Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

Why?  Are you so convinced that Houllier achieved more in his first three seasons than Rafa has?

I think you've missed the point, people are not compairing Houlliers first three years to Rafa's there compairing the whole time he was here, and are basically saying Rafa has achieved more in his "short" amount of time.

Then move the goaal posts when he does get critised as he hasnt had time to achieve anything yet, Lol.

Bob I couldnt care if you've got the full backing of free masons, doesnt mean your right. Only me and a few others realised or got off the fence as soon as we realised Kuyt was a workhorse.

[account deleted by request]

I don't think anything is being achieved by arguing over who's achievments were greater. I was hoping to see some arguement re the actual progress we have made.

If a new manager came in some of the players who are now being stoutly defended would be discarded without a second glance, and would be tomorrows dross, in just the same way that some of Houlliers players were. Thats just the way football is.

BTW I think Bamaga mans right 

Where I feel we have gone backwards is when we are playing the top sides, under Houllier our record was quite good, under Rafa not so good. While as Owzat has mentioned its still only 3 points when you beat a top side the effect is actually 6 points as it takes 3 points off your rival as well, plus the differing moral boost of beating a rival.

This is one area that needs sorting, we should be capable of taking 4 points off our rivals with the team we can put out.

Up to now we have discussed PLAYERS , LEAGUE POSITION and CUPS , what about TACTICS?

[Bad Bob]

Why?  Are you so convinced that Houllier achieved more in his first three seasons than Rafa has?

I think you've missed the point, people are not compairing Houlliers first three years to Rafa's there compairing the whole time he was here, and are basically saying Rafa has achieved more in his "short" amount of time.

Then move the goaal posts when he does get critised as he hasnt had time to achieve anything yet, Lol.

Bob I couldnt care if you've got the full backing of free masons, doesnt mean your right. Only me and a few others realised or got off the fence as soon as we realised Kuyt was a workhorse.

I knew Kuyt would come into this at some point!

Yes, you were right about him and I've acknowledged that.  Doesn't mean you're right about this.

I'll make it crystal clear: I think Rafa has achieved more in his first three years than Houllier achieved in his first three years.  You seem to think there is irrefutible evidence to suggest otherwise but I certainly haven't seen it.  Over to you...

[stmichael]

I think Houllier made initial advances in modernising the club, say on an infrastructural level. However, as a coach on the footballing side of things and as a man, he doesn't compare to Benitez.

Houllier kept making the same mistakes over and over again and the way in which he treated certain players was terrible, especially players who showed any intent of bringing some individuality to our game. In the transfer market he squandered a hell of a lot of money, a lot more than some great ones he actually made. He never did anything about these mistakes either.  Benitez has already shipped off players that he has bought who he deems to have failed. 

In his interviews he was patronising and frustrating, never addressing any criticism levelled at him yet always being smug about himself. Benitez, even when we win is the first to look at all the negatives and is far more constructive.  Houllier would bring out inconclusive statistics etc to make himself look good.

I think with Benitez there are greater times coming and I think while Houllier may have put his experience as a director to decent use, this wasn't the case on the training ground or on the pitch, not in the long term. We had a great year in 2001, but his tenure was longer than that one year and that can't forgive what was mostly very frustrating for me. Houllier's players have talked about the impact Benitez made to the footballing side of things.

[Sabre]

Champions League overshadows (I'll drop the vastly for this one  ) winning the Carling Cup and perhaps even edges winning the UEFA Cup (the FA Cup is a bit special as a competition so I won't go as far as that).  That's my view.  No disrespect to Houllier's cup achievements but, IMHO, Rafa's are more impressive.

I'd rather have a trophy in the cabinet than be a runner up of a cup final, also didnt we knock out Barca, and Roma on the way to our UEFA cup success ?

Remove the grey glasses, we beat Barcelona in the UEFA when they were in total crisis, where as we beat Barcelona in the CL when they were the current champions.

I guess that the job done in CL in this 3 years will be appreciated in time, once we realise that clubs like Manchester United only won it twice and Chelsea never won it. It's not the fúcking milk cup.

I do know that as prior to that, we'd won it FOUR times.

