Liverpool FC Forum

[ConnO'var]

If God had intended for us to play football in the clouds he wouldn't have put grass on the ground.

Our players are far better on paper than Arsenals team.














Trouble was the b@stards insisted we played on grass 

Good 'un mate... 

[liverbird07]

So what progress if any have we made since Rafa came? The easy answer is 2 CL finals (1 win) an FA cup win and a League cup final. However we were a decent cup side even under Houllier, and while there's no way we would have won the CL under Houllier, I am pretty sure we would have picked up a cup or two along the way.

Its the league that should show the real progress (if any)we have made. Under Houllier we were a top 4 team, failing to achieve this only once during his reign, excluding the split season with Evans. We are still a top 4 side, again failing only once, but I would argue we are a top 4 side with a great deal more comfort now than then, even more so if you take into account the raised standards over the last few years.

So the big question is, have we closed the gap on the top teams in the intervening years........ maybe not in terms of points or results against the top sides, but the bar has been significantly raised over the last few years, and we have at least kept pace if not narrowed the gap.

One stat that surprises me is how many of Houlliers players are still regulars 4 years later. Finnan, Hyypia, Carra, Riise, Gerrard not forgetting the ever elusive Kewell(regular on the injury list anyway)Half a team of Houllier players!

The obvious improvements have been Reina, Alonso, Mascherano and Torres, with Agger arguably not yet quite as good as Sami was but obviously much better than Sami now.

Reina against Dudek, no contest Reina would win in a heartbeat.

Alonso against Hamann would be a battle of the titans, but Rafa's man would just about shade it in my opinion.

Mascherano against Biscan while not a walk over would certainly be classed as a mismatch, with Rafa's man walking away with the award.

Owen against Torres would be a difficult one to call, but Owen was no longer the same player and doubts were being raised about his attitude long before he decided to jump/desert the ship. Close but no cigar for Houllier

The tricky part would be trying to decide between the rest. Heskey against Kuyt
Murphy against Voronin
Diouf against Benayoun
Baros against Crouch

I have no doubt we have a much stronger squad now, the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, Traore etc just wouldn't get a look in now thank god against the likes of Babel, Aurelio, Sissoko.

Have we made progress? I think we have but maybe not as much as we would have hoped.

Maybe the biggest progress we have made is in our manager.

Rafa against Houllier no contest

Our bad performances reflect the lack of confidence in our players who under extreme pressure to perform in order to keep their place. Rotation didn't get us anywhere last season and this season we can hardly get through the early stage of the CL. And the we're slowly slipping down in the premiership table. Still Rafa insists on his Rotation policey which is why their are more Liverpool fans seeing sense and agreeing that it's time Rafa packed his bags and let someone with more interest , insentive and a tactive mind take the job.

[Bammo]

Not sure we have been watching the same games mate. I would argue our football has been FAR TOO DIRECT for much of this season. The ball is being forced forward TOO quickly, too many hollywood balls and risking possession when we could and should be retaining it. Much of this ( i think) is due to the addition of Torres. Thanks to his pace, strength and determination he is well capable (as we have seen) of turning a hopeful punt into a great ball. But it comes with a downside, how many times have we seen Reina quickly smash a flat kick into the corners in the hope Torres will get on the end of it? And he's not the only one guilty of it, you could point the finger at Gerrard, Riise, the two centre-halves and probably a few more. Too many balls into space and not enough into feet. and as for playing counter-attacking football, we only really get the chance to play this way against the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and the mancs.

Let me clearup what I'm saying because it's getting lost in a sea of long-ball/direct comparisons 

In general play, when we're building up form the back we do tend to play it forward with hollywood passes. These are either for Torres or Crouch and tend to just give posession back to the opposition. What I want is for us to pass and move to work it through the opposition quickly along the floor!

When we do play the big teams and get pushed back I'd like us to be able to counter-attack effectively. My original point (and how all this started  ) was that the media lauds Arsenal's style of play despite it having obvious flaws - like being vulnerable to harrying and quick counter-attacks. We seem to have a tendancy when we break to either lump it aimlessly forwards or hold it up for too long. Most of the players (maybe not Momo  ) are capable of quick passing so there's no reason why we can't score more from counter-attacks.

I really hope that's clear because my head is about to explode!

[stmichael]

I think in hindsight it's easy to see that we stuck by GH for far too long. And it's easy to see similarities now, which is why I guess some are so worried that it's all happening again. The board were too patient with GH.

But on the other hand we've not got to turn patience into panic. Arsene Wenger could turn up as our boss tomorrow and he'd not be able to improve us dramatically. Nor would Jose Mourinho or any of the others.

The owners seemed to leave Rafa with the impression that he'd have a lot more money than he actually got last summer. He planned for a certain amount of spending. Then he didn't get as much as he thought. And what he got, he got late. Malouda was a target, but we missed out on him because those above Rafa didn't pull their fingers out.

