Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

There you go, the graph doesnt lie

Nice work Connovar.

[account deleted by request]

Let's look at it this way, Arsenal reached the Champions League final in 2006 (and lost), they won FA last season and this season they are looking strong contenders for the title. We won the Champions League in 2005, improved in league form in 2005/6 and have lost our way a little with a Champions League final defeat and no trophies. Maybe next season we will emulate the goners having lost a CL final, won nothing and then be top the next season after ten games but somehow I suspect we won't.

Er, Chelsea won the FA Cup last season mate, Arsenal won squat

I think when he says FA he means F*ck All mate 

[burjennio]

s@int Posted on Oct. 29 2007,15:18
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Quote (burjennio @ Oct. 29 2007,14:18)
Quote 
Let's look at it this way, Arsenal reached the Champions League final in 2006 (and lost), they won FA last season and this season they are looking strong contenders for the title. We won the Champions League in 2005, improved in league form in 2005/6 and have lost our way a little with a Champions League final defeat and no trophies. Maybe next season we will emulate the goners having lost a CL final, won nothing and then be top the next season after ten games but somehow I suspect we won't.



Er, Chelsea won the FA Cup last season mate, Arsenal won squat

I think when he says FA he means F*ck All mate   

Oh feck youre right!!    Sorry all, but Im an idiot by trade

[66-1112520797]

s@int Posted on Oct. 29 2007,15:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (burjennio @ Oct. 29 2007,14:18)
Quote 
Let's look at it this way, Arsenal reached the Champions League final in 2006 (and lost), they won FA last season and this season they are looking strong contenders for the title. We won the Champions League in 2005, improved in league form in 2005/6 and have lost our way a little with a Champions League final defeat and no trophies. Maybe next season we will emulate the goners having lost a CL final, won nothing and then be top the next season after ten games but somehow I suspect we won't.



Er, Chelsea won the FA Cup last season mate, Arsenal won squat

I think when he says FA he means F*ck All mate   

Oh feck youre right!!    Sorry all, but Im an idiot by trade

[Emerald Red]

It's as simple as this: if the league is priority, and we haven't yet won  it under Rafa in 3 years, then NO progress has been made. Same goes for any manager that comes in. Fail to win the league regardless of points, and there's been no progress. End of.

Cups are a different matter, and when you think about it, the likes of Spurs or even West Ham can make those finals, so go figure. And if it's the CL in question, then years ago we had to have made the best possible progress in the league to even get near it to win it i.e like actually being champions of your league first and foremost. Obviously.

[ConnO'var]

There you go, the graph doesnt lie

Nice work Connovar.

Thanks mate.... Nothing better to do in my hotel room.. 

For what it's worth, IMO we have improved under Rafa. Maybe not so much in terms of a tangible, measurable way... ie Results.

But there have been intangible improvements.

1. We've cut off a lot of the deadwood
2. We have had more influence in signing of Spanish players as its quite obvious its an advantage having a Spanish manager. We'd have never been able to sign Alonso and Torres otherwise, I feel.
3. Anfield is slowly but surely is becoming a fortress again.

I may not like his methods but given the choice of him and Houllier? It's Rafa everytime.


























Now, if it was between Rafa and Dalglish/Hiddink..... then that's an altogether different story....


** runs and ducks for cover! **

[Paul C]

There you go, the graph doesnt lie

Nice work Connovar.

Anfield is slowly but surely is becoming a fortress again.

We've drawn 3 and lost 1 of our last 4 home games 

[account deleted by request]

For me the key improvements under Rafa have been :-

Moving Carra to CB
Reina, a totally different class goalkeeper to Dudek
Better squad strength (maybe not so much improvement in the first team as I would have liked though)
Not as much reliance on Gerrard now as we had on Owen then (if that makes sense?)
Tactically, I would like to say yes we have improved, but our failure against the other top teams leads me to have doubts. Definately better tactically in Europe under Rafa anyway

One point I failed to make :-

Transfers  while they have both spent similar amounts of money

Rafael Benítez bought 45 players for £126,296,000
Gerard Houllier bought 40 players for £125,400,000

I don't think there can be any argument over who wasted the most, with Houllier buying more cr@p by the proverbial mile than Rafa has managed.

[ConnO'var]

There you go, the graph doesnt lie

Nice work Connovar.

