to what we paid for a player like Pennant who is not on that level. Gonzales I have faith in and have no problem with LFC signing potentially v good youngsters. Considering the budget we have we really need to be looking for gems around Europe. Kuyt is a very good player. He needs the service though and potentially can score a lot of goals but the side has to play a lot better to get the best out of him.

I wouldnt say Garcia is a liability but he isnt a player which would get in the other top clubs sides. Gifted he is but more often than not he does the incorrect thing. i.e. the simple pass.

I understand what your saying, but in my mind Rafa has spent most in positions that he feels were needed. At the end of last season we were crying out for a right mid, and luckily Gerrard came up with the minerals and did the job. We were also in desperate need of attacking options upfront.
Rafa IMO spent big on Kuyt as he seems to be his number one option (10m). Added to that, Bellamy a pacey intelligent forward who wont need too much time in settling in to the Prem, again we lacked pace and intelligence up front so I can see why Bellamy was signed. I thought and hopefully time will tell, that they were good signings.
To be honest after Gerrards blinding season at right mid, and the fact that on his day he's a world class player. It was only natural to think any midfielder brought in would offer cover for such an excellent midfielder. Again I thought Pennant would of been adequate cover, he may of been Rafa's second choice to Alves but thats where the budget comes into it. So again Pennant knows the English game, put more crosses in than any other midfielder last year and offered more width. Then, didnt Benitez sign Aurelio on a free? No harm done there then really, and Gonzalez who proved in Spain what a good player he looks, but obviously will take time to bed down.
So I can honestly say that I thought Rafa brought well, and althougth these players arent deemed "world class" I hope they will still offer us decent strength and depth if nothing else, which during a marathon of a league campaign is needed .

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:46 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:I question some of the suggestions that footy pundits--including ex-Reds--make. It's not that they know nothing about football, it's that they sometimes go too far in their assessments for my taste. When it's Andy Gray talking, we usually laugh (or curse) him off, but when it comes to ex-Reds a lot more fans are inclined to think "spot on" rather than take the analysis with a grain of salt.

I also question some of the things said by "footy pundits" BUT to be honest I have more respect for their opinions (including Andy Grays ) than 99% of the one eyed opinions aired in here . Like I indicated in another thread , we might not like what they're saying but given their experience in the game it is perhaps at least worth considering .

You yourself have just admitted

"It's not that they know nothing about football, it's that they sometimes go too far in their assessments for my taste."

Hence your reluctance to give credibilty to their perspective (?) .

Denial doesn't change the truth, however unpalatable it may be.

For me, mate, it's a matter of balance, and that goes for people on here, current players, managers, ex-players, everyone. Very few things in life or football are black and white, and so I think that all praise and criticism needs to operate in shades of grey if it is to be credible.

For instance, it is balanced and reasonable to say--as you've done above--that Garcia's had some wonderful moments for us but infuriates a majority of the time. That's fair because it acknowledges that he's had both a negative and positive impact on the team. To say, though, that he's a liability in tough games goes too far for me...it's just not a balanced and reasonable assessment based on how many times he's come up with the goods in tough games against big teams in the past. Whelan's comment makes it seem as though it is bloody obvious to everyone except Rafa that Garcia is too lightweight for the big occasion and had no business being on the pitch at Old Trafford. Well, that's going too far for me and I wouldn't call it 'denial of an unpalatable truth' on my part to say so.

As I said in the other thread on this topic, when ex-Reds talk, I listen because they have a level of insight that is unparalleled due to their experiences with the club. But, that doesn't mean that I won't take exception when these pundits take things a step too far, over-simplifying complex issues in the process.

by **66-1120597113** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:12 pm

Been a Badbob watcher for a while...quite Bigmickish in posts but easier to read if you've had a few beers!

If we are talking about Garcia i think he is great for LFC...at times the one we all want to hug at other times the one we all want to shout about!The one thing i can say about L Garcia is this,he can play well he can play bloody awful...he always has confidence in himself regardless of his last game!I think he is great for us and a KEY player especially in Europe!

AS for today..what a great team display of excellence!Apart from their goal it was like a Liverpool fans wet dream.

by **DonnieDarko** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:24 pm

Bellamy was signed as he had a clause in his contract meaning he was affordable

If you watched Bellamy at Blackburn last season, he (and Gamst) carried the team on his shoulders. He was phenomenal not only against mid table teams but also against the likes of Chelsea, Man U, and Arsenal. Even if he is not scoring, he is always working hard and trying to make everyone around him better. I am convinced he will succeed

Wow though, what a game by Garcia today. Horrible last weekend, great this weekend. It boggles the mind.

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