By now Rafa should have a list of targets he wants for the winter window, and the owners should be frank with him about whether he can afford them. The main problem of course is that we rarely see a flurry of activity in January as mist of the major players are cuptied. If we're still in the Champions League come then, the prices for the top players will shoot up dramatically.

Babel strikes me as having been bought for the future, and I honestly don't think we'd have Benayoun here if Rafa had been given the funds he expected. We missed out on Malouda through no fault of Rafa's. We missed out on Simao through no fault of Rafa's either.

Parry's got a lot to answer for, I don't think Rafa has anywhere near as much to answer for yet.

[LFC2007]

Babel strikes me as having been bought for the future, and I honestly don't think we'd have Benayoun here if Rafa had been given the funds he expected. We missed out on Malouda through no fault of Rafa's. We missed out on Simao through no fault of Rafa's either.

Parry's got a lot to answer for, I don't think Rafa has anywhere near as much to answer for yet.

How are you, Mr Hicks?

[account deleted by request]

I think in hindsight it's easy to see that we stuck by GH for far too long. And it's easy to see similarities now, which is why I guess some are so worried that it's all happening again. The board were too patient with GH.

But on the other hand we've not got to turn patience into panic. Arsene Wenger could turn up as our boss tomorrow and he'd not be able to improve us dramatically. Nor would Jose Mourinho or any of the others.

The owners seemed to leave Rafa with the impression that he'd have a lot more money than he actually got last summer. He planned for a certain amount of spending. Then he didn't get as much as he thought. And what he got, he got late. Malouda was a target, but we missed out on him because those above Rafa didn't pull their fingers out.

By now Rafa should have a list of targets he wants for the winter window, and the owners should be frank with him about whether he can afford them. The main problem of course is that we rarely see a flurry of activity in January as mist of the major players are cuptied. If we're still in the Champions League come then, the prices for the top players will shoot up dramatically.

Babel strikes me as having been bought for the future, and I honestly don't think we'd have Benayoun here if Rafa had been given the funds he expected. We missed out on Malouda through no fault of Rafa's. We missed out on Simao through no fault of Rafa's either.

Parry's got a lot to answer for, I don't think Rafa has anywhere near as much to answer for yet.

I think this is the problem mate, we buy Torres to close the gap, the mancs get Tevez to make sure they maintain their lead. So unless we buy more or better quality players than our rivals either through spending more than them, or being more astute in the transfer market we arn't going to close the gap that way.

Then we have the problem of our inability to close a deal quickly (Rick Parry?) We supposedly lost Evra, Malouda and Vidic in recent times because of this.

The alternative is gambling on buying them young and hoping they will progess into quality players. The problem with this approach is it takes time, and managers don't usually get allowed that much time.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Babel strikes me as having been bought for the future, and I honestly don't think we'd have Benayoun here if Rafa had been given the funds he expected. We missed out on Malouda through no fault of Rafa's. We missed out on Simao through no fault of Rafa's either.

Parry's got a lot to answer for, I don't think Rafa has anywhere near as much to answer for yet.

How are you, Mr Hicks?

We missed out on Malouda and Simao because of lack of funds? Well alright, lets say we got Malouda or Simao, neither I might add do I want, that means either Torres or Babel wouldn't of joined, and we probably would of missed out on Lucas. Now who do you think has got the better deal?

As for progress, GH left us in 4th, currently we're 6th, shows alot of progress for me. GH had won 3 trophies in his opening 3 years, Benitez 2, yet again huge progress. So I don't think we've moved on that much, certainly considering the players we have right now, we should be fighting stride for stride with United, not struggling to keep up after just a couple of months. Look at GH, if Gerrard got injured under GH, Danny Murphy or Igor Biscan was brought in, now if Gerrard gets injured Mascheranho or Lucas can be brought in. So the current squad of players we have, are the best we've had since the start of the Premiership in 92 "supposedly" , my views however are that many of the current crop of 1st team players, are useless.

[Bad Bob]

Babel strikes me as having been bought for the future, and I honestly don't think we'd have Benayoun here if Rafa had been given the funds he expected. We missed out on Malouda through no fault of Rafa's. We missed out on Simao through no fault of Rafa's either.

Parry's got a lot to answer for, I don't think Rafa has anywhere near as much to answer for yet.

How are you, Mr Hicks?

We missed out on Malouda and Simao because of lack of funds? Well alright, lets say we got Malouda or Simao, neither I might add do I want, that means either Torres or Babel wouldn't of joined, and we probably would of missed out on Lucas. Now who do you think has got the better deal?

As for progress, GH left us in 4th, currently we're 6th, shows alot of progress for me. GH had won 3 trophies in his opening 3 years, Benitez 2, yet again huge progress. So I don't think we've moved on that much, certainly considering the players we have right now, we should be fighting stride for stride with United, not struggling to keep up after just a couple of months. Look at GH, if Gerrard got injured under GH, Danny Murphy or Igor Biscan was brought in, now if Gerrard gets injured Mascheranho or Lucas can be brought in. So the current squad of players we have, are the best we've had since the start of the Premiership in 92 "supposedly" , my views however are that many of the current crop of 1st team players, are useless.