Anfield is slowly but surely is becoming a fortress again.

We've drawn 3 and lost 1 of our last 4 home games 

That's true mate.... but I was looking at the bigger picture over the last 3 years and only in the league... did not look at our results in the cup competitions....

We've won 75.8% of the available points at home to date since Rafa took over. For me, that's nothing to sniff at.... to put things into perspective, 75.8% means....

42 wins
15 draws
5 losses (only 1 loss in each of the last 2 seasons btw... to Chelsea and Man Utd... both teams ended up as eventual champions for the respective seasons)

from 2004/5 to now.

Looks pretty d@mn good to me.

[Bammo]

The graph is really interesting. It's suprising to see that Rafa hasn't done that much better in the league than Houllier. It would be interesting to see the total league points in comparison. In fact, here they are:

Season Pos Pld Won Drawn Lost GF GA GD Points

Rafa:

2007–2008* 6 10 5 5 0 17 6 11 20
2006–2007 3 38 20 8 10 57 27 30 68
2005–2006 3 38 25 7 6 57 25 32 82
2004–2005 5 38 17 7 14 52 41 11 58

Houllier:

2003–2004 4 38 16 12 10 55 37 18 60
2002–2003 5 38 18 10 10 61 41 20 64
2001–2002 2 38 24 8 6 67 30 37 80
2000–2001 3 38 20 9 9 71 39 32 69
1999–2000 4 38 19 10 9 51 30 21 67
1998–1999 7 38 15 9 14 68 49 19 54


Compared to the league leaders we haven't improved that much but under Rafa we get more points per season than under Houllier.

There's no doubt in my mind that we've improved the squad and standard of football (not by much though). What we haven't improved is our consistency. As has been mentioned, under Houllier we did better against the other big clubs. While this has got worse under Benitez, we have improved against mid-table teams. Under both managers we still struggle against some of the lower teams (Birmingham etc).

Rafa hasn't been helped by injuries but he needs to play form players. I'm a fan of Kuyt but he hasn't performed for ages so he should be dropped. He's low on confidence and seemingly avoids getting into goal-scoring positions in case he misses.

Taking injuries into account and assuming Agger is fit for next week, my first XI would now be:

                   Reina

Finnan  Carragher Agger  Arbeloa

Benayoun   Gerrard     Mascherano  Aurelio

             Crouch  Babel


Edit: Because I gave Houllier Rafa's 1st season in charge.

[ConnO'var]

but under Rafa we get more points per season than under Houllier.

Mate,

Not to be @nal or defensive or anything.... but IMO, that particular stat doesn't really say much. More important is the gap between us and the ones who finish above us. As that improves, then we can safely conclude that we're improving.

Looking at total points gained can be inconclusive as it just means that we're further ahead of the rest of the pack but may not mean that we've closed in on the top of the pack....

Remember, they're improving too...

2 p worth at any rate...

[account deleted by request]

I would take the first year out of your calculations Bammo as it was a split year (Evans and Houllier). Just my opinion mate

As for the rest, one outstanding season for each of them (80pts 2nd) for Houllier, (82pts 3rd) for Rafa.

[Bammo]

I put those stats up to give a more rounded view. Sometimes there are seasons when the league winners do unusually well points-wise so the gap is maintained even though we improved. Alternatively we may get more points but be further behind. Swings and roundabouts I guess...

Under both managers our goal difference is relatively poor, mainly due to our defensive approach. To be honest, the stats can be summed up by saying there's not much difference between Rafa and Houllier!

The only difference I can see is potential. Under Houllier we had an average squad who performed to an average level (compared to past Liverpool sides). Under Rafa we have a potentially great squad who are performing averagely. In no way do I think we should sack Rafa but it's frustrating to see players off-form getting chosen above in-form players.

[Wilhelmsson]

A couple more years under Houllier and we would have been a top ten team by now.

I think you’ve lost the plot with that statement.

[Bad Bob]

A couple more years under Houllier and we would have been a top ten team by now.

I think you’ve lost the plot with that statement.

How's that?

Given Houllier's penchant for signing decidedly average players and then sticking with them come hell or high water, I would also think we would have struggled mightily to stay in the UEFA places, let alone qualify for the Champions League if he had remained in charge.