I dont expect you to appreciate anything other than Rafa's tenure.

You're a master pointing out the obvious. Of course I know the previous FOUR ones, why do you think are Liverpool world wide known? I just was stating the fact that it was not the same Barcelona, the comparison between a Barcelona that was 5th in the league and playing the uefa, and the Barcelona that was CL champion and league champion is evident.

But now you mention the past, you never resort to the past to remove any kind of guilt to Rafa for not winning the league, and it's been some years without it.

As I've said, I'll take off my rose glasses, once you remove your grey coloured ones 

[account deleted by request]

I think Houllier made initial advances in modernising the club, say on an infrastructural level. However, as a coach on the footballing side of things and as a man, he doesn't compare to Benitez.

Houllier kept making the same mistakes over and over again and the way in which he treated certain players was terrible, especially players who showed any intent of bringing some individuality to our game. In the transfer market he squandered a hell of a lot of money, a lot more than some great ones he actually made. He never did anything about these mistakes either.  Benitez has already shipped off players that he has bought who he deems to have failed. 

In his interviews he was patronising and frustrating, never addressing any criticism levelled at him yet always being smug about himself. Benitez, even when we win is the first to look at all the negatives and is far more constructive.  Houllier would bring out inconclusive statistics etc to make himself look good.

I think with Benitez there are greater times coming and I think while Houllier may have put his experience as a director to decent use, this wasn't the case on the training ground or on the pitch, not in the long term. We had a great year in 2001, but his tenure was longer than that one year and that can't forgive what was mostly very frustrating for me. Houllier's players have talked about the impact Benitez made to the footballing side of things.

Good post StMike, alot of good points there mate. Not this one though :-

the way in which he treated certain players was terrible

Cisse?  Crouch?

POT,KETTLE , BLACK ? 

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Houllier, got us 8 points behind the champions, the closest Benitez has been is 3 times that figure, what are we measuring progress on?

[66-1112520797]

Why?  Are you so convinced that Houllier achieved more in his first three seasons than Rafa has?

I think you've missed the point, people are not compairing Houlliers first three years to Rafa's there compairing the whole time he was here, and are basically saying Rafa has achieved more in his "short" amount of time.

Then move the goaal posts when he does get critised as he hasnt had time to achieve anything yet, Lol.

Bob I couldnt care if you've got the full backing of free masons, doesnt mean your right. Only me and a few others realised or got off the fence as soon as we realised Kuyt was a workhorse.

I knew Kuyt would come into this at some point!

Yes, you were right about him and I've acknowledged that.  Doesn't mean you're right about this.

I'll make it crystal clear: I think Rafa has achieved more in his first three years than Houllier achieved in his first three years.  You seem to think there is irrefutible evidence to suggest otherwise but I certainly haven't seen it.  Over to you...

I dont want to be acknowledged, but it doesnt always mean the majority is right.

Anway Bob, People have been debating Houlliers seven years to Rafa's three. Rafa has won the major trophy of Europeasn football. Houllier won the minors, but in numbers and so far has brought us closer tio challenging the league, which is the most important thing here.

Read whar Saint said about Houlliers teama taking points off the other big three. Rafa's is very poor, add to that our league for last year which was humungus in terms of poingts and its pretty pi$$ weak all in all. The European cup winning it has been his achilles heel, he hast kicked that on in terms of taking it into domestioc form.

Over to you Bobby 

[Bad Bob]

Houllier, got us 8 points behind the champions, the closest Benitez has been is 3 times that figure, what are we measuring progress on?

In the 2005/2006 season, we finished in 3rd, 9 pts behind the champions (Chelsea).  Manager: Rafa Benitez.

[woof woof !]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

[66-1112520797]

Houllier kept making the same mistakes over and over again

You could put Benitez at the begining of that sentence, and it wouldnt raise to many eyebrows,.

@ Sabre

[account deleted by request]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

[66-1112520797]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

[account deleted by request]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

Plus the man thats going to save our season, HOW COULD I FORGET Harry Kewell !!!!

[woof woof !]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

Carragher and Gerrard can hardly be considered "signings" . Finnan and Riise may be good players but to describe them as "Key" is really stretching the imagination.