So Mascherano is no better than Danny Murphy?  Lucas--Brazilian footballer of the year--Leiva is no better than Biscan? 

[Bammo]

As for progress, GH left us in 4th, currently we're 6th, shows alot of progress for me. GH had won 3 trophies in his opening 3 years, Benitez 2, yet again huge progress.

We're not even a third of the way through the season so it's not a true reflection to compare the league positions. In fact, if we win the game in hand we'll be 3rd - an improvement.

Which is better: UEFA Cup, Fa Cup and League cup (what Houllier won in 2000 - 2001)

or

Champions League and FA Cup. (which Rafa has won).

I know which I'd choose.

[Leonmc0708]

Babel strikes me as having been bought for the future, and I honestly don't think we'd have Benayoun here if Rafa had been given the funds he expected. We missed out on Malouda through no fault of Rafa's. We missed out on Simao through no fault of Rafa's either.

Parry's got a lot to answer for, I don't think Rafa has anywhere near as much to answer for yet.

How are you, Mr Hicks?

We missed out on Malouda and Simao because of lack of funds? Well alright, lets say we got Malouda or Simao, neither I might add do I want, that means either Torres or Babel wouldn't of joined, and we probably would of missed out on Lucas. Now who do you think has got the better deal?

As for progress, GH left us in 4th, currently we're 6th, shows alot of progress for me. GH had won 3 trophies in his opening 3 years, Benitez 2, yet again huge progress. So I don't think we've moved on that much, certainly considering the players we have right now, we should be fighting stride for stride with United, not struggling to keep up after just a couple of months. Look at GH, if Gerrard got injured under GH, Danny Murphy or Igor Biscan was brought in, now if Gerrard gets injured Mascheranho or Lucas can be brought in. So the current squad of players we have, are the best we've had since the start of the Premiership in 92 "supposedly" , my views however are that many of the current crop of 1st team players, are useless.

So Mascherano is no better than Danny Murphy?  Lucas--Brazilian footballer of the year--Leiva is no better than Biscan? 

Its better than Fawlty Towers this place at times.

[stmichael]

Rafa has basically spent a significant proportion of the money he's had buying players who are not dramatically better than those they replaced. He even apears to be repeating the cycle with some of his own players, now.

The thing that baffles me is that he has spent brilliantly at the upper end of the market (relative to the position a player plays in): Pepe, Agger, Xabi, Torres, The Chief, etc. That suggest he's got a great eye for a player. It's when he's tried to wheel and deal in order to fill out the squad with numbers that he's been less successful. So why does he do it?

I don't accept the argument that he needs cover for injuries as he had a squad of players that won the European Cup, many of whom could have become his cover for injuries as he slowly brought in genuine talent. The fact is that he is overly obsessed with rotating his team. Obviously rotation is a vital aspect of modern football, but I believe that - regardless of how it worked at Balenthia - it is not working for us in the way he wants it to. I think it could with better players, but right now we haven't got them.

[maguskwt]

As for progress, GH left us in 4th, currently we're 6th, shows alot of progress for me. GH had won 3 trophies in his opening 3 years, Benitez 2, yet again huge progress. So I don't think we've moved on that much, certainly considering the players we have right now, we should be fighting stride for stride with United, not struggling to keep up after just a couple of months. Look at GH, if Gerrard got injured under GH, Danny Murphy or Igor Biscan was brought in, now if Gerrard gets injured Mascheranho or Lucas can be brought in. So the current squad of players we have, are the best we've had since the start of the Premiership in 92 "supposedly" , my views however are that many of the current crop of 1st team players, are useless.

currently we're 6th with only 28 more games to play... not that many left to make up for 6 pts eh...

so our 5th champions league cup is not as important as a uefa cup and league cup combined... yeah... who cares about a lone CL cup when you can have the other 2 cups eh...

your post my friend is just a load of ...

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Success is based on success as far as I'm concerned and how long it takes to get that success. In the same amount of time Houiller won more trophies, it's a fact.

As for Bob, Kuyt and Voronin or Fowler and Owen. So you can have that both ways.

[Bad Bob]

Success is based on success as far as I'm concerned and how long it takes to get that success. In the same amount of time Houiller won more trophies, it's a fact.

As for Bob, Kuyt and Voronin or Fowler and Owen. So you can have that both ways.

Houllier won more trophies but Rafa's trophies are more meaningful...also a fact (unless the Champions League has somehow become less important than the UEFA cup).

As for the rest, you were the one that compared midfielders--I just questioned your comparison.  You could have compared strikers and we would have a different conversation.  Now then, Torres or Baros?  Crouch or Heskey?

[Kharhaz]

To compare managers, players, fans (?) is to talk like your trying to justify todays team with yesterdays. Would I swap what Gerrard Houllier won with what Rafa has won? DAMN RIGHT I WOULD. Rafa took a p.iss pot and made it a barrel of wine. GH Spent millions and bought 8 cans of fosters !